The Top 10 Pick Up Artists Of 2008

January 9, 2009 by  
Filed under Top 10 Lists

Welcome one and all to the Top 10 list of best Pick Up Artists for the year 2008!

2008 was a strange year – for me personally, and for a lot of others, I think.  In many ways, I’m glad the year is over.  But regardless of how good of a year it was, there were many people in the seduction community who continued to rise above petty squabbles and drama and actually help other men improve their lives and their success with women, and this list is a CELEBRATION of those men, who have helped others throughout the past year.

For those of you new to the list, let me explain how the rankings work.  It becomes very easy to get “caught up” in the hype of certain personalities, so I try and rank the Top 10 based on a number of criteria, which I believe must be present to be considered a good “PUA.”  So all of this years winners were ranked based on:

1.  In-Field Performance.  This is basically the skills the PUA displays in the field with women.  Most Top 10s deal with this factor exclusively, but I’ve found that just looking at a guy’s in-field performance can be misleading, since people have off-nights or can get lucky.  That said, their ability to use the techniques in field repeatedly and consistently to get results is a big, big factor in the ranking process.

2.  Innovations.  This is what new outlook or techniques the PUA brings to the table.  It’s easy for any new guy to get good using Mystery Method or any other school of seduction, but then again, that stuff is designed to work!  So being innovative and bringing a new twist, spin, philosophy, technique, or whatever to the mix is also a big deal, because that means the PUA actually has something to contribute to his students and the community as a whole that no one else does.

3.  Teaching Ability.  This is how effectively the PUA can teach what he does to other people, and have them get similar results.  This is another important factor, because it weeds out the people who are just the lucky naturals, and finds the PUAs who have something to offer humanity as a whole.  After all, I don’t care if a guy gets laid a lot.  I care if that guy can get ME laid a lot – and I think the same is true for you.  That is why I factor in the PUA’s ability to teach others into the ranking.

4.  Contributions To The Community.  This is a measure of how much the PUA “gives back” to others in the seduction community.  This factor is all about the PUA’s willingness to help others, the knowledge and experience he’s willing to share, and the compassion he shows to those who need help.  Too many PUAs look down on people not as successful with women as they are, and that’s not what the seduction community is about, so giving back to it should play a factor, in my opinion.

5.  Philosophy.  This comes down to the PUA’s outlook on life, women, and other men in general.  It’s about how they live their lives, and whether they’re consistent with it.  Some PUAs spout great philosophy, but don’t really believe in it or practice it.  But it’s that core foundations which will influence their students, so I believe this is important in factoring the rankings.

6.  Likability.  One of the things I base my ranking on is whether I actually like the PUA or not.  This is a subjective thing, but I feel its important, because there’s usually a reason I don’t like someone, and that reason has to do with them being a fake, fraud, evil bastard, or what have you.  I like to think I have a fairly decent “B.S. Radar,” so when I meet a PUA in person, I can usually tell if they are legit or not after getting to know them, which is why I tend to rank PUAs I have actually met in real life.  If I haven’t met them, I need to get good feedback from at least 3 sources I trust to make the decision to rank them in this category.

Okay, so now that you know how I rank the list, let’s get to it! Read more

My Secret Identity — The Dichotomy of a PUA

February 4, 2004 by  
Filed under Rants & Reviews

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/24/03

Growing up, I used to collect comic books.  I was pretty hard core about it too.  I started when I lived in Germany and it was the only American thing my family had available for kids, and its a trend I continued until high school.  I eventually stopped because I was spending upwards of $200 a week on comic books.  Seriously, I was addicted.  All the money I had went to owning that shit.  My parents had to orchestrate an intervention to break me of this habit.  I probably have a good $3,000 worth of comics packed away in our basement somewhere.

The funny thing is, the heroes in those comics always had a secret identity.  You could break it down to who they really were, and their super-hero persona.  In fact, many stories often dealt with how these heroes would cope with their secret identities and who, in fact, they really were.  I find it a very similar parallel to where I currently am in my life and my development as a Pick-Up Artist.

There are situations I’ve been in since I’ve been home where I’ve found myself wanting to sarge a girl, but in a way I feel like I either can’t or shouldn’t do it because I’m with my family.  The problem with family is that much of the time, they will not understand why you are doing what you are doing.  At least for me, who comes from a fairly conservative, catholic family, my parents would at the very least be puzzled and at the very worst, shocked, at what I was up to most of the time.  Not only that, but my younger brothers (who’ve never had the problems getting women that I’ve had to face) would be very judgmental about it.  In a way, if I revealed to them this aspect of my life, I’d be putting myself at a disadvantage because I’d be opening myself up to judgment by my family.

Obviously, what they think of me doesn’t really matter.  However, it would affect the interactions I’d have with them in the future, especially if they think I’m not very good at this whole “pick-up” thing.  The best time to reveal this aspect of my life would obviously be with a beautiful fiancee on my arm, but I don’t expect that to happen for a very loooooong time, if ever.

So up to that point, I’m stuck living a double life when it comes to my family and AFC friends.  This community is a saving grace in a way, because I now have a network of guys who I can not only talk about this stuff with, but also who understand where I am coming from.  Its a valuable asset, and one I’m quite grateful for.

I know a lot of guys like Papa and Swinggcat are very open with their families about what they do, but I just don’t feel comfortable telling my mom that I’ve devoted a great deal of my life to learning how to get laid by any girl I want, including 3-somes and strippers and any other variety of girl.  She’d have a fit.  This is the same woman who forbade me to date until I was 16.  Can you imagine letting it slip that I’ve frolicked through Vegas with a group of strippers trying to score some drugs so we could party down in my hotel room?  Yikes.

I’m interested in how people handle this.  I know that if you’re congruent with it, it doesn’t matter, but there’s still that nagging reservation about revealing my secret identity to others.  Its a rather sticky wicket, if you ask me.

Until that time, I guess I’ll just stay locked in the nearest phone booth.


