Swinggcat’s new student… Tyler Durden?

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So Tyler has a really excellent thread going in the Advanced board of mASF called “How to play hard to get, actually for real.” You can read the whole thing here.

Anyways, everyone’s loving it, and then dvs comes along and posts this:

dvs writes:
nice post. how to get girls to chase you is explained in greater depth in the realworldseduction ebook by swinggcat. it kicks ass and i recommend it to anyone interested in getting a girl to chase you. its right up there with deangelo’s shit.

i find that for me personally what works better than the active disinterest act is conveying my tentative interest. like if she says the wrong thing or doesn’t live up to my standards and expectations than I’m going to lose interest.

conveying tentative interest makes the hole thing run much smoother in terms of transitioning, IME.

I have to agree with dvs on this one. I think tentative interest is very much an important part of a seduction. I used to be in the TD camp with the whole “active disinterest” thing, but seeing Swinggcat in action and reading his book, I’ve found using tentative interest is much more effective, because it allows you to take that interest away as a form of “Push-Pull.”

Swinggcat’s new student… Tyler Durden?

So Tyler has a really excellent thread going in the Advanced board of mASF called “How to play hard to get, actually for real.” You can read the whole thing here.

Anyways, everyone’s loving it, and then dvs comes along and posts this:

dvs writes:
nice post. how to get girls to chase you is explained in greater depth in the realworldseduction ebook by swinggcat. it kicks ass and i recommend it to anyone interested in getting a girl to chase you. its right up there with deangelo’s shit.

i find that for me personally what works better than the active disinterest act is conveying my tentative interest. like if she says the wrong thing or doesn’t live up to my standards and expectations than I’m going to lose interest.

conveying tentative interest makes the hole thing run much smoother in terms of transitioning, IME.

I have to agree with dvs on this one. I think tentative interest is very much an important part of a seduction. I used to be in the TD camp with the whole “active disinterest” thing, but seeing Swinggcat in action and reading his book, I’ve found using tentative interest is much more effective, because it allows you to take that interest away as a form of “Push-Pull.”

Attraction Not Necessary?

Formhandle put up an interesting post concerning the usefulness of attraction in a sarge. You can read the thread here, but the jist of it is that Formie doesn’t think attraction is necessary to get a girl into bed (at least, not on the girl’s part, anyway). He breaks it down like this…

Formhandle writes:
1. FIND
2. MEET
3. REMOVE ASD
4. ISOLATE
5. BYPASS LMR
6. FUCK
7. ATTRACT (OPTIONAL)

Step 7 seems unnecessary, even, unless more is wanted in the future out of the interaction.

I think Formhandle brings up some good points here, but I think he misses the boat a bit. I’ve had many discussions with Swinggcat about this very subject, and I agree with Formhandle that you do not need complete attraction with a girl to get her to want to lay you. However, I think the crux of the problem with Form’s theory is his definition of attraction. Basically, I have no idea what he is talking about when he says the word ”attraction.”

To me, attraction is an intense need for validation. If a girl really needs your validation, she’s attracted to you because she will do a number of things to get that validation. And that intense need for validation is created through the use of sexual tension, where you can invalidate the girl as a sexual object and make her strive to get that back. Neo-Rio said it best when he stated If you treat a woman with respect, she feels cheap because she feels pressure to do something to advance the relationship. If you treat her like an inanimate object in your reality, she feels special because you’re making all the effort and she doesn’t have to do squat.

Swinggcat has this concept called ”Sexual Barriers,” which is what Formhandle is indirectly referring to with the theories in his post. Basically, sexual barriers are obstacles a woman puts up to keep others from finding out how to have sex with her. The example Swingg uses all the time is being with a girl who’d fuck anyone at the drop of a hat, but refuses to kiss because it’s ”Too Intimate.” Usually, most guys will try to kiss the girl and then move into sex, but with this girl, Kissing is a sexual barrier — so when she rejects a kiss from a guy, the guy may think ”Oh, she’s not into me. I can’t have sex with her.” When in reality, he could simply bypass this sexual barrier and go for the lay through another method, such as intense kino, body sensations, etc.

Most people would just pound against these barriers hoping they’d be able to break them down. What I think Swinggcat and Formhandle are saying is that there are OTHER ways to get a girl to sleep with you rather than through conventional method. Sex is such a large part of many women’s lives, that I think it’s not unrealistic to bypass most social graces and go for what you want. It’s something I’m experimenting with in my game at the moment, and I think it brings up a very valid point, which is most guys don’t understand what attraction is or what it means to women.

Something to think about, eh?

Thundercat

What Women Do To Us

There was a fairly decent thread on mASF today entitled ”Stuff I Understand Now That Women Do It To Me,” started by Dimitri. You can read it here. It’s nothing groundbreaking or earth shattering, but Neo-Rio had a great little responce to it. Paraphrased, he basically says:

Seduction (acting a certain way to get people to like you) is primarily a FEMALE thing that women do to MEN who have power.

