Dear Lord, What Have I Done?
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Rants & Reviews
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/18/03
**Image removed
Ugh. God damn, have I fucked up. I’ve fucked up big time. I can’t believe how big I’ve fucked up. In the history of fuck-ups, this is the biggest fuck-up to ever fuck. And I am being completely serious here.
What am I talking about you ask?
Well, it all comes down to a girl (doesn’t it always?). A girl that I swore I’d never talk to again. A girl who’s been a cause of much joy and dismay in my life. A girl who I shall refer to as: Ellyn.
Now, I met Ellyn while I was in college. A buddy of mine who had graduated was living in a town about an hour outside of campus, so one weekend I went out to visit him. When I got there, Ellyn was in his apartment wearing low-hugging jeans and a Playboy tanktop, vacuuming his apartment. She was a cute girl, with Bugs-Bunny like buck teeth and just the right amount of trailer park in her to make her hot (at least by mid-west standards).
This was back when I was in AFC mode, mind you. I don’t know what I did, but for some reason, Ellyn took a liking to me. Looking back on it, I remember being quite ambivalent to her, and more than a little derisive — as in not taking any of her shit. She just wasn’t hot enough in my book to warrant being too nice.
Top that off with the fact that she was a former stripper, single mom, and a cokehead, and you got yourself a winner! But for some reason, no matter what I did, she just seemed to fall for me even more. We ended up cuddling on my buddy’s couch while watching Perversions 5, a porno I had picked up for the trip. Romantic, I know =)
Anyways, whenever I’d come back to visit my friend, she’d be sure to show up. One time she brought her kid along and I ended up playing with the little fucker, so I guess she thought she’d found the perfect man. But knowing a train wreck when I see one, I decided to stay away from this catch regardless of the boner she was able to give me.
As things go, Ellyn ended up getting in a car accident. Well, not “accident” per say. She jumped out of a moving van while coked out of her mind and ended up getting her head run over.
Yes. Her head.
Anyway, this being the 3rd (count ‘em. 3rd.) near death experience for poor Ellyn, she was miraculously able to survive and was rushed to the hospital, where she lay in a coma for upwards of 4 months with a broken jaw and brain damage. I heard the news and wished I had taken the opportunity to hit that before this unfortunate accident (no strings you know?) but also felt sorry for her and her kid.
So time passes, and suddenly, I get a call from my buddy. He informs me that right before they were set to pull Ellyn off life support, she came out of the coma. Not only that, but she suffered from amnesia. She knew who she was and all that, but didn’t remember her family, friends, or even her kid.
She did, however, remember me.
Now, this is somewhat flattering news. For some reason, I was the one guy in her life worth remembering. My ego at the time was fragile enough to melt at this fact, as crazy as it sounds. So my buddy asked if it was okay to give Ellyn my number. After this kind of news, I could hardly refuse.
So Ellyn starts calling me and we have a long distance relationship over the phone. She tells me she is healing up, the brain damage is not so bad, and that she wants to see me. So I decide “What the fuck? I’ll give her a treat.” So I travel down to her mom’s house where she’s living and meet up with her. I’m surprised to see that other than a scar on her neck, she looks EXACTLY the same as she did before. I was expecting the fucking Mask when I appeared, but this wasn’t so bad. She still had the cute Bugs Bunny smile and blonde hair which I’m a sucker for. She did gain a bit of weight at the hospital, but nothing too bad.
So I do what any normal, healthy, college male would do with a chick who’s totally into him. I took her out for a nice dinner and got her shit-faced drunk. We end up going at it in the back seat of my car outside of Denny’s at 3 in the morning. No intercourse for some reason (which I’ll discover later), but I had fun regardless.
So the next couple months we are sort-of “seeing” each other. But it gets to the point where I can’t fucking stand this girl. See, the thing about Ellyn is that she is the quintessential DRAMA QUEEN! She needs drama in her life, and if it isn’t there, she will create it. Not only that, but the girl was so emotionally fucked up, that she needed guys to get angry with her to get sexually aroused (conditioning, anyone?). However, I was a nice guy who didn’t really give a shit about her, so I never fell for her tricks to bait me into anger, though I probably could have had a lot more sex if I had.
I learned a lot from Ellyn, mostly about women and drama. It’s fascinating to me to look back and analyze the adventures and fights we had together. But the fact of the matter is the girl is annoying as SHIT and I couldn’t put up with her, but I was too nice to just dump this poor girl. After all, I was the only thing she remembered after GETTING HER HEAD RUN OVER!
So I break it off gently, remain friends, and move out to California. She’d call me occasionally to tell me she got engaged (ended in divorce, of course). Then she starts emailing me all the time. Finally, I can’t take it anymore, and I send her this email in response to one she sent me:
Hey brat,
>how are you doing? me?
How am I doing you??? OMG, that’s so forward. I mean, who’s face you picture when you masterbate is your own business, but if you want to fantasize about it, I guess I could be doing you doggie style. I’m flexible like that.
>how is work going for you?
I dunno. It sure is a lot of work doing you doggie style. I got lots of stamina, but you are totally wearing me out. Where’s my viagra?
>guess what? next week i am going to arizona.
Arizona is cool. Beware the rattlesnakes.
>my aunt is in this week from arizona along with my grandparents from XXXX, and then next week i am going to my aunt’s house in XXXX. i am so excited. i can’t wait.
Yes, it does a body good to get away from the East Coast.
>my aunt, my mom, my brother and i went to karaoke last nigt and i had a ball.
So what sounded like a cat dying a slow painful death was really just you singing? Man, you better just stick to doggie style, its what you’re good at.
>they wouldn’t let me drink because the doctors said that i am not suppose to but i still had a blast.
You drink like a fish, and much more fun drunk than sober. What do doctors know anyway?
>it was probably the most fun i have ever had sober…
Except that time you banged those four midgets in the back of that truck. I still have the video. =P
>this week i am in XXXXXXX until saturday (that is when i go home to XXXXXXX) and then on tuesday i leave for arizona.
Yay! Hope your plane doesn’t crash in a fireball of molten steel.
>my aunt said that she would take me to mexico and possibly california.
South of the boarder, eh? She’s not going to turn you into a mule and make you smuggle drugs across the boarder is she? I hear you have to shove those things up your ass to get them past customs. How many of those can you fit up your butt? Better start practicing.
>she also said that she is going to take me to this prison (knowing that i used to be a correctional officer)
Only if you get caught with the drugs up the butt. Try not eating any ruffage so you don’t have to poo. Then she’s got nothing on you and you can totally stay out of jail.
>because it is one of the oldest prisons in the country. i can’t wait.
I hear prison changes a man. But since you’re a woman, I guess that doesn’t matter. Women in prison have it easy, they just have lots of sex and walk around naked. At least that’s what Cinemax tells me, and TV wouldn’t lie… would it???
>with your work, do you get out much?
Every night.
>have you met a good many friends or acquaitances?
Tons.
>have you talked to XXX or XXXXXXX? how are they?
Yes. Both are doing very good.
>i really do hope that life is treating to grand.
Only when I’m doing it doggie style.
>i really hope to hear from you soon.
Was this soon enough?
>well i will talk to you soon.
I don’t wanna talk to you until you break your sex addiction. You really have to stop fantasizing about me like that. I’m more than just a sausage with feet, okay? I’m a human being and I don’t appreciate being objectified as a sex object, so you better quit that right now, missy! Don’t make me get a restraining order, now. =)
luv & kisses
Thundercat
Okay, obviously I was being a dick. In fact, I was doing so many things in that email to berate her and play on her insecurities, I was positive that it would be the last I would ever hear from this crazy, fucked up girl again!
And it was!
At least until tonight. I was going to call a friend and I hit the wrong number in my address book on my phone and guess who I call?
Ellyn.