Deconstructing Swinggcat, Vol. 1

February 4, 2004 by  
Filed under Analysis

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/20/03

Okay, its no big secret me and Swinggcat know each other. In fact, we’re pretty good friends. So good, that he has granted me permission to repost his newsletter on my blog. Of course, I never thought I’d see the day when he got off his lazy ass to actually WRITE the newsletter, but just as another sign of the coming apocalypse, it has finally arrived.

From time to time, I’ll post some of his newsletters on here that I think are worthy of further discussion and pick them apart for you with my experiences and ideas interspersed for your reading pleasure. I think Swingg is one of the best in the game and there is a lot to learn from him, and if he’s going to be doing newsletters regularly, they are worth signing up for — so be sure to log in on his webpage to subscribe! Also, if you buy his book because of me for some reason, let him know so he can pay me a commission. It’s not free to run a site like this, you know.

Anyway, without further ado, here is the first Swinggcat newsletter ever — “Building Attraction Through Tension Loops.”

Building Attraction Through Tension Loops
To subscribe to my free e-letter, visit me at

To unsubscribe yourself from my free e-letter go
to the link at the end of this email.

One of my maxims for ATRACTING women is to make them
ABC…to make them ALWAYS BE CHASING me.

In my book I call this PRIZING.

PRIZING women is important because when you do
things to make women chase you they will begin to
see you as a PRIZE they want to win over.

Prizing is a very important concept to understand in PU. I like to refer to it as “taking the power position” because you are putting yourself above others. One good way I like to do this is to ABJ — Always Be Judging — others. I got this nifty little trick from RoadKing, who uses it to great effect on strippers. Though Swinggcat has more systems for prizing laid out in his book.

One technique for PRIZING I talk about in my book
is Open Loop.

An Open Loop is an unfinished thought or story. So,
within the context of ATTRACTING women, some
examples of open loops are:

When a man tells a woman a really juicy story and
just at the point that she really starts to get into
the story, he intentionally withholds the conclusion
from her.


When a man acts as if he knows something about a
woman but when she asks him what it is he refuses to
tell her.

Are you guys starting to get why open loops are so

Open loops are the shit. Lots of guys HATE open loops because they tend to frustrate them. But what they don’t realize is that open loops are MEANT to frustrate. That’s why they are effective. Though Swingg likes to describe open loops in terms of what the guy can do to the girl, I like to describe them in terms of what the girl can do to the guy, because girls do this shit better than any guy ever could. For instance, when a girl tells you “Maybe we can get together sometime,” that’s an example of an open loop. You’re gonna be calling her to get together, but she could do any number of things to keep you dangling, and in the meantime, you just try harder and harder to get together with her, until you’ve fully committed yourself to getting this chick, to the point where you think you’ve fallen for her.

Though what Swingg is describing here gets even more evil than that, as you’ll see below…

They are powerful because they leave women wanting and
reaching for more.

And when women are wanting and reaching for more, they
are CHASING us.

Its true. It works both ways.

I have noticed a few of the guys who have recently
purchased my book have spawned quite a few online
discussions on open loops.

Yes, that would be the SS list. I think its funny how some guys on that list bought Swingg’s book, and started posting field reports using his material and terminology like they just discovered it miracuously on their own in their vain attempts to reach guru-hood. Lame. I will say, however, that some of the best threads on the SS list in the past 4 YEARS sprung from discussingf Swinggcat material, so I can’t be too angry about it, I suppose.

This is great because it tells me that guys are really
getting out there and using the ideas in my book.

Recently I have been thinking a lot about the
psychological mechanism behind open loops: What is it
about ‘open loops’ that cause women to want and reach
for more?

This is where the evil part comes in. Are you ready for it?

And about a month ago it dawned on me while watching
TV. I was watching a television show that I did not
find terribly interesting, and out of nowhere the power
went out. The weird thing was that inside I felt this
emotional “want” to find out the conclusion to a TV show
I did not even find interesting. However, the more I thought
about this the more I realized that I did not really want
to find out what happened, but wanted closure and

Even though the show was not very good, it had created
some unresolved emotional tension in me. The power going
out made me aware of my need to release, resolve, and
bring closure to this tension.

So, what I have discovered is that the psychological
mechanism behind open loops is in creating unresolved
emotional tension.


What I have realized is that besides using open loops,
there are literally hundreds of ways of creating, and
increasing unresolved emotional tension.

Doing this is what I call a “Tension Loop”. The structure
of a Tension Loop is to first do something that creates
unresolved emotional tension.

For example, you could do this by using an open loop: an
unfinished story or thought.

Or you could do this by creating a barrier between you and
a woman. If you have chemistry with a woman you might want
to hint that there is already a woman in your life,
planting the seed in her mind that even though you and her
like each other, it probably will not work out between the
both of you because you are already taken.

Or you could feign being really offended by something a
woman does or says. If she asks you, “What do you do for a
living?” you could hasten back with, “I am not the guy who
used to work with you at Mc. Donald’s, and if we ever hang
out, there is to be no talk about your career path at
McDonalds…I wouldn’t want you to embarrass me in front of
my friends.”

I’ve seen Swinggcat do this. Its fucking hilarious. The poor girl looks like a deer in headlights.

Or you could do something to invalidate a woman, such as,
acting unimpressed with her or even hinting at not liking her.

Now once you have created this tension loop inside a woman,
you can keep going with it: you can build it larger and more

This is where it gets REALLY evil. We’re talking Darth Vader evil here.

For example, if you create a tension loop by acting offended
by something a woman says or does, you can make that tension
loop larger and more intense by continuing to act offended.

But at a certain point, you need to close the tension
loop–bring some resolution, release, or closure to it.

I have found that people who are effective at using tension
loops–for example, auspicious writers and marketers–all
follow a similar structure:

1) They do or say something to create the tension loop

2) They keep going with what they said or did, making
the “tension loop” larger

3) They do something to close the tension loop; bring
some release or resolution to it

4) They open it back up, but just a little bit.

Also, have you ever noticed that this is the structure of many
great movies? Think about it: many great movies start off with
a tension loop by introducing some kind of conflict or drama.
Then, the tension loop increases up until the point of the
climax. Then the tension loop is closed by bringing some
resolution to the conflict or drama. And, finally, the movie
ends by either the tension loop being opened back up or a new
tension loop opening up.This makes the movie watcher want to
see the sequel.