MEN on the other hand, HAVE NO NEED to be nice or pad their words out carefully making sure not to offend anyone. We don’t need to pay any attention to women in order to get them to like us. Women feel as if they HAVE TO lie and act a certain way to gain power over men. REAL MEN have no need to lie or act a certain way to women. We can just be ourselves, and let women do all the fancy bullshit. Meanwhile, we can just go after what we want. (and if that means we’d rather eat than talk…. so be it)

I think Neo nails this one right on the head here, and he does it in such a short, sweet, and straightforward (invented by Ross in LA 99) way. I think this is really the true attitude of a seducer, one in which he is detached from all outcome, and in fact forces the girl to qualify herself to him in an effort to get rapport. I know this is an incredibly powerful technique, because I’ve hung out with the master of this whole frame — Adam the Natural. Truely a guy who has NO NEED to be nice or pad words out. This guy’s whole philosophy is thus: It doesn’t really matter. And because of that, he is able to get women like no other.

I think a lot of guys make the mistake of approaching a woman as though she is the prize to be won over. When you do this, you are effectively giving away any power you have in that interaction, because she has the power to either approve or invalidate you as a potential sex partner. But when you approach a woman really NOT CARING about the outcome, a funny thing happens — in a very subtle way, you put the woman on the defensive, making her have to PROVE herself to you and get your validation because your attitude is such that you STEAL any power of approval from her.

I’ve seen Adam do this a few times, and it is really incredible. This is basically the attitude of being the ”asshole women love,” or the ”No-game game” as Maddash would put it. Before long, the woman finds herself chasing the man who truely doesn’t care, which only makes her chase him harder. One thing about Adam is that he does this Naturally, and because of that he can take it too far. If he was aware of what he was doing, he’d be able to calibrate where the girl is and feed her little bits of validation to keep her chasing him. But after a while, the girl just gets so frustrated with the whole process of having to prove herself that she’ll move on. Of course, to Adam, it just DOESN’T MATTER. There’s always another girl out there. Thus is the power of this frame. And I think Neo-Rio really nailed it.

Thundercat

Mental Note

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 1/18/04

When a girl tells you she doesn’t have a boyfriend without you asking, it is both a huge indicator of interest and warning sign.

Thundercat

Manipulation and Morality

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 1/13/04

So an "Anonymous" poster has decided to step up and indite my little post on the Subtle Art of Manipulation.  I say "Anonymous" because he seems to prefer not to stand beside what he said, even though I can read his IP address so it really doesn’t matter.  Regardless, he does make a good point.  For those of you who might have missed it, this is what he wrote:

********************************************
This community is fucked up when you celebrate duplicity and manipulativeness as if it were a virtue. Do you think the girls can’t see that same duplicities in this guy that you can? Why would you emulate this guy? And be plain faced manipulative?
********************************************

What this person fails to realize (or maybe he does realize it) is that this community is built on duplicity and manipulativeness.  Everything we learn to do is geared towards manipulating other people to get what we want.  In fact, pretty much anything in life is like that.  The only difference here is that we make a conscious effort to do so, and are aware of what we are doing.

Which brings up an interesting question about morality.  Basically, the question is:  Is manipulation wrong?  Is it a bad thing?  The answer to that is a difinitive — MAYBE.

If you look at these tactics for maipulation, the stuff we learn to help convince girls to sleep with us, they are in and of themselves AMORAL.  They simply exist.  They are psychological realities that exist in every person, and they will always respond in certain fashions when stimulated a certain way.  The thing that makes manipulation "good" or "bad" is the intention behind it.  If you manipulate a sick friend to see a doctor, is that a bad thing?  By the same token, if you manipulate a poor man to give you all of his money, is that a good thing?  It all depends on the person doing the manipulation.

In the study of seduction, if you manipulate a woman to sleep with you because you’re attracted to her and you want to give her a great experience that you both can share, is that bad?  Not if you’re the type of guy who likes to please women.  However, if you’re the type of guy looking to use and abuse women, and you sleep with them for the power trip it gives you, then it can be argued that the manipulation is a bad thing, because it’s meant to hurt the woman rather than give her a great experience.  And when it comes down to it, that all depends on who is doing the seducing.

The thing I think is telling about this person’s reply, however, is how they point out that I think girl’s can’t pick up on the same duplicities in this guy that I did.  This tells me he missed the whole point of my post (then again, maybe he didn’t =).  The fact is, the thing that made this experience so amazing to me was the fact that NO ONE — man or woman — would have picked up any duplicity from this person IF THEY WEREN’T EXPECTING IT.  That is what makes it so amazing.  The subtlety behind it, the gentle manipulation that goes unseen… it’s simply masterful.

I can emulate this guy who did this in the same respect that an artist can emulate Da Vinci after viewing the Mona Lisa.  After seeing the art he created, breaking it down, studying it, noticing the rhyme and reason behind it — you begin to realize the talent it takes to create such a thing.  And when it comes to manipulation, not just create it — but USE it.  Like painting, manipulation is an art.  But its such a difficult art to master, because you do not deal with concrete substances like paint and canvas.  You deal with people’s thoughts, emotions, and reactions.  For that reason, it is so much more volitile and unpredictable than any other art out there, that when you meet someone with such mastery over it you cannot help but be in awe of them.  It just so happens that most people either never recognize their talent or view it such as this "anonymous" poster did, which is: in the wrong way.

In the end, it all depends on what you use these skills for.  They can be used for good and bad, depending on the person using them.  I like to think I’m a good enough guy where I wouldn’t do bad things with this knowledge.  But regardless, morality has no place in the study of pursuasion and influence.  This is a science, nothing more, which is why I can look at something like this and be in awe of it.  I compare it to looking at a nuclear explosion.  It is something that can be terribly destructive, but it is also something that can be awe inspiring and beautiful.  It all depends on how you look at it.