She picks up the phone and knows it’s me because of her caller ID. She is so fucking excited to hear from me, it’s heartbreaking. She’s even telling her mom I’ve finally called. I, of course, am shocked that I actually hit her number our of all the ones in my fucking phone. She picks up on this and asks if I meant to call her, to which I lie through my teeth.
“Oh, uh, yeah baby. I want to call to tell you… uh, I’d be in DC for Christmas.”
It was the only thing I could think to say, and I knew instantly it was a mistake (mostly because it was the truth). Ellyn is in Maryland, and its close enough to drive to. So she starts getting all hopped up, telling me she’s been really good and not doing any drugs or alcohol. Her divorce to her second husband is final, and the court had taken away her kid in favor of his father so she doesn’t have any of the matriarchal duties she had before. Not only that, but she’s going back to school to learn, of all things, LABOTOMY. I’m not joking.
So I tease her about being a brain surgeon with brain damage, and she says that it’s only one class a semester so it should be easy. I remind her it’s a course on LABOTOMY, but it doesn’t compute. Oh well.
So she brings up the e-mail and I tell her I was just fucking with her. Then she says:
Her: So you’ll be in DC?
Me: Yeah.
Her: Would you like to see me? I’d really like to see you.
Me: Maybe.
Her: I’ll pay for the hotel room.
So what she just said sinks in, and the governor (I call him the “governor”) stands at attention. An open invite for sex! What boner can resist? Even if it is from a crazy girl from my college days, it is inviting. Though she has informed me that she’s around 180 lbs now but it doesn’t look like she weighs that much. Oh, and she has genital warts (hence the constant LMR in our relationship).
Still, the invite is appealing. I’ll have to do a bit or research on Genital Warts, but this fat, brain damaged, ex-stripper could totally, totally be mine. And knowing what I know now, I could get her to do anything I want.
Anything.
But I am a bit conflicted. I know that I do not love or even respect this girl very much, which is probably the reason she finds me so attractive. But it would be nice to go home for Christmas with some guaranteed poon waiting, even if it is a bit diseased.
What do you guys think?
Thundercat
Zen, and the Art of Opening
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Tips & Tricks
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/18/03
Okay all you wannabees. Here is an article I wrote a few months back for Cliff’s List on approaching women. Its not my best work to date, but it should get you started off in the right direction as far as upping your game to the next level. Obviously, if you can already approach worth a damn, you might very well get nothing from this post, so go back to looking at your internet pornography. I know i will. =)
Thundercat
*************************************************************
Zen, and the Art of Opening
An Essay on Approaching Women, by Thundercat
A butterfly flaps its wings, the breeze it creates sends a puff of pollen from a nearby flower into the air, causing a rhinoceros to sneeze. The sound of that sneeze causes a herd of zebras to stampede, disrupting the flow of wind current, which helps create a hurricane in the South Pacific, which causes American Airlines to cancel their flights that night, which means the girl of your dreams is forced to stay in town for one more day. You find her at your favorite bar with her friends, partying away her borrowed time.
Now what?
Though fate may have acted in your favor up to this point by doing the exact things necessary to get that exact girl to show up in that exact location at the exact same time that you would be there, the fact remains that it is now up to you to take action.
The idea of “opening” is the notion of approaching a woman with the express intent of engaging her in a conversation. By doing so, you then make her more receptive to talking to you, effectively opening her up for further interaction.
The “opener” is a line that is used to initiate the conversation. It is often the first sentence exchanged between the man and the woman he desires. “Pick-up Lines” are forms of openers, but openers can be anything to get the girl talking.
But there is more to opening than knowing what to say. Indeed, the process of “opening” a girl can be quite involved. The first thing to be aware of when opening a girl is the concept of “active disinterest.”
Now, those two words may seem rather nonsequiter or paradoxical when matched together. But there is an important reason why those two words should be matched together.
Have you ever been out and about, maybe in a bar or a club, and you see a beautiful woman. And after spotting said woman, you simply stand there, waiting for her to notice you and approach you? So you sit around trying to act cool, acting like you don’t see her, projecting a confident, macho attitude you hope is magnetic enough to get her attention?
Now, ask yourself how often that works.
This is an example of “inactive disinterest.” The opposite of this is when you actually take the action necessary to become noticed by the woman, while still portraying that disinterested attitude. Hence, “active disinterest.”
But why act disinterested? Obviously, you’re attracted to the girl, otherwise you wouldn’t be bothering to approach her. But put yourself in their position for a moment:
Imagine going through your average day, and being approached by a number of people who compliment you on your looks, your clothing, or an accessory of some sort, all because they want something from you. Kind of cheapens those compliments, doesn’t it? Especially when the seventh person of the day comes up and tells you how cool your purse is.
This is the reality of women, especially beautiful women. Women know men want to have sex with them. They get untold offers every day to have sex. Guy after guy will approach with that exact goal in mind. So girls, naturally, become accustomed to rejecting advances that telegraph intent, much the same way you might respond to a vagrant asking for change as you walk to work. You know what he is going to ask and you are prepared not to give it to him.
When you approach a woman and say “Hey baby, lookin’ good tonight,” you are telegraphing interest in an aggressive manor. By the same token, when you sheepishly approach and say “Hello. May I please buy you a drink?” you are not only telegraphing interest, but also doing so in a very wimpy way.
But when you enter with disinterest, you are neutral. You do not telegraph interest while neither coming off aggressive nor coming off wimpy. You are simply “Neutral.”
But being neutral simply isn’t enough, you must be engaging. Otherwise you run the risk of making the girl bored and having her walk away.
The best way to engage someone for the first time is by asking their opinion on something. When doing so, you are able to get them to invest their own personal thoughts and feelings into your burgeoning conversation. And once that’s invested, they are more likely to commit themselves to the interaction.
A neutral opinion opener can be anything that does not telegraph interest, while presenting options to your target that helps to encourage them to give and expand upon their opinion.
Examples of this are:
- Which was better, Star Wars or the Empire Strikes Back?
- Which do you prefer – Barbie or Skipper?
- Do you like coffee or tea better?
- Which is better – Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi?
- What’s cooler to listen to – 80′s music or 90′s music?
Each of the above openers are neutral, and they both ask an opinion. But if you use these openers before you have caught your target’s interest, you run the risk of having to repeat yourself, so it is preferable to preface each neutral opinion opener with an “attention grabber.” This can be as simple as:
Hey guys, I need an opinion on something…
or
Yo guys, check this out…
These will engage the target and get them to listen for the opener. Attention Grabbers do not really need to be processed by the brain, they just have to be loud enough to be heard. But note that it is still important for them to be neutral. This is apparent by keeping the words “girls” or “ladies” out of them. By saying such, you draw attention to the fact that you are a man approaching them, and are most likely looking for sex. Rather, you want to get in the habit of referring to the girl you open in a neutral yet friendly term, like “guy” or “dude.”
It is important to note that you want to avoid attention grabbers that come off too needy or wimpy. By starting off with “Excuse me,” or “Pardon me,” you are presupposing you are interrupting her and asking her permission to engage her, when in fact, it is much more powerful and effective to engage her without asking permission.
So when you approach a woman with active disinterest, and you use a neutral opinion opener, you are increasing your chances of engaging the woman, and minimized that probability she will reject you.
Thundercat
My Dinner With TheOne
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under News
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/18/03
Okay, so one of the perks of living in Los Angeles is that I get to hang out with some of the best of the best of the best that the seduction community has to offer. Los Angeles seems to be the Mecca for Pick-Up Artists, probably because of the constant influx of fresh-off-the-bus poon, mixed with the hippest night scene in the U.S. (shut up New York), and a healthy dose of celebrity elitism, and you got yourself a virtual PUA playground.