Lets now look at an example of sparking a tension loop,
building it, closing it, and then opening up a new tension
loop–but just a little bit.

A few days ago, after exchanging some light banter with a
woman, I said to her, “You know…I don’t like you…”

She gave me a flabbergasted look and panted, “what!” (Being
the attractive woman that she is, she had probably never
had anyone say this to her before).

I had sparked a tension loop in her.

Next I made the tension loop bigger by saying, ” I’m sorry,
that probably came off wrong. Let me be more specific: I
really don’t like you.”

Here I was making the tension loop larger: intensifying all of
that unresolved emotional tension inside her. Now although
this is very powerful, you do not want to create so much
tension that she snaps–you do not want to PUSH her away
completely. So the idea is to take her to the edge–or close to
it. It is similar to kids blowing bubbles. They want to blow
as much air into the bubble to ensure that it is as big as
possible, but if they blow too much air into the bubble it
will pop. This takes practice, and you really have to learn to
observe how much emotional tension she is experiencing at any
given moment.

Then I said to her, “And the reason I don’t like you is that
you remind me of this girl Miranda whom I hated in the
second grade. I hated her because she used to always beat me
at hot hands (BTW, “hot hands” is a game that children play).

Then I challenged her to a game of hot hands, defeated her
quickly, and gloated, “Yes…I am the winner, and, actually, I
like you now…since you really stink at hot hands”.

So here I closed the tension loop by bringing resolution and
release to her emotional tension. And then I opened a new
loop–just a little bit–by telling her that she stinks at hot

lol. I remember when Swingg did this. He called me and woke me up to tell me what had happened when he was first testing this shit out. He was so jazzed at the responses he was getting. I gotta tell you, there’s nothing better than hearing a master seducer at the top of his game getting excited about testing new theories and tactics in the field. This is one of the reasons I think Swinggcat is so much better than a lot of the other guys out there. He’s actually improving, creating, and testing shit EXTENSIVELY before sharing it. I know for a fact that at the rate he’s going, Swinggcat method will not be the same thing in 6 months that it is right now.

There is a lot of psychology going on here. And in this
newsletter I am only scratching the surface of what I am doing.
I am going to do another newsletter soon, where I will go a lot
deeper into the psychological mechanisms of tension loops.

He’s run a few of his newsletters by me already, and I gotta tell you, they are NUCLEAR in the truest sense of the word. I’m almost finding them more helpful than his book, but I don’t think I’d be able to understand them without having read that first. But I know that everytime Swinggcat comes up with a new newsletter, he’s probably losing money on another book he could be writing.

But if you are really interested in mastering the techniques
for triggering these underlying psychological mechanisms in
women check out my eBook.

I am a guy who has been doing this stuff since I was a teenager.
And in the last four years I have gotten really serious about
mastering the psychological mechanisms that trigger attraction
in women. I am not some guy who used to be good with
women who now only talks and writes about how to attract women
from behind a computer screen. Instead, I am regularly out
interacting with women, which allows me to experiment, hone, and
further develop my attracting women skills. What I teach is not
just bunch of feel-good theory, but applicable stuff that can be
used in the real world. My material really is the Mu-Tai
kickboxing of dating guides. I really believe that this is the
most cutting edge stuff out there.

I have been getting tons of emails from guys telling me things
like, “Before getting your book I tried everything out there,
but had no success. But your stuff helped me finally get it. In
your easy-to-understand way of explaining things you have given
me a set of powerful tools along with a simple structure for
using them”.

There have even been a number of women, one of whom is a Los
Angeles stripper, who have been telling me things like, “Most
male dating experts are dead wrong when it comes to
understanding women. But, wow, even though I hate to admit
this, you have really hit the nail on the head when it comes
to knowing what works with women.”

This is a stripper RoadKing introduced me to that I’ve been gaming. I brought her along with me to Las Vegas and that’s where Swinggcat met her. Its funny, because he told her what he did and about his book, and since then she’s been calling him up and lurking on his website. This girl is funny, because she wants to write a book about how women can pick-up guys. Little does she know how fucking stupid that is. She was telling me how important it is for the girl to hang up the phone first because that gives them a psychological edge. I couldn’t help but laugh at her. Everything she’s “discovered” is shit that was discussed on ASF years ago and has moved on, which is probably why she’s so fascinated with Swinggcat’s book. I hope she doesn’t buy it, she might be able to deflect the game I’m running on her if she knows what I’m doing.

So, if you are ready to start the new year with a new take on
attracting women, come check out my EASY-TO-UNDERSTAND eBook
which is chock full of powerful insights, ideas, and tools,



P.S., Here is one last little secret of mine for the New Year:
If you feel like you are in a rut with women go out and get
some new threads. Better yet, try a whole new look: Go out and
get some clothes you normally would never wear. This is what I
do when I am in a rut and it works wonders. In fact, if you
have put on a few extra pounds this holiday season and are not
in the mood to cut down on your caloric intake, but still want
to look great, you are in luck. I have a friend, Joseph, who
just released a book called “Fashion For Fat Guys”. Not only is
Joseph an expert when it comes to fashion, but he also knows a
thing or two about attracting women. You can visit him here:

In case you didn’t notice, Fashion For Fat Guys is linked on this page as well. I think its a great resource for overweight men to dress better. I know I use the tactics outlined in that book when I go out, and it helps up my confidence levels so I’m more effective than I would be otherwise. Some might say its common sense stuff, but I think for a lot of guys it will help point out shit that they should be doing or don’t know they should do. I’ll probably discuss this more when I write my next article for Cliff’s List. I’m also thinking about talking about inner game soon, and I know that something like FFFG has a role to play in that as well.

P.P.S., If you have a success story you would like to share,
or a question you would like to ask, or a comment you would
like to make, please email me at

Don’t just hit reply to this email. Thanks!

Okay, well there you have it. Hopefully you read this newsletter 50 times, bought both ebooks reccommended in it, and learn this shit backwards and forwards. I’ll probably be experimenting with tension loops soon (I did a bit of that in my airport pick-up) so I’ll report here on how it goes.