Thundercat

The Taboos of Seduction

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 1/12/04

Saturday night, I found myself out on the town with my buddy Roadking, as well as my friend Alleycat (the artist formerly known as Poet Dude.  Will this guy ever stop changing his handle?).  We got together at a strip club that Roadking and I have had some success with in the past, and spent some quality time making fun of every stripper we could see.  Alleycat and I even created a new game, where we’d make fun of the stripper’s asses by using “ghetto” jokes (in the vein that they had “big asses” or “ghetto booty”).  I won the game with the best zinger of the night, which was basically – “That booty is so ghetto, it’s last welfare check bounced.”  That’s right, those words came out of my mouth.  Mom would be proud.

So the next stop of the night was down in Santa Monica, which had a kicking night scene.  In fact, I’d even go so far as to say that Main Street in Santa Monica is slowly taking over Sunset’s role as the best place to club hop.  Not only were there lots and lots of pretty young girls there, but the bars/clubs were very cool, close together, and cover free (always a plus).  The only drawback is that everything shuts down at a ridiculous time of 1:45 am.  In a way this can be good, because it might make it easier to pull from the bars, but it means you also have to get there earlier, which sucks.  But my experiences there with Roadking and Alleycat helped open my eyes to a few things and got me thinking about specifics of Pick-Up and Seduction.

Its funny how, when all the cards are down, our sex drive is very much animalistic – mainly because we are a type of animal.  I was watching something on Animal Planet today about the mating rituals of animals, and it struck me as odd how animals are so different from humans when it comes to sex.  As we all learned in the first grade (or when we got our first dog or cat), the female animal goes into heat at certain times of the year, and that draws the male of the species to them for some hot, stinky, animal lovin’.  At this time, the males are no longer concerned with hunting or anything like that, all they are after is pussy.  And then, once the female falls out of heat, everything goes back to normal and the male can care less if he’s getting his rocks off.  But the interesting thing is that during that time period of heat induced sex, the animals become rather moody and violent, mating in ways that can actually be quite dangerous.

This got me thinking that it’s probably a good thing that human females don’t go into heat.  But then the thought crossed my mind that when it comes to sex with humans, we’re still rather moody and violent, mating in ways that can actually be quite dangerous.  So maybe we’re wrong, and the difference is that girls are ALWAYS in heat.  But if that’s the case, why aren’t we raping chicks left and right?  That can only mean that human females are not, and don’t go into, heat of any sort.  This is a funny thought, because that means something very interesting:

Unlike animals, for humans, there is no division between sex and daily life.

Which means that there is no time of year where we as men are free from our desire to mate.  It’s never “turned off” and we can get back to hunting and frolicking in the wilderness.  Instead, we are constantly bombarded with sexual impulses, and because of that our lives are usually filled with distraction, depression, frustration, and anger.  So if we are all always constantly experiencing these sexual impulses, what is keeping us from acting upon them and pouncing on every woman that gives us a fraction of a boner?

The only thing I can think of is the social mores that have been thrust upon us.  That there have been rules, restrictions, and limits placed on our behavior.  In short, we have created a system of social pressures that continually keeps us repressed, keeps our desires in check, and for many of us, keeps us from getting laid.  Namely, we’re reigned in by “Taboos.”

Look at all the taboos we have out there:  Incest is bad.  Sex before marriage is bad.  Sex with little kids is bad.  Sex with members of the same sex is bad.  Sex with animals is bad.  Adultery is bad.  Sex with multiple partners is bad.  Orgies are bad.  Oral sex is bad.  Anal sex is bad.  Doggie Style is bad.  Rough sex is bad…

The list goes on.  Now, I’m not here to judge these taboos.  Some of them are necessary (like Incest and pedophilia).  But if you look at it in a machiavellian sense, if you strip away all the social restrictions thrust upon us which we did not have the right to willingly adopt ourselves – the deck is very much stacked against us when it comes to getting laid.

Look at what is socially acceptable nowadays.  Dating.  Dating sucks, but we’re taught that the best way to get laid is to ask a girl out, take her out to eat, take her to a movie, buy her gifts, profess our undying love, marry her, and THEN get laid.  Well, I call bullshit on that.  Any guy out there who’s ever dated a woman in the hopes of fucking her knows this is a really inefficient system of achieving your goal.
The real goal here is SEDUCTION.  It’s the process of picking up a girl and attracting her to you, to the point where she wants to drop her pants and give you a piece of that pie.  But even the process of seduction is so taboo, that we as men are practically left impotent my modern society.

Because of all these restrictive taboos, human sexual energy has to be channeled into other activities.  Things like business, art, hunting, war – what have you.  Everything becomes an extension of our need for sex, because that energy has to be channeled somewhere, lest we destroy ourselves with it.  In fact, I’m willing to bet if you see someone who’s really productive, be it at the office or home, chances are they aren’t getting laid, simply because all that energy is being redirected somewhere else.

But as seducers, if we realize this, if we realize that these taboos exist, we can exploit them to our benefit.  It comes down to a very simple concept of seduction:  Everyone wants what they cannot have.  All these taboos tell us what we CAN’T or SHOULDN’T do.  As soon as we are told “no” or that this person or this activity was taboo, instinctively we’d become curious about it.  We’d find ourselves drawn to it simply because it is denied us.  What man out there hasn’t fantasized about doing something that is considered unacceptable by society?