One of the PUAs out here is TheOne, who used to be called Maverick, but I guess he decided a name that started with “The” was more memorable. Anyway, some of you may recognize TheOne as a fairly regular instructor at the Real Social Dynamic’s workshop. (Perhaps he changed his name because of all the gay TOP GUN jokes hurled at him by being Tyler’s wing? Who knows.) Regardless, TheOne was one of the first instructors I ever had. It was him and Tyler who took my out my first night in the LA Mystery Method Workshop about 5 months ago (Has it been that long? Dunno. Gotta lay off the drugs).
As far as Game goes, TheOne is far from the best there is, but he’s a pretty solid dude who does get laid (though looking like Sylvester Stallone from “Cobra” doesn’t hurt, I’m sure). So I like the guy enough to agree to have dinner with him when he calls me up a few days ago.
TheOne picks me up from work, and this is the first time I get to see him in his non-peacocking gear, which usually consists of black PVC pants and a form fitting black shirt, along with the occasional leather arm band. Instead, he’s just in sweatpants and a muscle shirt, having just come from the gym (whether he was trying to impress me or not, who knows? =)
So we go to this Hawaiian BBQ place I know of and sit down for a nice dinner. It’s cool hanging out with TheOne because unlike hanging out with someone like Mystery, I do not feel a pressure to sarge. There’s nothing worse than trying to relax and enjoy a meal with the feeling that you should be gaming the waitresses and any female patron in sight, which is often an unfortunate side-effect of hanging with a juggernaught of PUA such as Mystery.
Anyway, we talk about a lot of things. Community gossip, sticking points in our game, financial troubles, work woes, and JFK assassination theories. In a way, it was a real eye opening experience for me because it had been a while since I’d hung out with someone from the community in a strictly “non-sarge” capacity. It was just two dudes chilling in a restaurant enjoying some good food.
The thought struck me how funny it is that at the end of the day, we’re all just a bunch of regular guys. On the internet, it’s so easy to attain “celebrity” or “guru” status just as long as you post prolifically and are able to spell above a kindergarten level. In fact, there are a lot of guys out there who claim to be “seducers” or “pick-up artists”who never fucking leave their computer.
My dinner with TheOne made me realize just how many guys I’ve hung out with from the community. Not only that, but hung out with them enough to see the internet persona go by the wayside and get a sense of the real people underneath. And the truth is, once you get down to it, someone like Mystery, Style, Tyler Durden, Papa, TheOne, Swinggcat, and anyone else out there you read about (I’m including me in this) is pretty much just like every other guy out there.
This includes you, dear reader.
In fact, I get a lot of emails from guys saying how amazing I am and asking when/if I’ll ever do another workshop. I find it odd how that works, because by any stretch of the imagination, I am NOT as good as some of these other guys when it comes to PUA, though I am better than others. But to many of us in the community, PUA is a very small part of our lives. Indeed, I have many other aspects of my life that I pursue, but PUA is a small (albeit important) part of my overall existence.
My point here is this: Whether you are an AFC, RAFC, BAFC, or any other ridiculous acronym, chances are you are on par with most of the guys you read about.
What does this mean?
Simple. If you guys are no different than us, then that means that you can easily be doing what we’re doing, which is going out and learning to pick-up girls.
Obviously, this is easier said than done. Lots of guys are still suffering in this area, and in a way, that’s where people like TheOne and I stand out. We have been able to overcome our fears and insecurities to the point where we are able to engage this area of our life with vigor and persistence most men can only dream of.
So in the coming days, weeks, months, or however long it takes, I’m going to be posting some stuff on how to help your inner game and how to start off approaching women. I’ll give some examples, some theory, and maybe even a few homework assignments for you truly committed out there. Hopefully I’ll even receive a few success stories to post up on the Lair.
In short, if I can do it, and TheOne can do it, you certainly can too.
Then you can open your own workshop and give Tyler a run for his money. =)
Thundercat
Not Into Games? Bullshit.
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Analysis
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/17/03
Someone on the PLAY list just asked a question that really caught my attention, because it is such a typical girl thing to talk about. Basically, it was the idea of “girls” and their hatred of “games.” Like when a girl says she’s “not into games.” Now, when a girl says this, the question on every guy’s mind is: What is she saying?
Some guys will take it at face value and try to appease her by not playing any “games” with her, adjusting their approach to suit the information she gives them. Other guys may look at this like a shit test and barrel through with lots of games and frustrate the girl into “next”-ing them.
So what’s the right tactic to use in this case? Is she lying? Telling the truth? What’s going on here?
The answer is this: Women are not into the IDEA of games, but don’t believe a word they say. They are ALL into games.
Basically, no one likes the bullshit that goes on in the manipulation that occurs between men and women, and make no mistake about it, there is manipulation going on in every relationship — especially one that involves sex.
You basically have two different factors at battle constantly in these situations — the sexual and the relationship. Women control the sexual power and men control the relationship power. Women do not like it when men are able to get them to give up their sexual power and then not return the relationship power. Men, on the other hand, do not like it when they give
up their relationship power and the women do not reciprocate with the sexual power.
That is what they mean when they say “Not into games.” That means they want to get what they want from the man. The only thing is, as soon as the man gives them what they want, chances are good they will lose interest. So when the girls go for a guy who knows this, they get upset because he’s “playing games.” Never do they realize that that’s the thing that
probably attracted her in the first place.
So rule #1: Never listen to what a girl tells you she wants. Notice what she responds to. The things they say and the things they respond to are two COMPLETELY different things.
However, I do not look at this as a shit test. I look at it as a sexual barrier (something Swinggcat will be talking about in future newsletters of his). Sexual barriers are obstacles women put up to keep you from doing what they KNOW is effective on them. Its a safeguard of sorts that when broken down, will get you EXACTLY what you want.
The funny thing about these barriers are that when they are presented to you, there are two ways around them. One is to bang your head against the barrier until it breaks, and the other is to skirt behind the barrier and enter in through the back door.
So when a barrier is presented to me, I look at it like the girl is telling me EXACTLY what I need to do to get her. If she says she’s not into games, what she’s really telling me is that games are what has been effective on her in the past. Therefore, that is what you have to do if you want to get her.
Confused yet?
Thundercat
Fuck Challenges
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Analysis
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/17/03
Okay, so my little tirade on “drama” lead to a discussion about how Men need challenges like Women need drama. Personally, I found this notion quite stupid. It sounds like something only someone with no understanding of actual people would say. Obviously, I’m not much of an authority either, but in my personal experiences, men don’t need challenge to be happy like women need drama to be happy. To men, challenge is a sporting event. Its a puzzle, its a game, its a distraction. To women, drama is an ingrained part of life (obviously, I speak in generalizations. Not ALL women crave drama 24/7. But they do crave differing amounts).
So my reply to such a statement was thus:
Men don’t crave challenges. They crave pussy. It just
so happens getting pussy is usually a challenge. In
fact, its TOO much of a challenge for most men.
That’s why we’re here.So fuck challenges. I want results.
Thundercat
Now, of course, my unique style of “in your face” reality didn’t sit well with a few of the armchair seducers out there. I get lame reframes in reply saying shit like “Oh you just wanna get your dick wet” and “your lack of honest introspection doesn’t help anyone” and other lame crap. In fact, I had someone suggest that I carry around a rubber latex “pussy in a bottle.” Ah, the SS List! You have to love the advice!
Anyway, I hold fast to my point — fuck challenges. Now, its true, it may sound like a bitter decry from someone who likes to whine and complain about the difficulty of getting laid. But allow me to clarify. I do not like challenges when it comes to getting NECESSITIES of life. Challenges getting food, shelter, and water are not fun, nor are they conducive to a healthy lifestyle. Same thing with sex. I look at sex much like other vital functions such as breathing, urinating, and taking a shit. It is a necessary human action. Men need to ejaculate. It is a NECESSITY to do so. Failure to do so can lead to disease and other medical problems. In fact, when men do not ejaculate, the body finds a way to do so on its own, through the use of “wet dreams” and such.
So to me, challenges when it comes to sex are bullshit. The only thing that matters is results.