My Dinner With TheOne

February 4, 2004 by  
Filed under News

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/18/03

Okay, so one of the perks of living in Los Angeles is that I get to hang out with some of the best of the best of the best that the seduction community has to offer. Los Angeles seems to be the Mecca for Pick-Up Artists, probably because of the constant influx of fresh-off-the-bus poon, mixed with the hippest night scene in the U.S. (shut up New York), and a healthy dose of celebrity elitism, and you got yourself a virtual PUA playground.

One of the PUAs out here is TheOne, who used to be called Maverick, but I guess he decided a name that started with “The” was more memorable. Anyway, some of you may recognize TheOne as a fairly regular instructor at the Real Social Dynamic’s workshop. (Perhaps he changed his name because of all the gay TOP GUN jokes hurled at him by being Tyler’s wing? Who knows.) Regardless, TheOne was one of the first instructors I ever had. It was him and Tyler who took my out my first night in the LA Mystery Method Workshop about 5 months ago (Has it been that long? Dunno. Gotta lay off the drugs).

As far as Game goes, TheOne is far from the best there is, but he’s a pretty solid dude who does get laid (though looking like Sylvester Stallone from “Cobra” doesn’t hurt, I’m sure). So I like the guy enough to agree to have dinner with him when he calls me up a few days ago.

TheOne picks me up from work, and this is the first time I get to see him in his non-peacocking gear, which usually consists of black PVC pants and a form fitting black shirt, along with the occasional leather arm band. Instead, he’s just in sweatpants and a muscle shirt, having just come from the gym (whether he was trying to impress me or not, who knows? =)

So we go to this Hawaiian BBQ place I know of and sit down for a nice dinner. It’s cool hanging out with TheOne because unlike hanging out with someone like Mystery, I do not feel a pressure to sarge. There’s nothing worse than trying to relax and enjoy a meal with the feeling that you should be gaming the waitresses and any female patron in sight, which is often an unfortunate side-effect of hanging with a juggernaught of PUA such as Mystery.

Anyway, we talk about a lot of things. Community gossip, sticking points in our game, financial troubles, work woes, and JFK assassination theories. In a way, it was a real eye opening experience for me because it had been a while since I’d hung out with someone from the community in a strictly “non-sarge” capacity. It was just two dudes chilling in a restaurant enjoying some good food.

The thought struck me how funny it is that at the end of the day, we’re all just a bunch of regular guys. On the internet, it’s so easy to attain “celebrity” or “guru” status just as long as you post prolifically and are able to spell above a kindergarten level. In fact, there are a lot of guys out there who claim to be “seducers” or “pick-up artists”who never fucking leave their computer.

My dinner with TheOne made me realize just how many guys I’ve hung out with from the community. Not only that, but hung out with them enough to see the internet persona go by the wayside and get a sense of the real people underneath. And the truth is, once you get down to it, someone like Mystery, Style, Tyler Durden, Papa, TheOne, Swinggcat, and anyone else out there you read about (I’m including me in this) is pretty much just like every other guy out there.

This includes you, dear reader.

In fact, I get a lot of emails from guys saying how amazing I am and asking when/if I’ll ever do another workshop. I find it odd how that works, because by any stretch of the imagination, I am NOT as good as some of these other guys when it comes to PUA, though I am better than others. But to many of us in the community, PUA is a very small part of our lives. Indeed, I have many other aspects of my life that I pursue, but PUA is a small (albeit important) part of my overall existence.

My point here is this: Whether you are an AFC, RAFC, BAFC, or any other ridiculous acronym, chances are you are on par with most of the guys you read about.

What does this mean?

Simple. If you guys are no different than us, then that means that you can easily be doing what we’re doing, which is going out and learning to pick-up girls.

Obviously, this is easier said than done. Lots of guys are still suffering in this area, and in a way, that’s where people like TheOne and I stand out. We have been able to overcome our fears and insecurities to the point where we are able to engage this area of our life with vigor and persistence most men can only dream of.

So in the coming days, weeks, months, or however long it takes, I’m going to be posting some stuff on how to help your inner game and how to start off approaching women. I’ll give some examples, some theory, and maybe even a few homework assignments for you truly committed out there. Hopefully I’ll even receive a few success stories to post up on the Lair.

In short, if I can do it, and TheOne can do it, you certainly can too.

Then you can open your own workshop and give Tyler a run for his money. =)


Not Into Games? Bullshit.

February 4, 2004 by  
Filed under Analysis

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/17/03

Someone on the PLAY list just asked a question that really caught my attention, because it is such a typical girl thing to talk about. Basically, it was the idea of “girls” and their hatred of “games.” Like when a girl says she’s “not into games.” Now, when a girl says this, the question on every guy’s mind is: What is she saying?

Some guys will take it at face value and try to appease her by not playing any “games” with her, adjusting their approach to suit the information she gives them. Other guys may look at this like a shit test and barrel through with lots of games and frustrate the girl into “next”-ing them.

So what’s the right tactic to use in this case? Is she lying? Telling the truth? What’s going on here?

The answer is this: Women are not into the IDEA of games, but don’t believe a word they say. They are ALL into games.

Basically, no one likes the bullshit that goes on in the manipulation that occurs between men and women, and make no mistake about it, there is manipulation going on in every relationship — especially one that involves sex.

You basically have two different factors at battle constantly in these situations — the sexual and the relationship. Women control the sexual power and men control the relationship power. Women do not like it when men are able to get them to give up their sexual power and then not return the relationship power. Men, on the other hand, do not like it when they give
up their relationship power and the women do not reciprocate with the sexual power.

That is what they mean when they say “Not into games.” That means they want to get what they want from the man. The only thing is, as soon as the man gives them what they want, chances are good they will lose interest. So when the girls go for a guy who knows this, they get upset because he’s “playing games.” Never do they realize that that’s the thing that
probably attracted her in the first place.

So rule #1: Never listen to what a girl tells you she wants. Notice what she responds to. The things they say and the things they respond to are two COMPLETELY different things.