This, in my opinion, is the embodiment of seduction.  It’s about exploiting a psychological weakness of humans that makes us irresistibly drawn to things that are forbidden.  That curiosity of taboos, the secret desire for a walk on the wild side, a peek into the underbelly of civilization where all our most deprived and forbidden fantasies exist.

However, some could argue that this doesn’t exist in this day and age, where so many of those taboos have been discarded.  Women are much more sexual and free in this era.  Homosexuality doesn’t carry that stigma to it, and bisexual women freely experiment with men and women every day.  Nothing is really taboo anymore.  But I’m thinking the exact opposite may be true.  Because of my observations in Santa Monica last night, and how I got to see the pinnacle of liberated women, I would have to say that I think there is great potential out there for women to be seduced more powerfully than any other time in history.
Basically, I think taboos have been broken because in modern times, everybody is too busy to be constrained by them.  We work longer hours, we have more we need to accomplish, we have bills to pay, people to meet, things to do, phone calls to return, email to answer, etc.  There is a continual feeling in the modern adult world that we are just TOO BUSY.  We never quite have any time for ourselves, never time to rest.  But I’d argue all this work and responsibility is just another form of taboo – it’s a way to regulate people, to divert that sexual energy of ours, to keep us confined to the dating mindset.  It keeps that Protestant culture that America was founded upon alive and well and keeps our lives devoid of pleasure and playfulness, replacing that with guilt and hard work.

On a social level, there remains a lot of pressure for us to conform with the masses.  There are all kinds of taboos and limits out there when it comes to how we are expected to behave.  There’s political correctness, which inhibits us from expressing how we truly feel.  We have an overdeveloped consciousness that makes us judgmental and causes us to scrutinize our life in political terms – if I say this, will I be looked down upon?  If I buy this, how will it reflect on my image?  If I wear these clothes, will I be accepted?  If I tell others how I feel, will I be shunned?  When you add all this up, I think many of us feel more repressed and restricted than anyone else in history.  But because of this, I think we secretly yearn for adventure, excitement, a chance to shirk all responsibility and to use our time for play instead of work.  We want pleasure, the chance to enjoy life.

And that’s what being a great seducer boils down to in my opinion.  Being a person who creates those escapes, those alternatives, those temptations.  Like they say, the best way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it.  So it is up to us to exploit those taboos to get what we want – sex.

How do we do this?  There are many ways out there.  All the systems are in a way designed to do this in certain respects.  Mystery Method is about escapism, wowing others with entertaining stories and getting them wrapped up in your charisma.  Speed Seduction is about leading their imagination and making them think about all the things they’d rather be doing.  Double Your Dating is about interrupting their reality and sucking them into yours.  We use all sorts of tools, from talking about childhood fantasies, to using time distortion and false time constraints, to playing upon gender roles, to using preplanned routines to wow them.

The truth is that every human encounter has a sexual undertone and every interaction is a potential seduction.  All that differs is how you use that interaction to get what you want.  But the exploitation of taboos seems to open up all types of possibilities that the methods I listed above do not seem to cover.  This, coupled with my experience in “The Subtle Art of Manipulation” post have opened my eyes to a new direction, and what I feel could very well be the future of seduction science.  If you’re a careful reader, you can probably already guess what I’m talking about, but I haven’t field tested it enough to really talk about it in more detail just yet.

But when I do, you can bet you’ll read it here first.

Thundercat

The Subtle Art of Manipulation

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 1/8/04

I really value my friends.  In fact, I cherish my friends.  If you’re my friend, I will bend over backwards to help you, because in my view, you’ve earned the right to recieve my help.  Being my friend also means you’ve earned the right to recieve my trust.  And being my friend means that no matter what happens, in the end, I’ll always be on your side.  Its very hard to find good friends in life.  The type of friends you’d entrust your life to.  One quality about friendship I admire is that true friends never really NEED anything from each other.  Its just enough to be together, to enjoy each other’s company, to share time with someone without any expectation whatsoever.  Our friends help define our lives.

That is why it is SO important to know who your friends are.  True friends can be very valuable, becuase they will return your loyalty and trust with their own.  Fareweather friends can be quite detrimental, because they will use you as long as they have use for you, and when that use no longer exists, they will betray all that you have given them.  And finally, you have the most volitile category, which is the people you WANT to be your friends.  They are people who embody the values and traits you look for in friends, yet are not your friend — and therefor not responsible to you in anyway.  This can lead to great friendships, or terrible disasters.  I bring this up because I recently had something similar happen to me.

There’s a man who I greatly respect out there, whom I admire in many respects.  He’s not only successful with women, but also life in general.  I feel I owe this guy a great debt, because he has helped me in the past, and the only way I knew how to repay such a debt with with my friendship.  But when it was offered, it was met with rejection.  I basically got the jist that I was not important enough to be his friend.  All my offers for meetings were met with excuses, and most phone calls were not returned.  This isn’t a bad thing, though.  It’s fine if someone does not wish to be my friend, I won’t think any less of them.  I knew this man whom I admire probably wouldn’t want me as a friend, but I felt I had to offer it anyway.  When it was declined, I accepted the result and went on with my life.  But that never really affected the way I felt about him.  I still look up to the guy, because he has a skillset and attitude that I am, to put it simply, in awe of.  And I can only hope to achieve some of the success he has.