However, that said, challenges are good when it comes to things like RELATIONSHIPS. Challenge in relationships keep things fresh. Challenge in the workplace or with a video game or whatever can be good to. But those things are LUXURIES. They are ENTERTAINMENT. They are based on your own personal AMBITION. They are NOT based on necessity.
The fact of the matter is that there are so many guys out there NOT getting laid, that to tell them they need more challenge is like taking a hammer to their balls. Its a fucking ridiculous statement to make, and one that flies in the face of everything we’re studying.
In fact, the very notion of a challenge is counterproductive to seduction. A challenge is a frame where you are put in a situation where you must work for something that is “prized” to you, to use Swinggcat terminology. You add value to something that challenges you. So when you’re going after pussy, and its a challenge, that pussy’s value is raised in your eyes, and that’s where the problem lies. This value is reflected in a guy’s nervousness around women. In the stutters when he talks to chicks. In the sweaty palms when he sits next to a pretty girl. Challenge is what creates this state.
The best guys in terms of seduction are guys who do not care about the outcome. They could give two shits if they get laid or not. So when they do get laid, it seems easy because that was not their goal. In these cases, there is an absence of challenge. It does not exist for these men. Yet they still have as much fun and enjoy the same success as a guy who tackles a challenge and works his butt off for it. Now, which would you rather have?
Personally, I’m a lazy bastard. I prefer the absence of challenge short of the occasional game of Warcraft 3. And I definitely prefer its absence when it comes to poon.
That’s why they call me…
Thundercat
Drama and the Women Who Love It
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Analysis
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/17/03
Okay, so a conversation I had dealing with open loops opened up into a conversation about women’s need for drama. In part, this is because I feel open loops create a tension that most women crave, because they are emotional crackheads. They feed off emotion, and the strongest forms of emotion are the bad ones. So Budec from the SS list asked me to expound further on this thought. So I’m reposting this here for your viewing pleasure:
Well, you have to understand that to most women, being on a hellish emotional rollercoaster is equivalent to being content and happy.
The thing is, us men are logical creatures. We naturally think “Well, we have no drama in our lives, so this is good. I can sit down, watch a football game, and be content. There are no problems to deal with.” That is our logic talking, because as men, if we see a problem, be it a practical or emotional one, we naturally — LOGICALLY — look to fix it.
Women, on the other hand, are emotional. The absence of drama means the absence of emotion. Without it, they get bored and are NOT content. So when they have no drama in their lives they seek to create it. In their minds, they think “Well, I have drama in my life, so this is good. I can call up my best friend and we have something to talk about for two hours. And then, I can call up my boyfriend and because of the information I got from my best friend, we have something to argue about for four hours. Then I can call all my other friends and talk about what I argued about for the next three days…”
The thing about emotions is that they are a high. Be they good emotions or troublesome ones, they can be addictive. This is why make-up sex is often so revered, because it is the ultimate emotional release after the culmination of a very charged rollercoaster of feelings.
Women often NEED this type of thing to feel happy, to stay interested, etc. A lot of guys I know who are in happy long term relationships often create drama for the women they are with. It works out for both parties because the women get the emotions they crave and stay interested but the men, at the same time, are in control of the situation because they are aware of what they are doing.
When you boil all this seduction and pick-up stuff down to its core, all you are really left with is the manipulation of emotion. That’s all this is. Once you are conscious of this, women become less of a mystery, because you realize that by charging these emotions, giving them the highs they desire (and then taking those highs away), gives you the power and makes you the one they pursue.
If you look at what women do to men to get US so turned-around, its all a series of emotional highs and lows that they instinctively do, and it sucks us in just as it sucks in other women. The only difference is that we as men do not know how to handle this tactic because we are so logical. To us, once a solution is offered, the problems should be fixed. But to women, the solution isn’t fixing the problem, rather, its creating a new problem that nullifies the old one.
Often times, when I’m talking to a woman or a female friend, they’ll start rambling on and on about stupid problems and drama that occur in their daily lives. Things about how men are ass holes, or what this girl said about her behind her back, etc. I’ve learned that when I would talk to them about these things from an emotional standpoint, like saying shit such as “Oh man, how does that make you feel?” as opposed to offering a solution to their problems, they respond so much better. In fact, if you want to get really evil, you can even create more drama by antagonizing them about their stances on these dramatic issues in their lives and get them all riled up.
Either way, my point is that emotion is the building block of attraction, and the negative emotions are much more powerful and attention grabbing *initially* than the positive emotions. When you use these in tandem, the positive emotions are much more powerful and noticeable. This is what girls crave. This is why they want drama. And this is how expert seducers play the game.
Well, at least that’s how I play it.
Thundercat
The SS List — Beating a Dead Horse
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Analysis
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/17/03
For years, the Speed-Seduction list has been in operation. For a while, it was awesome. There was a real influx of talented seducers there coming up with “nuclear” stuff to use on chicks. Things like “The Warmth Builder,” “Riker’s 3 Rules,” and the amazing “takeaway” abounded. But then the star student turned out to be a con man and one of Ross’s fallen angels went off and started up the competition. Not only that, but fastseduction.com and mASF opened things up for more than just Ross’s products. Since that time, the SS list has endured, but it is a shadow of what it used to be.
Like Freddy screaming at Jason, whenever I open my e-mail to find posts from the SS list in there, I can’t help but yell at the screen “WHY WON’T YOU DIE???!!!!” And then proceed to delete 99.9% of the posts, occasionally reading one that catches my eye until I realize why it is that I bother to delete most of these posts, and then proceed to kill that one as well.
The thing is, even though the SS list isn’t what it used to be, SS isn’t what it used to be either. Gone are the days where you could memorize 40 patterns and steamroll a girl into a subnamuble trance and start fondling her right away. The new SS has degenerated into tailoring shit to the girl you are seducing, which cuts your success rate down to 30% at the least. Because of this, most of the guys who have progressed in their game have opted to leave SS behind for greener pastures. What does this mean?
Simple. There are no “good” seducers on the SS list anymore. It truly is the blind leading the blind, with newbies who haven’t even finished listening to the BHSC giving advice to other newbies, therefore insuring nobody really knows what they are doing. The fact that some of the best threads on there are discussing shit that was brought up in Swinggcat’s book doesn’t help matters.
What I’m wondering is — will it get any better? Will Ross lock himself away in a closet for 6 months and re-emerge with a new form a Speed Seduction — one that actually WORKS and is a viable alternative to DYD, MM, and any of the other 6 billion forms of PUA that have sprung up since the good ol’ days? Will SMART people actually join the SS list and start posting good shit again? Or should this list be killed or die quietly? Honestly, I haven’t seen ANYTHING good come from that list since the days Bishop was posting, and he made up all his shit. Kind of says something doesn’t it?
I think my biggest problem with the SS list comes from the fact that there are actually guys out there who are genuinely in need of help and wanting to learn, and they look at all the crap that’s passing for advice on this list because they don’t know any better, and it only ends up making their situation worse because they follow the poor advice that is given. In fact, most recently, the only person on there I’ve seen give somewhat good advice is Tom Vizzini (when he’s not hocking 3D Mind or any of that other crap, that is).
I hope Ross wakes up to the fact that his list is slowly degenerating into what Apple became in the 80s and early 90s, which is a steaming pile of crap, a shell of what it once was. I hope he starts putting some quality control on his list and his products, and starts dealing with the REALITY of seduction instead of the idealized NLP version of it. I hope he actually steps up to the plate and starts teaching guys what they need to know instead of fairy tales. But then again, that may be too much work.
In the meantime, I’ll just keep deleting my SS posts.
Thundercat
Rave Reviews on ASF
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under News
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03
Okay, so back at the DYD seminar in Chicago, I was tapped to be a guest instructor at the Papa/TD/Orion workshop. It was the first time I had ever really gone out instructing people in a “professional” capacity. I mean, I’ve been out bootcamping some local guys on Sunset here in LA, but this was a workshop people were paying for, so I felt a certain pressure to do my best with helping the students to learn.