However, I do not look at this as a shit test. I look at it as a sexual barrier (something Swinggcat will be talking about in future newsletters of his). Sexual barriers are obstacles women put up to keep you from doing what they KNOW is effective on them. Its a safeguard of sorts that when broken down, will get you EXACTLY what you want.

The funny thing about these barriers are that when they are presented to you, there are two ways around them. One is to bang your head against the barrier until it breaks, and the other is to skirt behind the barrier and enter in through the back door.

So when a barrier is presented to me, I look at it like the girl is telling me EXACTLY what I need to do to get her. If she says she’s not into games, what she’s really telling me is that games are what has been effective on her in the past. Therefore, that is what you have to do if you want to get her.

Confused yet?


Fuck Challenges

February 4, 2004 by  
Filed under Analysis

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/17/03

Okay, so my little tirade on “drama” lead to a discussion about how Men need challenges like Women need drama. Personally, I found this notion quite stupid. It sounds like something only someone with no understanding of actual people would say. Obviously, I’m not much of an authority either, but in my personal experiences, men don’t need challenge to be happy like women need drama to be happy. To men, challenge is a sporting event. Its a puzzle, its a game, its a distraction. To women, drama is an ingrained part of life (obviously, I speak in generalizations. Not ALL women crave drama 24/7. But they do crave differing amounts).

So my reply to such a statement was thus:

Men don’t crave challenges. They crave pussy.  It just
so happens getting pussy is usually a challenge.  In
fact, its TOO much of a challenge for most men.
That’s why we’re here.

So fuck challenges.  I want results.


Now, of course, my unique style of “in your face” reality didn’t sit well with a few of the armchair seducers out there. I get lame reframes in reply saying shit like “Oh you just wanna get your dick wet” and “your lack of honest introspection doesn’t help anyone” and other lame crap. In fact, I had someone suggest that I carry around a rubber latex “pussy in a bottle.” Ah, the SS List! You have to love the advice!

Anyway, I hold fast to my point — fuck challenges. Now, its true, it may sound like a bitter decry from someone who likes to whine and complain about the difficulty of getting laid. But allow me to clarify. I do not like challenges when it comes to getting NECESSITIES of life. Challenges getting food, shelter, and water are not fun, nor are they conducive to a healthy lifestyle. Same thing with sex. I look at sex much like other vital functions such as breathing, urinating, and taking a shit. It is a necessary human action. Men need to ejaculate. It is a NECESSITY to do so. Failure to do so can lead to disease and other medical problems. In fact, when men do not ejaculate, the body finds a way to do so on its own, through the use of “wet dreams” and such.

So to me, challenges when it comes to sex are bullshit. The only thing that matters is results.

However, that said, challenges are good when it comes to things like RELATIONSHIPS. Challenge in relationships keep things fresh. Challenge in the workplace or with a video game or whatever can be good to. But those things are LUXURIES. They are ENTERTAINMENT. They are based on your own personal AMBITION. They are NOT based on necessity.

The fact of the matter is that there are so many guys out there NOT getting laid, that to tell them they need more challenge is like taking a hammer to their balls. Its a fucking ridiculous statement to make, and one that flies in the face of everything we’re studying.

In fact, the very notion of a challenge is counterproductive to seduction. A challenge is a frame where you are put in a situation where you must work for something that is “prized” to you, to use Swinggcat terminology. You add value to something that challenges you. So when you’re going after pussy, and its a challenge, that pussy’s value is raised in your eyes, and that’s where the problem lies. This value is reflected in a guy’s nervousness around women. In the stutters when he talks to chicks. In the sweaty palms when he sits next to a pretty girl. Challenge is what creates this state.

The best guys in terms of seduction are guys who do not care about the outcome. They could give two shits if they get laid or not. So when they do get laid, it seems easy because that was not their goal. In these cases, there is an absence of challenge. It does not exist for these men. Yet they still have as much fun and enjoy the same success as a guy who tackles a challenge and works his butt off for it. Now, which would you rather have?

Personally, I’m a lazy bastard. I prefer the absence of challenge short of the occasional game of Warcraft 3. And I definitely prefer its absence when it comes to poon.

That’s why they call me…


The SS List — Beating a Dead Horse

February 4, 2004 by  
Filed under Analysis

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/17/03

For years, the Speed-Seduction list has been in operation. For a while, it was awesome. There was a real influx of talented seducers there coming up with “nuclear” stuff to use on chicks. Things like “The Warmth Builder,” “Riker’s 3 Rules,” and the amazing “takeaway” abounded. But then the star student turned out to be a con man and one of Ross’s fallen angels went off and started up the competition. Not only that, but and mASF opened things up for more than just Ross’s products. Since that time, the SS list has endured, but it is a shadow of what it used to be.

Like Freddy screaming at Jason, whenever I open my e-mail to find posts from the SS list in there, I can’t help but yell at the screen “WHY WON’T YOU DIE???!!!!” And then proceed to delete 99.9% of the posts, occasionally reading one that catches my eye until I realize why it is that I bother to delete most of these posts, and then proceed to kill that one as well.

The thing is, even though the SS list isn’t what it used to be, SS isn’t what it used to be either. Gone are the days where you could memorize 40 patterns and steamroll a girl into a subnamuble trance and start fondling her right away. The new SS has degenerated into tailoring shit to the girl you are seducing, which cuts your success rate down to 30% at the least. Because of this, most of the guys who have progressed in their game have opted to leave SS behind for greener pastures. What does this mean?

Simple. There are no “good” seducers on the SS list anymore. It truly is the blind leading the blind, with newbies who haven’t even finished listening to the BHSC giving advice to other newbies, therefore insuring nobody really knows what they are doing. The fact that some of the best threads on there are discussing shit that was brought up in Swinggcat’s book doesn’t help matters.

What I’m wondering is — will it get any better? Will Ross lock himself away in a closet for 6 months and re-emerge with a new form a Speed Seduction — one that actually WORKS and is a viable alternative to DYD, MM, and any of the other 6 billion forms of PUA that have sprung up since the good ol’ days? Will SMART people actually join the SS list and start posting good shit again? Or should this list be killed or die quietly? Honestly, I haven’t seen ANYTHING good come from that list since the days Bishop was posting, and he made up all his shit. Kind of says something doesn’t it?