So I guess I was a little surprized when I hear from him out of the blue after literally months of not hearing a peep from him.  And of course, its because he wants something from me, which isn’t necessarilly a bad thing, but it was the way he did it that somewhat irked me a bit.  Now, I guess its pretty obvious I’d love to have this guy as a friend.  I’d like to have him as someone I can trust and rely on, which is why I suppose I still look up to him.  But what happened today really opened my eyes to a few things and served as a nice wake-up call to me about certain aspects of my life.

Simply put, I consider this guy to be the master at manipulation.  Better than anyone who’s in the community.  He is really awe inspiring because of the fact that he is so good at manipulating others, you don’t even know he’s doing it!  If I had a fraction of the skill this guy has, I’d be getting laid every night of the week.

But he made a mistake with me when he called.  I’m not sure if it was intentional or not, but its something that put me on guard instantly.  Basically, he called me as a friend.  I found this funny because he made it fairly clear that he had no use for me as a friend, and because of this, I put up my guard.  And in a way, it helped me to see what this guy was doing to me.  If I hadn’t been aware of it, I could have fallen for everything he was doing.  It was so subtle and amazing what he did, that I’m actually inspired to break it down and use it on women.

The first thing he did was compliment me.  This is a great tactic because it disarms your target.  It puts the target in a power position because a compliment is inherently a form of qualification.

The second thing he did was ask me for a small favor, which I returned graciously because it wasn’t a big deal to do so, and the compliment paved the way for this to be reciprocated.  But what the favor really did was pull me into his realitiy.  But it doesn’t have to be a favor, it could be a simple question, just as long as the target is giving you something you wat.  What he did set the frame where its okay for me to give him what he wants, which is exactly where you want your target to be for the next step, which is:

Go for the kill.

At this point, you basically go after exactly what you want from the person your manipulating, and you frame it in such a way where its of great benefit for them to do so.  You’ve already established that they have the "power" and it’s okay to give you what you want, so as long as you go after it powerfully enough, you can get what you’re after from your target.  But there’s a greater depth to this part of the tactic than meets the eye.  In a way, this is where the manipulation gets the most evil, because in order to go in for the kill, you have play off other people’s insecurities and put them in a position where they have to start qualifying themselves to you — basically giving you ALL the power you want while still having the illusion that it’s all theirs.

This man, whom I admire, was doing many things to turn the tables on me.  Basically, he was trying to make me feel pathetic by pointing out things he was hoping would touch on an insecurity of mine (he was mistaken about these insecurities, but I think that may have been the point).  If I hadn’t had my guard up, I probably would have instantly started qualifying myself and giving him EXACTLY what he wanted.

However, at this point I balked.  I kept my mouth shut.  It is here where most guys might give up (especially if their target is a woman), but being the master this dude is, he kept going, and his tactics got even more manipulative.

The first thing he did was point out all the other people who had agreed to what he was asking me for.  They are people I admire and respect as well, so he was qualifying his request by implying that I could join part of this crowd by going along with what he wanted, and in a way, be validated by them.  When I balked again, he did a takeaway.  But when he did the takeaway, he also changed his tone to one of frustration and disappointment.  Now, this takeaway did work — like it usually does in most cases because after you feel someone has qualified themselves to you, if they get angry they are going to take the validation you recieved from that qualification away from you — but I was still not ready to commit to what he wanted from me.  I think I was in such awe with what was happening to me that I really didn’t want it to end because I found it fascinating, but by this point it seemed all pretext of friendship was dropped and this guy whom I respect had already made his decision to move on, but not before adding in a false time constraint to put pressure on me to make up my mind.  This added an immediacy to the situation that may or may not have existed, but regardless, the intended effect worked.  I felt under the gun.

When I got off the phone with him, I was stunned at what had taken place.  I imagine it was much like what the architect of the atomic bomb felt when he witnessed the beauty of the destruction he helped create, torn between his feelings of utter terror and utter amazement.  To think that someone out there possesses such power as this — and not only that, is AWARE of the power and KNOWS what he’s doing… well, that’s just frightening.  But it gave me such an incredible insight into how his mind works and the process he goes about interacting with people… well, I guess I’m still speachless to a certain extent.

I’m very much aware this man isn’t my friend.  But I still harbor such respect and admiration for him, it’s hard to be angry about what he attempted to do.  In fact, I’m probably more in awe of him now than I’ve ever been.  Whether or not it was intentional or he’s incorporated these skills so seamlessly that it’s part of who he is doesn’t really matter.  The fact is, it happened, and the process of which I got a glimpse into is utterly amazing.

So much so, I am now convinced of the Power of the Dark Side.

Thundercat

Getting Laid or Validation — Which is More Important?

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 1/8/04

You know, its a funny little world we live in. As someone who studies pick-up and seduction, I like to think back from time to time as to how I got into it and why. If you’ve read the first post I ever put up on the site, you’ll see how I got into it, but that’s not the same thing as why. Initially, the “why” could be explained very simply: I wanted to get liad. Period. End of story. But the further I got into my studies, the more people I met, and the more gurus I’ve hung out with, the more I’ve begun to realize that this isn’t really about getting laid at all.