Anyway, I was referred to a review of the workshop one of the student’s put up on ASF. The review is pretty good and fairly accurate from what I remember, even if the guy’s observations about the instructors are a bit off.
Anyway, here’s what he writes about me:
“I meet up with Thundercat. Very cool dude. He says “Go approach that set. Say ‘female opinion: who lies more, men or women?’, then come back.” I do just that, chat the 3-set up for a few minutes more, then return to him for more assignments. He says “Go tell that girl on the dancefloor ‘Settle down! you’re going to make the other girls jealous!’” I do. Girl responds very well. Then she gives me a salute and yes “Yes, Sir!” She’s smiling big and into it. I go back for more assignments. Thundercat says go open 3 more sets with the opinion opener. I open two more sets. One girl avoided me, as she was ordering a drink. I return, tell Thundercat what happened. He asks how I feel. I said I hate being blown out, but that I feel fine and it’s not going to prevent me from approaching more.” No big deal he says. If it doesn’t work well, just say “nice meeting you” to leave the door open for future sarges with her.
I really wish we had time to give a background of ourselves at the lecture, but there wasn’t time in the mini-workshop. I think all the instructors think all the students are AFCs. I wish I had told Thundercat about my experience, as I was hanging in sets well, but I figured, Hell, I’m here to learn what these guys have to teach, so I want to use their openers, their techniques. I was hoping for more advanced assignments from him like “go get a kiss from that girl within 5 minutes!” That would have been cool, but he was off working with other students by then.”
LOL. Go kiss a girl in 5 minutes! Most of these guys can’t even TALK to women, let alone kiss them. But this dude definitely stood out as someone who was comfortable in a club scene. I do remember him being a bit more upset about getting blown out than he made it out to be. He came up stuttering and looking a bit flustered, so I pulled him to the side and calmed him down. If his writing style says anything about him, its that he could be a real presence on ASF if he ups his field outtings. You can read the whole thread here:
http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/read?118549,24
I find it a fascinating read because it came from a truly neutral source. This was a dude who didn’t know any of us, least of all me, yet he gave me good reviews on my teaching style. I guess there’s a twinge of pride there, knowing I help someone out. Though Chicago for me sucked. One thing that became painfully obvious was that if I’m teaching other guys how to pick-up, I can’t do any pick-ups myself. It was terrible, and its for that reason why I will probably never teach at an actual in-field workshop again. It was a good experience, I’m glad I did it, but its too much work not to get paid for.
I know Harmless has talked about bringing me in as a guest speaker/instructor when he starts his workshops, but I’m on the fence about doing it right now. We’ll have to wait and see I suppose. It depends on how my finances are doing at the time.
Thundercat
The Extra-FUCKING-Mask!
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Quotes & Humor
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03
**Image Removed
Okay, I’ve gotten to meet a few characters as I travel around the world and meet up with various pick-up artists. But none quite fall into the same category of the infamous “2-6.” Yes, there is a PUA who’s handle is none other than 2-6 (pronounced twenty-six) because the dude was a virgin until the age of 26. Regardless of that little fact, 2-6 is one of the nicest, coolest guys I’ve met in the community. Not only that, he is funny as hell. So funny, in fact, that he is pursuing a career in stand-up comedy.
His website is extramask.com. It’s like Tom Green meets Charlie Manson with a healthy dose of the psychosis that sets in with semen backlog. Its manic, twisted, disturbing, and hilarious — much like most of my sarges. His most recent song about gay sex had me on the floor, I was laughing so hard.
It is a personal goal of mine to spread the word far and wide about the comic stylings of Extramask. Its not for everyone, but that’s what makes it great. Be sure to check it out and give 2-6 a reason to update his website.
WARNING: Not for people with heart problems or small children.
www.extramask.com
Go there. Don’t be a fucking pussy.
Thundercat
Little Big Dick Officially Loses His Mind!
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under News
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03
**Image Removed
Well, now that they’ve found Saddam and the violence is almost over, that bow-legged coward Little Big Dick has decided to go work as a SECURITY FORCE in IRAQ!!!! WTF? I thought the guy actually had brains, but this just goes to show how fucking psycho this pussy is. Not content to get his ass kicked by drunken AMOGs in the frozen tundra of Alaska, he’s actually decided to go somewhere where the official cockblock tactic is to KILL YOU.
Well, at least we expect him to come back with a tan, various forms of the clap, and at least fifty camels.
On a serious note, I know that LBD is psyched about this assignment, and I am very happy for him. I hope he stays safe out in Iraq and has a blast out there in the cradle of civilization. At the very least, he’ll be able to write a book on either how to lay middle eastern women or how to become an oil barron. (I expect royalties). I salute all the brave men and women out there who put their lives on the line for a safe and free Iraq. Congrats, LBD, you are not a pussy like me!
But then again, that’s why they call me…
Thundercat
YES VIRGINIA, YOU ARE A SKANKY HO HO HO!
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under News
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03
Okay, so its December, Christmas time is here, and I’m broke. Gawd, living in LA can be expensive! But my good buddy Swinggcat said he’d help me out by giving me a percentage of any sales of his ebook I can or have generated for him. Only thing is, he doesn’t have an affiliate program up yet. So if you decide to buy his book because of something you read of mine, send him an email and let him know. If you have already bought his book, and it was because of a recommendation I gave, email him and let him know. You can hit him up at:
swinggcat@realworldseduction.com
His book can be found at: www.realworldseduction.com
Help make poor ol’ Thundy’s holiday a happy one by getting him money! I assure you there will be a special place in heaven reserved for you.
Ho Ho Ho!
Thundercat
The Top 10 Pick-Up Artists Of 2003
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Analysis, Top 10 Lists
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03
Okay, so the debate has been raging for a while now over who is the best PUA (Pick-Up Artist) out there. Obviously, a lot of egos are involved in this statement, and everyone has their own opinions about who the best really is. In fact, its so subjective, that I don’t really think there will ever be a clear and honest answer on the subject. Its like asking who the best warrior or soldier is in a war. But the fact of the matter remains, no one can ever ALWAYS be the best. They’re always going to have their off days — be a little bit slow, a little bit late, a little bit unprepared or caught off guard. But that doesn’t stop some people from categorizing the people in our little community as “The Best.” So I’ve decided to throw my hat in the ring and rate the top 10 PUAs operating out there.
However, only the people I have met personally are eligible for my list. There could very well be many great PUAs out there that beat these guys out, but I have not met them and cannot verify their skills personally, so they are off my list for now, though I will mention a few afterwards who I think are worthy of it. Also, my rankings are not based on sheer skill alone, rather, they are based on consistency, and what I have seen as far as how often they are practicing what they preach. So keep that in mind as we go through this.
Thundercat’s Top 10 Pick-Up Artist
1. Style: Style is definitely, hands down, bar none, the best operating in the game today. This guy is probably the most evil, sneaky, manipulative bastard I have ever seen in operation. The thing is, this guy comes in totally under the radar, and that is why he is so dangerous. His subtlety is so amazing, that before you know it, you are qualifying yourself to him and he has you right where he wants you. And the thing is, he does it with both girls AND guys. No one is safe. To give you an idea of how incredible Style is, he’s practically invented most of the techniques a lot of the top guys, like Mystery and Tyler Durden, are using and teaching. He is practically Machiavellian in nature, and is someone I both admire and fear. I should also point out that I have a special, non-gay, place in my heart for this man, because it was with his help that I broke down my barrier with approaching women, so I owe a lot of my current game and success to Style, which is another reason why I rate him #1.