I think my biggest problem with the SS list comes from the fact that there are actually guys out there who are genuinely in need of help and wanting to learn, and they look at all the crap that’s passing for advice on this list because they don’t know any better, and it only ends up making their situation worse because they follow the poor advice that is given. In fact, most recently, the only person on there I’ve seen give somewhat good advice is Tom Vizzini (when he’s not hocking 3D Mind or any of that other crap, that is).

I hope Ross wakes up to the fact that his list is slowly degenerating into what Apple became in the 80s and early 90s, which is a steaming pile of crap, a shell of what it once was. I hope he starts putting some quality control on his list and his products, and starts dealing with the REALITY of seduction instead of the idealized NLP version of it. I hope he actually steps up to the plate and starts teaching guys what they need to know instead of fairy tales. But then again, that may be too much work.

In the meantime, I’ll just keep deleting my SS posts.



February 4, 2004 by  
Filed under News

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03

Okay, so its December, Christmas time is here, and I’m broke. Gawd, living in LA can be expensive! But my good buddy Swinggcat said he’d help me out by giving me a percentage of any sales of his ebook I can or have generated for him. Only thing is, he doesn’t have an affiliate program up yet. So if you decide to buy his book because of something you read of mine, send him an email and let him know. If you have already bought his book, and it was because of a recommendation I gave, email him and let him know. You can hit him up at:

His book can be found at:

Help make poor ol’ Thundy’s holiday a happy one by getting him money! I assure you there will be a special place in heaven reserved for you.

Ho Ho Ho!


The Top 10 Pick-Up Artists Of 2003

February 4, 2004 by  
Filed under Analysis, Top 10 Lists

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03

Okay, so the debate has been raging for a while now over who is the best PUA (Pick-Up Artist) out there. Obviously, a lot of egos are involved in this statement, and everyone has their own opinions about who the best really is. In fact, its so subjective, that I don’t really think there will ever be a clear and honest answer on the subject. Its like asking who the best warrior or soldier is in a war. But the fact of the matter remains, no one can ever ALWAYS be the best. They’re always going to have their off days — be a little bit slow, a little bit late, a little bit unprepared or caught off guard. But that doesn’t stop some people from categorizing the people in our little community as “The Best.” So I’ve decided to throw my hat in the ring and rate the top 10 PUAs operating out there.

However, only the people I have met personally are eligible for my list. There could very well be many great PUAs out there that beat these guys out, but I have not met them and cannot verify their skills personally, so they are off my list for now, though I will mention a few afterwards who I think are worthy of it. Also, my rankings are not based on sheer skill alone, rather, they are based on consistency, and what I have seen as far as how often they are practicing what they preach. So keep that in mind as we go through this.

Thundercat’s Top 10 Pick-Up Artist

1. Style: Style is definitely, hands down, bar none, the best operating in the game today. This guy is probably the most evil, sneaky, manipulative bastard I have ever seen in operation. The thing is, this guy comes in totally under the radar, and that is why he is so dangerous. His subtlety is so amazing, that before you know it, you are qualifying yourself to him and he has you right where he wants you. And the thing is, he does it with both girls AND guys. No one is safe. To give you an idea of how incredible Style is, he’s practically invented most of the techniques a lot of the top guys, like Mystery and Tyler Durden, are using and teaching. He is practically Machiavellian in nature, and is someone I both admire and fear. I should also point out that I have a special, non-gay, place in my heart for this man, because it was with his help that I broke down my barrier with approaching women, so I owe a lot of my current game and success to Style, which is another reason why I rate him #1.

2. Swinggcat: Swinggcat comes in at a close second, and would in fact probably be number one if it weren’t for the fact that that he is a better looking guy than Style. Swinggcat is a pretty hip looking (think a shorter version of Vince Vaughn in Swingers and you get a rough idea of what Swinggcat looks like), whereas Style is a skinny, bald, jewish guy. Swinggcat is just as evil, sneaky, and manipulative, but considering what Style has to overcome in the looks department, that puts his game above Swingg’s. That said, I have seen Swinggcat in action on numerous occasions and am amazed at a lot of his game. The way he is able to process and sum up the information girls give him and turn their frame around is truly a sight to see. Not only that, he is so intuative, he can make up cold readings on the fly and be almost 100% accurate, which is fuckin’ creepy. His book only scratches the surface of his vast knowledge, and I think we’ll be getting a lot of good (and evil) stuff from his upcoming newsletters.

3. Zan: Zan is not a name that is very well known in the community, but having met the guy and seen him in action, I am convinced he is one of the top dudes out there when it comes to picking up chicks. In fact, I’d have even placed him at number 1 if it wasn’t for the fact that this guy is a “natural” seducer, and therefore what he does cannot be taught to others. But in accordance with the sheer skill of his game, he lays all others flat on their back. The thing is, the guy looks like a male model. He’s 40 years old, but looks like he’s 20. He actually USED to be a model, in fact, back in France in the 80′s I think, and his girlfriend was Monica Bellucci of the Matrix fame (hey, don’t hate the player, hate the game =). Currently, the guy has between 6 and 9 hot ass girlfriends who ALL know about each other, and apparently he enjoys many 3-somes and fuck buddies to boot. Not only that, but Zan has one of the most amazing philosophies on life I have ever heard. He spends his time moving towards beauty and away from things that are not beautiful. I hung out with the guy for only 3 days, but I am secure enough in my masculinity to say that if I was a chick, I’d have been all over him. Probably the coolest guy in the community. He was on stage at the Chicago DYD seminar, and if David DeAngelo ever decides to sell the audio to that thing, you’ll get a real treat hearing Zan speak about inner game. Simply amazing.

4. Maddash: Maddash, like Zan, is also a successful, good looking, older guy. He’s a big proponant of the “No Game” game, which is pretty much emulating the behaviors of “naturals,” such as Zan, and because of that, Maddash’s game comes off as very subtle and natural. When I saw him in action I was very impressed. It seems like he gets a new girl every night. The thing about Maddash is that his life is not ruled by PUA, he is very much into business and athletics as well. Pick-up is just a small factor of his life, but one he strives to perfect — and boy, does he do a good job at it.