That’s not to say getting laid isn’t a part of it. But in all honesty, most of the guys I’ve met who make seduction their whole life have moved beyond that point — where it’s not just enough to get laid, but it has to be by a certain type of girl, who is a certain type of good looking, and others have to know about their success and look up to them because of it. In short, for many people out there, it ceases to be about getting laid and becomes more about VALIDATION.

Seriously, if it was all about getting laid, why not just save up some money, move to the Phillipines, and fuck whores all day long for less than $3 a night? If its about getting laid, why bother rating girls on a 1-10 scale? If its about getting laid, why bother charging people for products or getting names out in magazines and newspapers? Why bother flaming people on message boards? Why? Why? Why???

Because that’s not the reason behind any of this. I think men get into this field because there is some type of deep-seated insecurity within them that they are constantly trying to cure. That’s the need for approval, not just from people, but from beautiful women specifically. Its that scared little kid inside all of us who got laughed at when he asked the most popular girl in school out to the prom, or got told on when he tried to kiss a girl on the playground. Its that dark little place in all of us that seeks the validation of knowing we’re good enough to be desired by somebody.

But I’m starting to think that at some point, that doesn’t become enough. I know a few guys who get laid like crazy, by very beautiful women in fact, and that still doesn’t cure that insecurity. Its almost like they have to get that hole filled with the validation and accolades of others, which is where I think some guys end up. Its not just enough to be loved by a beautiful woman, rather, they have to be loved by everybody! Hense the need for constant validation, which leads people to go to great lengths to get it. And in a way, I think that this is a very dangerous trend, becuase it’s not a solution to the problem. The problem goes much deeper than getting laid or getting validated.

I think it can be boiled down to the very nature of who we are, and how we view ourselves. I know it may sound like a bunch of new age bullshit, but maybe its becuase many of us don’t love ourselves that our lives are so devoid of love — be if from a beautiful woman or your peer group. Maybe that ball of self-loathing in your gut is slowly poisoning all your interactions with people, keeping you stuck in the exact spot you don’t want to be in.

As I get more into Inner Game, I begin to realize about myself that there is a certain ammount of loathing I harbor. I don’t like the fact that I’m not as good looking as I can be. I don’t like the fact that I’m not as thin as I can be. I don’t like the fact that I’m not as cool, or interesting, or funny as I can be. And all that shit adds up to me harboring resentment against myself — which in the long run hurts me more than anything else out there.

So what’s the solution to this? How does one go about falling in love with oneself? How do you forgive each and every shortcoming you have? I think this is important because if you can’t truly love yourself, how can you expect anyone to ever love you in return? Because of this, you may never be happy, doomed to a self-destructive cycle of seeking validation, but never truly getting it.

Its something to think about, I suppose. I may even be something that keeps me up at night.

Thundercat

The Harmful Art of “Smeagoling”

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 1/6/04

Its funny why people get into the study of seduction and pick-up. Some get into it seeking to suppliment their skills. Others get into it to try and improve an area of their life they feel is lacking. And still others enter into its study because everything else has failed them. I’ve gotten to meet a lot of different people in my study of this subsection of psychology. Some of them are incredibly cool, others are boarderline psychotic. But most of the guys I’ve meet tend to fall in another category. And that is the category of “people with no social skills whatsoever.”

Its true, most guys who are bad with women are bad with social skills. Period. They do not know how to talk to people, how to relate with people, or how to connect with people. They can often be antisocial or shy to the extreme, not to mention insecure in almost all aspects of their lives. And when these types of people get into studying seduction, its almost as if they are handed a loaded gun and are sent off on a killing spree. For the first time in their lives, they are given a technology designed to suppliment their lack of social graces and they are more than willing to use it.

This gives birth to the “creepy seducer guy,” or what I like to call “Smeagols.” Smeagol is the Hobbit that turned into the creature Gollum in the Lord of the Rings. Its a funny parallel, but a valid one in my opinion. If you look at the character of Smeagol, he is a sad, pathetic character torn apart by hate, insecurity, weakness, and insurmountable mental anguish. He’s someone who what shunned by society, and harbors great bitterness and resentment towards it in return. But despite all this, Smeagol is a sneaky motherfucker. He is able to lie, and cheat, and steal, manipulating others to get what he wants. But he does so in a way where you never really trust him, and he comes off as creepy and two-faced.

This brings us to the guys with no social skills. I, and a few others, have noticed that in our associations with people who suffer from the lack of social skills and try to make up for it with the use of seduction tactics, often come off much like the dasterdly hobbit Smeagol, eventually blowing themselves out of sets by ringing too many of the girl’s alarm bells.

I noticed this in SS a lot. That is not to say that the skillset itself is bad, rather those who use it incorrectly often came off as “Smeagoling.” I know I’ve been guilty of this more than once when running pattern after pattern on a girl until they realized something wasn’t quite right and blew me out. This is also probably the largest problem people face when running game.

The harmful art of Smeagoling is quite hard to avoid unless you’ve got your inner game in such a place where you are congruent with the tactics you are using. Even the best of the best get blown out by Smeagoling because girls can pick up that they aren’t quite congruent with what they are presenting to them. Smeagoling can also occur when you push too hard for the close. So desperate are you for that “ring of power” between the girl’s legs, you’ll often push too hard and drive your “precious” away.