2. Swinggcat: Swinggcat comes in at a close second, and would in fact probably be number one if it weren’t for the fact that that he is a better looking guy than Style. Swinggcat is a pretty hip looking (think a shorter version of Vince Vaughn in Swingers and you get a rough idea of what Swinggcat looks like), whereas Style is a skinny, bald, jewish guy. Swinggcat is just as evil, sneaky, and manipulative, but considering what Style has to overcome in the looks department, that puts his game above Swingg’s. That said, I have seen Swinggcat in action on numerous occasions and am amazed at a lot of his game. The way he is able to process and sum up the information girls give him and turn their frame around is truly a sight to see. Not only that, he is so intuative, he can make up cold readings on the fly and be almost 100% accurate, which is fuckin’ creepy. His book only scratches the surface of his vast knowledge, and I think we’ll be getting a lot of good (and evil) stuff from his upcoming newsletters.
3. Zan: Zan is not a name that is very well known in the community, but having met the guy and seen him in action, I am convinced he is one of the top dudes out there when it comes to picking up chicks. In fact, I’d have even placed him at number 1 if it wasn’t for the fact that this guy is a “natural” seducer, and therefore what he does cannot be taught to others. But in accordance with the sheer skill of his game, he lays all others flat on their back. The thing is, the guy looks like a male model. He’s 40 years old, but looks like he’s 20. He actually USED to be a model, in fact, back in France in the 80′s I think, and his girlfriend was Monica Bellucci of the Matrix fame (hey, don’t hate the player, hate the game =). Currently, the guy has between 6 and 9 hot ass girlfriends who ALL know about each other, and apparently he enjoys many 3-somes and fuck buddies to boot. Not only that, but Zan has one of the most amazing philosophies on life I have ever heard. He spends his time moving towards beauty and away from things that are not beautiful. I hung out with the guy for only 3 days, but I am secure enough in my masculinity to say that if I was a chick, I’d have been all over him. Probably the coolest guy in the community. He was on stage at the Chicago DYD seminar, and if David DeAngelo ever decides to sell the audio to that thing, you’ll get a real treat hearing Zan speak about inner game. Simply amazing.
4. Maddash: Maddash, like Zan, is also a successful, good looking, older guy. He’s a big proponant of the “No Game” game, which is pretty much emulating the behaviors of “naturals,” such as Zan, and because of that, Maddash’s game comes off as very subtle and natural. When I saw him in action I was very impressed. It seems like he gets a new girl every night. The thing about Maddash is that his life is not ruled by PUA, he is very much into business and athletics as well. Pick-up is just a small factor of his life, but one he strives to perfect — and boy, does he do a good job at it.
5. Craig: Craig probably deserves to be higher on the list, but unfortuneately, I think the four people above him beat him as far as technique goes. That said, Craig is VERY good. He is the king of the short-set method. This is basically where you approach a set of women, say something funny/amusing, then move onto the next set and repeat. Its a very good way of being social and works great in bar scenes. Its also good for creating social proof. Craig is also a very funny guy, and his dancing skills help attract attention from others (in a good way, mind you). The quality of women Craig gets is quite high. I have yet to see him with a girl I would rank lower than a 9 on the looks scale. Not only that, but he seems to get them pretty consistantly. However, the fact that he comes off as a good looking frat guy, the fact that he has appeared on Elimidate, and the fact that he lives on a beach, are all contributing factors to his success — but that does not take away from the fact that he is very skilled. He is also one of the few PUAs I’ve seen that can do all his shit effectively while drunk. He was also on stage at the Chicago DYD seminar, so you may hear stuff from him fairly soon.
6. Mystery: Okay, I know Mystery is gonna be pissed that I rank him so low (or not. He probably doesn’t give a shit what I think. Can ya blame him?), but in my opinion, for as good as Mystery is, the other 5 guys are better. The thing about Mystery is that he’s incredibly good at raising his value in other’s eyes. I’ve seen him pull off some amazing instances of social proof with his magic tricks, and he is incredibly entertaining, funny, and exciting. Its easy to get caught up in Mystery’s spell. That said, the reason I rate him #6 is because I do not feel his long game is very good. I always get the sense that Mystery has a hard time genuinely connecting with people, and this effects his long term relationships. It seems like he can be very insecure at times and needs constant validation from others, which leads to a lot of mind games that get him his validation, but at the same time succeeds in pushing people away from him. Whether or not this is intentional, I don’t know, but it happens. He also seems to care more about adjusting his game to suit the girl than making the girl adjust to his game, which I think ends up hurting his pick-up in the long run because it is not really congruent with who he is and how he presents himself long term. In fact, if you hang out with Mystery long enough, you get the sense that everything he talks to you about is a pattern, and he always ends up bringing the conversation back to his favorite topic, which is, of course, himself. And that is the reason I put him at #6.
7. Tyler Durden: Tyler is one of the big “up and comers” in the community. His posts made him a legend on ASF, and then once he teamed up with Papa and started doing workshops, his stock only rose. For a while, there was speculation as to whether or not TD was all talk, but he proved to everybody that he was legit in the Vegas Mystery Method workshop where he not only got laid, but got Style and Mystery laid as well. I have seen Tyler at work in the field, and he is impressive. He is a genuinely funny and engaging guy with lots of interesting stuff to talk about. His posts are some of the most interesting to read in the community as well, and he backs up his teachings with lots of field experience. However, like Mystery, I get the sense that TD has problems in his long game. When he picks chicks up, he does so from the frame where he makes the girls feel like “bad girls” or “sluts.” This works good for party girls and good girls alike, but on day two when the frame wears off, the girls associate that feeling with him and then flake, because feeling bad and slutty might be exciting for a night, but long term it is not a good feeling. TD also comes off as very gay. This is not a bad thing per say, but he has adopted the “hot chick” frame so congruently, that I think when girls sleep with him, its almost incongruent with who they thought he was. I could, of course, be totally wrong in this assessment since I haven’t hung out and sarged with Tyler as much as I’d like, but I’m going off of what I have noticed.
8. Primoman: Primoman is a dude that is no longer an active member of the community, but he is still a pick-up artist in every sense of the word. Primoman is known as the “King of the Ugs.” He is a dude who I’ve yet to see without a girl on his arm. Allbeit, that girl is usually ugly, or fat, or a combination of the two, but nonetheless, it is a girl. Primoman is not so much about quality as he is about QUANTITY. He probably lays more girls than any other guy in the community, but he is also not too picky with his prospects. Regardless, he gets laid a LOT! And that’s what it all comes down to in the end. His game is very Juggler in nature. In fact, he is quite AFC in his approach, but he is just so congruent with who he is and gently persistent in his sarge, that he eventually wins the girl over. Lately he’s been working his way up the “looks” scale as far as his girls go, so he may be giving Style a run for his money some day.
9. Sickboy: Sickboy is a protogee of Tyler and Papa. He’s a New Yorker and is best known for his appearance in the movie Zoolander as one of the male models in the movie. Yes, that’s right, the guy looks like a male model. But despite this, he is incredibly down to earth and has absolutely no ego about himself. He’s a very easy guy to talk to and a good friend. His game is also quite solid, though I do think it’s helped greatly by his looks. I think his frames aren’t as strong as they could be, but he definitely has the subtleties of PUA down pat. He recently spoke to the NYC lair and that’s a great read if you can find the transcripts somewhere. He’s a guy to look out for.
10. Harmless: Harmless is not what you would expect from a PUA. He’s pretty prolific on ASF, and seems to know his shit. The thing is, the guy comes off very much as his name describes him — Harmless. He’s a pretty average looking guy who seems very unassuming at first. But then you see the guy in action, and he’s very good. I think he comes across much like Mystery and TD, where he raises his value in the girl’s eyes by being entertaining and engaging. I know I enjoy talking to the guy, if that’s any indication. I haven’t seen enough of his game in action to critique it any further, but I do know he’s going to start teaching workshops soon, so his game’s gotta be pretty high. Regardless, he’s one to keep an eye on.
HONORABLE MENTIONS
There are a number of other people out there who probably deserve to be on this list, but like I said before, I have not had a chance to really see them in action. But here are a few who I think deserve a mention.