5. Craig: Craig probably deserves to be higher on the list, but unfortuneately, I think the four people above him beat him as far as technique goes. That said, Craig is VERY good. He is the king of the short-set method. This is basically where you approach a set of women, say something funny/amusing, then move onto the next set and repeat. Its a very good way of being social and works great in bar scenes. Its also good for creating social proof. Craig is also a very funny guy, and his dancing skills help attract attention from others (in a good way, mind you). The quality of women Craig gets is quite high. I have yet to see him with a girl I would rank lower than a 9 on the looks scale. Not only that, but he seems to get them pretty consistantly. However, the fact that he comes off as a good looking frat guy, the fact that he has appeared on Elimidate, and the fact that he lives on a beach, are all contributing factors to his success — but that does not take away from the fact that he is very skilled. He is also one of the few PUAs I’ve seen that can do all his shit effectively while drunk. He was also on stage at the Chicago DYD seminar, so you may hear stuff from him fairly soon.

6. Mystery: Okay, I know Mystery is gonna be pissed that I rank him so low (or not. He probably doesn’t give a shit what I think. Can ya blame him?), but in my opinion, for as good as Mystery is, the other 5 guys are better. The thing about Mystery is that he’s incredibly good at raising his value in other’s eyes. I’ve seen him pull off some amazing instances of social proof with his magic tricks, and he is incredibly entertaining, funny, and exciting. Its easy to get caught up in Mystery’s spell. That said, the reason I rate him #6 is because I do not feel his long game is very good. I always get the sense that Mystery has a hard time genuinely connecting with people, and this effects his long term relationships. It seems like he can be very insecure at times and needs constant validation from others, which leads to a lot of mind games that get him his validation, but at the same time succeeds in pushing people away from him. Whether or not this is intentional, I don’t know, but it happens. He also seems to care more about adjusting his game to suit the girl than making the girl adjust to his game, which I think ends up hurting his pick-up in the long run because it is not really congruent with who he is and how he presents himself long term. In fact, if you hang out with Mystery long enough, you get the sense that everything he talks to you about is a pattern, and he always ends up bringing the conversation back to his favorite topic, which is, of course, himself. And that is the reason I put him at #6.

7. Tyler Durden: Tyler is one of the big “up and comers” in the community. His posts made him a legend on ASF, and then once he teamed up with Papa and started doing workshops, his stock only rose. For a while, there was speculation as to whether or not TD was all talk, but he proved to everybody that he was legit in the Vegas Mystery Method workshop where he not only got laid, but got Style and Mystery laid as well. I have seen Tyler at work in the field, and he is impressive. He is a genuinely funny and engaging guy with lots of interesting stuff to talk about. His posts are some of the most interesting to read in the community as well, and he backs up his teachings with lots of field experience. However, like Mystery, I get the sense that TD has problems in his long game. When he picks chicks up, he does so from the frame where he makes the girls feel like “bad girls” or “sluts.” This works good for party girls and good girls alike, but on day two when the frame wears off, the girls associate that feeling with him and then flake, because feeling bad and slutty might be exciting for a night, but long term it is not a good feeling. TD also comes off as very gay. This is not a bad thing per say, but he has adopted the “hot chick” frame so congruently, that I think when girls sleep with him, its almost incongruent with who they thought he was. I could, of course, be totally wrong in this assessment since I haven’t hung out and sarged with Tyler as much as I’d like, but I’m going off of what I have noticed.

8. Primoman: Primoman is a dude that is no longer an active member of the community, but he is still a pick-up artist in every sense of the word. Primoman is known as the “King of the Ugs.” He is a dude who I’ve yet to see without a girl on his arm. Allbeit, that girl is usually ugly, or fat, or a combination of the two, but nonetheless, it is a girl. Primoman is not so much about quality as he is about QUANTITY. He probably lays more girls than any other guy in the community, but he is also not too picky with his prospects. Regardless, he gets laid a LOT! And that’s what it all comes down to in the end. His game is very Juggler in nature. In fact, he is quite AFC in his approach, but he is just so congruent with who he is and gently persistent in his sarge, that he eventually wins the girl over. Lately he’s been working his way up the “looks” scale as far as his girls go, so he may be giving Style a run for his money some day.

9. Sickboy: Sickboy is a protogee of Tyler and Papa. He’s a New Yorker and is best known for his appearance in the movie Zoolander as one of the male models in the movie. Yes, that’s right, the guy looks like a male model. But despite this, he is incredibly down to earth and has absolutely no ego about himself. He’s a very easy guy to talk to and a good friend. His game is also quite solid, though I do think it’s helped greatly by his looks. I think his frames aren’t as strong as they could be, but he definitely has the subtleties of PUA down pat. He recently spoke to the NYC lair and that’s a great read if you can find the transcripts somewhere. He’s a guy to look out for.

10. Harmless: Harmless is not what you would expect from a PUA. He’s pretty prolific on ASF, and seems to know his shit. The thing is, the guy comes off very much as his name describes him — Harmless. He’s a pretty average looking guy who seems very unassuming at first. But then you see the guy in action, and he’s very good. I think he comes across much like Mystery and TD, where he raises his value in the girl’s eyes by being entertaining and engaging. I know I enjoy talking to the guy, if that’s any indication. I haven’t seen enough of his game in action to critique it any further, but I do know he’s going to start teaching workshops soon, so his game’s gotta be pretty high. Regardless, he’s one to keep an eye on.


There are a number of other people out there who probably deserve to be on this list, but like I said before, I have not had a chance to really see them in action. But here are a few who I think deserve a mention.

Bad Boy — Apparently this guy is amazing. I know TD gets a lot of his AMOG tactics from Bad Boy. He’s a croatian pick-up artist who was injured in the Bosnian war, which makes his game so much more incredible considering he was almost killed and still suffers the effects from that somewhat. Apparently the guy is very fearless and straight-forward agressive with women. In fact, some would descibe his game as all cocky and no funny, which is probably why its so effective. Not only that, but he is supposed to be incredibly congruent. I know he’s currently fucking Miss Croatia and using her as a pawn to pull other women for threesomes if that tells you anything about his game.