So how do you avoid Smeagoling the girl away? Well, the best tactic is to get her to chase you as opposed to agressively pursuing her. This is one of the reasons I dislike the “Make the Ho say No” Gunwitch style, though there is a time and place for that tactic. Often times, I’ve found the most powerful techniqes are those that push the girl away as opposed to pulling her back in. That is why something like “Cocky/Funny” works so well. Changing your reality to one where the girl is trying to seduce you and you constantly push her away and even BREAK rapport with her can be very powerful.

Some of the best tactics I know of to counter Smeagoling are in Swinggcat’s book, simply because his method is very much designed to prize yourself and turn the tables on the girl. DYD is very good to. Mystery Method has a certain Smeagol Factor because it depends on social proofing, where you need to tailor your approach to suit others a bit too much, not to mention that Mystery Method also uses a lot of tricks/gimmics (depending on the user, that is). The Old style of Speed Seduction had a high Smeagoling factor, and I think it still exists to a certain extent, especially since a lot of the newer stuff in SS is very blatently psychologicaly manipulative.

But no matter what method you use, nothing beats the Smeagol factor like being a confident person who is congruent with everything you do and say. And the only way I know how to do that is get to work on that inner game!

Getting away from the computer has been known to help as well. =)

Thundercat

The Harmful Art of “Smeagoling”

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 1/6/04

Its funny why people get into the study of seduction and pick-up. Some get into it seeking to suppliment their skills. Others get into it to try and improve an area of their life they feel is lacking. And still others enter into its study because everything else has failed them. I’ve gotten to meet a lot of different people in my study of this subsection of psychology. Some of them are incredibly cool, others are boarderline psychotic. But most of the guys I’ve meet tend to fall in another category. And that is the category of “people with no social skills whatsoever.”

Its true, most guys who are bad with women are bad with social skills. Period. They do not know how to talk to people, how to relate with people, or how to connect with people. They can often be antisocial or shy to the extreme, not to mention insecure in almost all aspects of their lives. And when these types of people get into studying seduction, its almost as if they are handed a loaded gun and are sent off on a killing spree. For the first time in their lives, they are given a technology designed to suppliment their lack of social graces and they are more than willing to use it.

This gives birth to the “creepy seducer guy,” or what I like to call “Smeagols.” Smeagol is the Hobbit that turned into the creature Gollum in the Lord of the Rings. Its a funny parallel, but a valid one in my opinion. If you look at the character of Smeagol, he is a sad, pathetic character torn apart by hate, insecurity, weakness, and insurmountable mental anguish. He’s someone who what shunned by society, and harbors great bitterness and resentment towards it in return. But despite all this, Smeagol is a sneaky motherfucker. He is able to lie, and cheat, and steal, manipulating others to get what he wants. But he does so in a way where you never really trust him, and he comes off as creepy and two-faced.

This brings us to the guys with no social skills. I, and a few others, have noticed that in our associations with people who suffer from the lack of social skills and try to make up for it with the use of seduction tactics, often come off much like the dasterdly hobbit Smeagol, eventually blowing themselves out of sets by ringing too many of the girl’s alarm bells.

I noticed this in SS a lot. That is not to say that the skillset itself is bad, rather those who use it incorrectly often came off as “Smeagoling.” I know I’ve been guilty of this more than once when running pattern after pattern on a girl until they realized something wasn’t quite right and blew me out. This is also probably the largest problem people face when running game.

The harmful art of Smeagoling is quite hard to avoid unless you’ve got your inner game in such a place where you are congruent with the tactics you are using. Even the best of the best get blown out by Smeagoling because girls can pick up that they aren’t quite congruent with what they are presenting to them. Smeagoling can also occur when you push too hard for the close. So desperate are you for that “ring of power” between the girl’s legs, you’ll often push too hard and drive your “precious” away.

So how do you avoid Smeagoling the girl away? Well, the best tactic is to get her to chase you as opposed to agressively pursuing her. This is one of the reasons I dislike the “Make the Ho say No” Gunwitch style, though there is a time and place for that tactic. Often times, I’ve found the most powerful techniqes are those that push the girl away as opposed to pulling her back in. That is why something like “Cocky/Funny” works so well. Changing your reality to one where the girl is trying to seduce you and you constantly push her away and even BREAK rapport with her can be very powerful.

Some of the best tactics I know of to counter Smeagoling are in Swinggcat’s book, simply because his method is very much designed to prize yourself and turn the tables on the girl. DYD is very good to. Mystery Method has a certain Smeagol Factor because it depends on social proofing, where you need to tailor your approach to suit others a bit too much, not to mention that Mystery Method also uses a lot of tricks/gimmics (depending on the user, that is). The Old style of Speed Seduction had a high Smeagoling factor, and I think it still exists to a certain extent, especially since a lot of the newer stuff in SS is very blatently psychologicaly manipulative.

But no matter what method you use, nothing beats the Smeagol factor like being a confident person who is congruent with everything you do and say. And the only way I know how to do that is get to work on that inner game!

Getting away from the computer has been known to help as well. =)

Thundercat

Initial Fear of the Approach

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/22/03

Someone on the DC list asked a pretty good question about approaching and fear of the approach. They talked about how hard it was to approach women initially in SS. I think this is a pretty valid point, because the first stage in anyone’s development as a seducer or pick-up artists is to learn how to approach girls.