Bad Boy — Apparently this guy is amazing. I know TD gets a lot of his AMOG tactics from Bad Boy. He’s a croatian pick-up artist who was injured in the Bosnian war, which makes his game so much more incredible considering he was almost killed and still suffers the effects from that somewhat. Apparently the guy is very fearless and straight-forward agressive with women. In fact, some would descibe his game as all cocky and no funny, which is probably why its so effective. Not only that, but he is supposed to be incredibly congruent. I know he’s currently fucking Miss Croatia and using her as a pawn to pull other women for threesomes if that tells you anything about his game.
Toecutter – I don’t know the guy personally and all I have to go off of are his posts on ASF and Mystery’s Lounge, but this guy seems to have it going on. I know TD studdied his archive like the dead sea scrolls, and his posts convey a very congruent attitude. I’m interested in seeing him in action, and if I’m ever in Canada I’ll see if I can’t hook up with him.
MTLPUA — Don’t know much about him, but I hear he’s really good.
David X — I know Clifford had good things to say about him.
Chet – The Chetinator! I got to see him speak in Chicago. Supposedly he’s god-like with women, but I have yet to see him in action and can’t say for sure.
Adam – The “natural.” Look to see great things from this guy in the future!
Masterclass — The guy is currently juggling 4 girls right now. He’s also an incredibly sneaky speed seducer who is moving more into the cocky/funny stuff and having great success. Right now, I think his game could be up there with the best there is if he got past his fear of approaching.
Rick H. — The legend. I have not hung out with the guy yet, but I’m sure when I do, it’ll be veeeeeeery interesting. =)
Ross Jeffries — I’ve hung out with Ross on a few occasions now and have only sarged with him once. From what I saw, I liked, but have not done enough field work with him to accurately rate the guy. I know Papa speaks highly of him, and he’s been out in the field with him more than I have.
Papa – I go out with Papa all the time, so I’m a bit biased when it comes to his skill level. He teaches at all of TD and Mystery’s workshops as well, and his field reports are always worth a read. He’s also single-handedly bringing this community together, so he has to be respected for that at the very least. The reason I didn’t put him in the top 10 was because much of his material is from Style and Tyler. I think in order to be in the top 10, a PUA needs to be developing his own style. One thing I will say about Papa is that he is incredibly good with creating strong frames.
Alphamale – This guy is incredibly impressive. Most of his game is based on using pivots to pull girls for him. I haven’t hung out with the guy enough to get an idea of how good he is, but from what I have seen, his game is awesome.
Well, there ya go, my Top 10. Hopefully one day I’ll make my list, but I doubt it! I’m much too hard on myself, lol.
That’s why they call me…
Thundercat
Swingcat’s Open Loop Theory
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Analysis, Articles
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03
**Image removed
YEEEEEEAH! Damn, I’m buzzed. Just heard one of my favorite shows — Carnivale — got renewed by HBO for a second season. I swear, if I only had HBO on my TV and no other channel, I’d be happy. Their original programming is the best on TV! Carnivale, coupled with The Wire and the Sopranos are a few of the shows I set everything aside for to watch. I am really jazzed! You can find the announcement at the Hollywood Reporter by following this link:
Now, someone had to go on the SS list and start blasting my favorite fall season show by saying its too frustrating to watch. In fact, he said that it was an example of going too far with “open loops.” Now, what they’re doing discussing Swinggcat terminology on the SS board is beyond me, especially considering that Ross is a stickler for not talking about other people’s products (but since Swinggcat used to be his top student, I guess he’s making exceptions). Anyway, this discussion brought up an interesting point about open loops.
For those of you who don’t know what an Open Loop is, its a verbal form of creating insecurity, anticipation, and a need to qualify through the use of creating an open ended story. Yes, that’s a round-a-bout explanation, but its the best I can do from memory. Swinggcat has a whole chapter in his book about open loops that explains it better than I ever could. But an example of an open loop would be something like:
PUA: “You know, this place reminds me of when I was in a german sex show with my girlfriend.”
HB: “You were in a german sex show? What happened?”
PUA: “Well I was in Germany because I love McDonalds ice cream, and I made it a personal goal to try McDonalds ice cream in every country in the world. Don’t you just love ice cream?”
So what’s happening there? You set up the fact that you were doing something exotic and forbidden, but you fail to pay it off and start talking about something silly and stupid. But the whole time you’re doing that, the other person will be thinking “Yes, but what about the sex show!!!???” and if they ask you, you start talking about something else, never quite giving them what they want. That’s an open loop. Its an interesting hook that someone wants closure on, and you’re the only one who can give it to them, but you don’t. You make them work for it. Its a very sneaky, subtle, eeeeevil way to get people to qualify themselves to you. They’ll be saying shit like “Please tell me! Pleeeeeaaaaase!” And you can grin and say “I’m not sure you’ve earned it yet.” Hopefully you’re smart enough to know what that implies.
So anyway, on the SS list, there was a lot of talk about how open loops are ineffective because they are so frustrating. What many fail to understand is that open loops are MEANT to be frustrating, and that is why they feel that way. Open loops create insecurity and anticipation, two very important factors in attraction. If you get pissed off when someone uses open loops on you, it means its working.
But there is an argument that people who intuitively use open loops end up creating an atmosphere around them that ultimately drives people away instead of attracting them, and therefor open loops should not be used. I think the important word here is “intuitive.” People who do this stuff intuitively are destined to mess it up because they do not have a conscious awareness of how this shit works.
Open loops are a way of creating drama. They are meant to rope other people into your reality by giving them just enough to get interested, and then taking it away so they actively pursue you.
When you have a conscious awareness of how open loops work, you can use them to attract people to you. When you do not, you can over use them and cause people to become frustrated and angry because they realize the hopelessness in their pursuit. Women tend to overuse this tactic because they are emotional creatures and easily distracted by stimuli (this is a bit of an over-generalization here, but I’ve found it is fairly accurate for attractive women). It also goes towards creating drama and turmoil in their personal lives, something many women crave and create.
I think the use of open loops is a valuable tool in seduction. I’ve seen some extremely talented Pick-Up Artists us it to great effect. But I tend to agree that if overused, any of these skills become ineffective and even detrimental to your pick-up. That’s part of the trick to being good at this, is knowing WHEN and HOW to use these tactics.
For more information on open loops, you can either try and catch reruns of Carnivale, or buy Swinggcat’s book at Real World Seduction.
Ho!
Thundercat
The Social Circle of Life
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Articles, Tips & Tricks
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03
Okay all you AFCs,
Here is a copy of my most recent article from Cliff’s List on Social Circles. Aside from the gay title, I think its pretty good. I’m still looking for my article on walk-ups. When I find that, I’ll post it.
Ho!
Thundercat
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The Social Circle Of Life
How to Create the Best Possible Environment for Getting Laid
An Essay by Tundercat
I’ll be the first to admit it. I’m a nerd. I like to watch TV, go to movies, read books, play on my computer, and even partake in the occasional MMORPG. But when I’m not waxing philosophical about who could kick who’s ass — Kirk or Han Solo — I’m out trying to pick up chicks.
The thing is, what I do is cold approaches. Cold Approaches are basically approaches where you approach a woman you do not know in the hopes of attracting her so you can lay her. Without a doubt, this is probably the hardest form of Pick-Up there is. Why? Well, for one thing, the Fear Factor on cold approaches is the highest. They don’t know you, you don’t know them, and the risk of getting rejected is high. This is one of the reasons many people cannot do cold approaches. It is just much too scary.
But the reason I do them is because I currently have no better option available to me. If I don’t cold approach a girl, I won’t meet any. But a funny thing happens if you cold approach enough girls. You become friends with them!