Toecutter – I don’t know the guy personally and all I have to go off of are his posts on ASF and Mystery’s Lounge, but this guy seems to have it going on. I know TD studdied his archive like the dead sea scrolls, and his posts convey a very congruent attitude. I’m interested in seeing him in action, and if I’m ever in Canada I’ll see if I can’t hook up with him.

MTLPUA — Don’t know much about him, but I hear he’s really good.

David X — I know Clifford had good things to say about him.

Chet – The Chetinator! I got to see him speak in Chicago. Supposedly he’s god-like with women, but I have yet to see him in action and can’t say for sure.

Adam – The “natural.” Look to see great things from this guy in the future!

Masterclass — The guy is currently juggling 4 girls right now. He’s also an incredibly sneaky speed seducer who is moving more into the cocky/funny stuff and having great success. Right now, I think his game could be up there with the best there is if he got past his fear of approaching.

Rick H. — The legend. I have not hung out with the guy yet, but I’m sure when I do, it’ll be veeeeeeery interesting. =)

Ross Jeffries — I’ve hung out with Ross on a few occasions now and have only sarged with him once. From what I saw, I liked, but have not done enough field work with him to accurately rate the guy. I know Papa speaks highly of him, and he’s been out in the field with him more than I have.

Papa – I go out with Papa all the time, so I’m a bit biased when it comes to his skill level. He teaches at all of TD and Mystery’s workshops as well, and his field reports are always worth a read. He’s also single-handedly bringing this community together, so he has to be respected for that at the very least. The reason I didn’t put him in the top 10 was because much of his material is from Style and Tyler. I think in order to be in the top 10, a PUA needs to be developing his own style. One thing I will say about Papa is that he is incredibly good with creating strong frames.

Alphamale – This guy is incredibly impressive. Most of his game is based on using pivots to pull girls for him. I haven’t hung out with the guy enough to get an idea of how good he is, but from what I have seen, his game is awesome.

Well, there ya go, my Top 10. Hopefully one day I’ll make my list, but I doubt it! I’m much too hard on myself, lol.

That’s why they call me…


Swingcat’s Open Loop Theory

February 4, 2004 by  
Filed under Analysis, Articles

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03
**Image removed

YEEEEEEAH! Damn, I’m buzzed. Just heard one of my favorite shows — Carnivale — got renewed by HBO for a second season. I swear, if I only had HBO on my TV and no other channel, I’d be happy. Their original programming is the best on TV! Carnivale, coupled with The Wire and the Sopranos are a few of the shows I set everything aside for to watch. I am really jazzed! You can find the announcement at the Hollywood Reporter by following this link:

Carnivale Renewed

Now, someone had to go on the SS list and start blasting my favorite fall season show by saying its too frustrating to watch. In fact, he said that it was an example of going too far with “open loops.” Now, what they’re doing discussing Swinggcat terminology on the SS board is beyond me, especially considering that Ross is a stickler for not talking about other people’s products (but since Swinggcat used to be his top student, I guess he’s making exceptions). Anyway, this discussion brought up an interesting point about open loops.

For those of you who don’t know what an Open Loop is, its a verbal form of creating insecurity, anticipation, and a need to qualify through the use of creating an open ended story. Yes, that’s a round-a-bout explanation, but its the best I can do from memory. Swinggcat has a whole chapter in his book about open loops that explains it better than I ever could. But an example of an open loop would be something like:

PUA: “You know, this place reminds me of when I was in a german sex show with my girlfriend.”
HB: “You were in a german sex show? What happened?”
PUA: “Well I was in Germany because I love McDonalds ice cream, and I made it a personal goal to try McDonalds ice cream in every country in the world. Don’t you just love ice cream?”

So what’s happening there? You set up the fact that you were doing something exotic and forbidden, but you fail to pay it off and start talking about something silly and stupid. But the whole time you’re doing that, the other person will be thinking “Yes, but what about the sex show!!!???” and if they ask you, you start talking about something else, never quite giving them what they want. That’s an open loop. Its an interesting hook that someone wants closure on, and you’re the only one who can give it to them, but you don’t. You make them work for it. Its a very sneaky, subtle, eeeeevil way to get people to qualify themselves to you. They’ll be saying shit like “Please tell me! Pleeeeeaaaaase!” And you can grin and say “I’m not sure you’ve earned it yet.” Hopefully you’re smart enough to know what that implies.

So anyway, on the SS list, there was a lot of talk about how open loops are ineffective because they are so frustrating. What many fail to understand is that open loops are MEANT to be frustrating, and that is why they feel that way. Open loops create insecurity and anticipation, two very important factors in attraction.  If you get pissed off when someone uses open loops on you, it means its working.

But there is an argument that people who intuitively use open loops end up creating an atmosphere around them that ultimately drives people away instead of attracting them, and therefor open loops should not be used. I think the important word here is “intuitive.” People who do this stuff intuitively are destined to mess it up because they do not have a conscious awareness of how this shit works.

Open loops are a way of creating drama.  They are meant to rope other people into your reality by giving them just enough to get interested, and then taking it away so they actively pursue you.

When you have a conscious awareness of how open loops work, you can use them to attract people to you.  When you do not, you can over use them and cause people to become frustrated and angry because they realize the hopelessness in their pursuit.  Women tend to overuse this tactic because they are emotional creatures and easily distracted by stimuli (this is a bit of an over-generalization here, but I’ve found it is  fairly accurate for attractive women).  It also goes towards creating drama and turmoil in their personal lives, something many women crave and create.

I think the use of open loops is a valuable tool in seduction.  I’ve seen some extremely talented Pick-Up Artists us it to great effect. But I tend to agree that if overused, any of these skills become ineffective and even detrimental to your pick-up.  That’s part of the trick to being good at this, is knowing WHEN and HOW to use these tactics.

For more information on open loops, you can either try and catch reruns of Carnivale, or buy Swinggcat’s book at Real World Seduction.