As strange as it sounds, it is true. Though the average Pick-Up Artist (PUA) is not looking to make friends with the girls he approaches, odds are if they like you enough to fuck you, you will become friends. And even if they don’t want to fuck you, the least they are willing to become is a friend because they enjoy your company enough.
This is a funny little side effect to approaching, and because of it, my eyes were opened to something. It’s a dirty little secret, yet one that is so obvious I am surprised that I did not see it before. Are you ready? Okay, here it is:
Most people get laid from their social circles.
This is a fact, my friends. Sure, cold approaching can lead to the occasional one night stand (ONS), or even a same day lay that blossoms into a relationship. But very rarely does this happen. In fact, it happens so rarely, that I really rate my approach success based on the quality of numbers I get. I say quality because anyone can get a number, but a number from a girl who actually gives you her REAL number and will actually RETURN your phone call is so much more important than the quantity of numbers one receives.
But of all the guys I hang around with who get laid, the ones who do so with the most frequency are those with large social circles that include women in them. For instance, I have a friend who is going to college. He belongs to a number of groups: Martial Arts, Role Playing, Historical Reenactment, etc. And he gets laid. He gets laid a LOT. Probably more than most PUAs, and DEFINITELY more than me. The funny thing is, this guy DOES NOT APPROACH! In fact, he’s just as scared at approaching women as 90% of the guys reading mASF (moderate Alt Seduction Fast) are.
When I noticed this, I took a good look at the guys I know who are getting laid frequently, and sure enough, there was the proof. They were all getting laid from either girls they already knew, or met through friends, family, or some type of hobby.
This is an incredible revelation for me because social circles have always been the primary dipping source for men I knew were getting laid. Back in my AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) days, I’d only hang out with my guy friends, who weren’t getting laid either. I’d do solitary activities, play on the computer, and take part in social activities that were typically heavily attended by males. In short, my social circle did not include women, and because of that, I did not get laid.
As my awareness of women grows, along with my seduction skills, I am beginning to realize that being a PUA is not just about getting laid, but cultivating a social circle conducive to interacting with women ON A DAILY BASIS.
Most of the men I have met who are not getting laid or who are struggling to get laid are the ones whose social circles are almost completely empty of women, and the women who do encompass their social circles do not interact with them regularly.
A scary truth about guys not getting laid is that they are not comfortable talking to women. Sometimes, I STILL do not feel comfortable talking to women. And this can show in your sarging (interacting with women with the intent of laying them). I am willing to bet that most guys who cannot talk to or approach women do not have many female friends in their social circles. And if they do, the girls are friends they would like to fuck. They do not know what it is like to truly be friends with a girl they do not want to sex up, and because of that, there is always a feeling of comfortableness just below the surface of their interaction with girls, which the girls can pick up on and which completely throws off the guy’s state.
So the trick is to expand your social circle so it becomes something that is conducive to getting you laid.
The fact is, a female friend is the most powerful tool you have in your seduction arsenal, especially if she is attractive. Approaching other women with another woman who can social proof you and talk you up is probably the single most invaluable trick there is to approaching. When you have a female with you who is actively working to HELP you get laid, chances are it will happen, and more quickly than if you were acting on your own. Not only that, but the girl will also have friends that she will try to hook you up with if you demonstrate youв’re cool enough to be her friend. Through these girls, you will find your comfort around women increase, along with you success rate.
So how do you do this? Well, the first step is to befriend a girl. How is this done? Well, most AFCs (Average Frustrated Chumps) have had a lot of experience with the “Let’s Just Be Friends” area of life. But this is not the same thing. The fact is, with the “Let’s Just Be Friends” stigma, you are not really the girl’s friend because you still want to fuck her and she knows it.
The best way I know how to expand your social circle is to befriend other GUYS who are good with women. Not the type of guys who use women and throw them away, but the type of guys who are fun and always surrounded by girls. You befriend this guy, and he will introduce you to the girls who surround them. You can meet these guys anywhere, and it’s much easier to approach and make friends with men because there is no sexual tension there. You guys can connect on basic male subjects such as sports, women, business, etc. If nothing else, you may make a new valuable male friend out of the deal.
You can meet these guys anywhere you go, be it a club, bar, museum, concert, etc. It doesn’t matter. You will meet them doing stuff you like to do. Most guys will go for the girls right away, but if you befriend the guy who is IN with the girls, he will help you to get them.
Once in with the guys, its time to move onto the girls. Have him introduce you. Tell the girls how good of a friend he is. Show them that you’re a cool guy. Become their friends. The cooler the guy you befriend, the hotter the women he knows. The hotter the women he knows, the better quality of women they will introduce you to.
The next step will take a bit of willpower on your part, but you want to actually BEFRIEND the girl with the knowledge that you are not going to sleep with her. No matter how hot she is, you must take her out of the “I wanna FUCK!” category. This is crucial because if you go after her for the full monty (fuck), you could screw up the friendship.
But once she’s your friend, you can practice on her. Talk to her, call her up and bullshit, go out with her, let her feel safe and comfortable around you. Once she’s your buddy, get her to introduce you to her friends. Those are the ones you game on. This is because you’ll be at an advantage with them. Not only will you have a girl who is their friend hyping you up, but you’ll also be social proofed by the guy you befriended, who has also probably met the girl you’re being introduced to. Right there is instant social proof that you’re cool enough to hang with them. Then its time to game the girl, which should be easier than cold approaching because the meeting is inherent.
But when it comes to cold approaching, the women you befriend become even more powerful. This is where the real fun can happen. You can use your female friends to approach other groups of people. You can introduce her to the men while she does the same for you with the women. Not only that, its natural social proof when you’re with a girl, and you feel more comfortable talking to women, which makes you more attractive.
In fact, this is so powerful that I know PUAs who’s entire game is based on Social Circles. A woman you use to help you get laid is often referred to as a “Pivot” or a “Pawn.” They are used as pieces on a chessboard to break down defenses and open doorways to score checkmate. One guy I know is SO effective with the girls in his social circle, that if there is a guy trying to get with a female friend of his, he will actually get the guy to pull him other chicks before he social proofs the guy with his friend. This is another great tactic, especially if you’re lazy about approaching. In this situation, not only are his pivots pulling other girls for him, but the guys after his pivots are as well. And in the end, all you’re getting is a bigger social circle which will make it easier to get laid.
It is very easy to befriend women, because when you make it clear you do not want to have sex with them, they can feel safe with you and allow you to “mess up” around them in practicing your PUA skills. Not only that, but being around women will teach you SO MUCH about pick-up, your game will rapidly increase.
In his book Real World Seduction, Swinggcat says “If you want to get good at picking-up women, surround yourself by five beautiful women who are good at getting guys.” This is important, because all the best PUAs just act like really hot chicks. They steal the chick frame that gets guys all into them and turn it around on the girls. The more you hang out with women, the more you will begin to incorporate this mindset into your seduction repertoire.
So friends, I recommend you go out there and start getting to know more girls in a non-sexual way. They will help you a great deal in adding some notches to your belt. I hope to expand my social circle massively in the coming future, so that I may also reap the benefits of having many lady friends.
Thundercat
Some Old Stuff…
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under News
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03
Okay, so I’ve been around a while and have a backlog of shit I can post here for your viewing pleasure. Some of it is old, but whatever, if it helps someone, it will be my pleasure to put it up. I sometimes write articles for Cliff’s List, which is the best newsletter there is on seduction. If you aren’t a subscriber, you’re missing out. You can sign up for it by sending an email here: cliff@be-relentless.com. Anyway, I’ll post any articles I write for Cliff here, along with any interesting advice I give to people in any of the mailing lists I’m on. Oh, a few field reports will be thrown in for good measure as well. =)
I’ll try and update this blog as often as I can. If any of you wanna help out by replying to my articles or anything, feel free. If you want to even send me field reports or articles, and I think they’re worth two pesos, I’ll even post them. Check back for more cool shit from the wide-world of “PUA!”
Ho!
Thundercat
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