Speaking as someone who comes from an SS background, I can feel for guys who are going through this. IMO, SS is one of the WORST systems for helping guys learn to cold approach. When I was just doing strict SS, I could not cold-approach to save my life. In fact, some of the best Speed Seducers I know cannot cold approach. They get most of their lays through social circles or the internet. That said, cold approaching is just very hard in general.

The best way to get over this, in my opinion, is to attend an in-field workshop. I know there was one in DC recently taught by Tyler Durden. Nothing helps more than having live, in-field instruction and demonstration by experienced people who can help you troubleshoot and guide you through the process. The only people doing this currently that I know of is Tyler Durden, Mystery, Badboy, and Harmless, who will be starting his workshops up in the coming months. That said, workshops are very “shit or get off the pot” in their nature. They will kick-start you into approaching, but they are NOT very conducive to mental masturbators and armchair seducers, so be sure you are prepared for it.

Short of that, hooking up with other guys who do this stuff is the best way to go. I know a lot of guys in the DC area are getting together on a regular basis to wing each other, which is a great way to learn. I started up my own lair in LA to help me out. Sometimes, just having others to talk to about this shit is good to help increase your skills.

The hardest part about approaching is just overcoming that fear of rejection. We all become so conditioned to avoiding emotional pain, that we get that knot in our stomachs every time we are about to talk to a girl we find attractive. The best guys I’ve seen at this have no fear of approaching because they are able to detach themselves from the outcome. Whenever you see a beautiful girl you wanna bang, you give her a lot of sexual power over you, which you then have to go about trying to regain in order to effectively sarge her.

What I’m doing in my game right now is getting to the point where I do not feel the need to give the girl that power. Where my inner game has hit such a level that I do not have to get validation from a girl. Its a tough thing to do, and something I’m struggling with. But all I have to do is look at someone like Zan, who is completely free of all that bullshit, to the point where he naturally attracts people to him. Its a very powerful and congruent way to live your life.

I’ll probably talk about this more later. Right now I gotta run. Gonna hang out with my brother and his hippy friends.

Thundercat

Stuart Smiley was Full of Shit

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/22/03

I want to talk about something that has been a part of the seduction community since Ross Jeffries recorded two little cassette tapes in someone’s garage back in ’97. Its something that is an evil, dirty, foul little beast which in my opinion has no business being ANYWHERE near the people who are actually trying to get good at this stuff. So what am I speaking of? Simple. I am speaking of:

Affirmations.

The reason I speak of this is because there is a topic on mASF that caught my eye. Here it is:

Topic: Affirmations (1 of 8), Read 343 times
Conf: >> General
From: 7
Date: Sunday, December 21, 2003 08:35 AM

I have a few questions about affirmations.

Do you use them and do they work for you?

When do you say them and for how long?

I have noticed that they stop working if I stop using them so do I have to keep doing them constantly or will the changes ever become permanent?

Someone suggested recording the affirmations to cd or cassette. Anyone noticed if listening to them has the same effect as saying them?

Would subliminal recordings be more effective? Anyone here know how to make subliminals?

Here is something for you to test. Last night I tried a new affirmation and I got approached twice. That rarely ever happens so it must have been the affirmation.

Here is the affirmation:

“All women get horny when they see me”

You can find the whole thread at:

http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/read?120655,8

But the reason I bring this up is because I believe that AFFIRMATIONS DO NOT WORK!!!!!

Period. End of story.

The days of Stuart Smiley looking into the mirror chanting “I’m good enough, I’m smart enough, and dog gonnit, people like me!” are over. In fact, I’d argue they were never really here to begin with.

Affirmations are for insecure people who desperately want any way to validate themselves, to the point where they will start trying to brainwash themselves into believing their insecurities do not exist. This is bullshit. There is no way to get past such insecurities unless you face them honestly and work to find their root cause. Not until you do that will these insecurities go away.

How do I know this? Because I’ve been there. I’ve done the affirmations, and I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt THEY DO NOT WORK.

I can remember back when I was a full fledged member of the Speed-Seduction cult when I was in college, I went ahead and bought the “Unstoppable Confidence” tapes, mainly due to the recommendation of Bishop (who ended up being a con man, go figure). I’d listen to those suckers every day. In the morning when I got up, on my walks to class, and even at night as I was falling asleep. I’d do the visualizations exactly as I was told.

Did it work? Well, no, not really. It didn’t make me feel any different. I was still insecure and scared, and no more confident than I was before. But I so WANTED them to work, that I convinced myself that they WERE working. So I’d go out and act all confident and full of power with my 50-foot tall self ready to crush anything that steped inside my circle of power that was created with my imaginary Green Lantern ring.

The thing is, it was all an illusion. Its okay to “fake it before you make it” in certain respects. But not when it comes to confidence. The thing about confidence is that no matter how well you fake it, something will happen to SHATTER that illusion for you, and it will affect all your actions because of that.

For instance, when I was doing the “Unstoppable Confidence” tapes in college, I’d start walking up to girls and sarging them, running the IC pattern, Blow-Job, Discovery Channel, etc. Most of the time it would go well, but occasionally I’d get a girl who’d say “Why are you talking to me?” “Who are you?” “Go away!” or some combination of the three. At that point, my “confidence” would be SHATTERED. I’d feel like a tool, a fake, a phoney. It ended up hurting me more than helping me BECAUSE I tried to cover up the real problem instead of facing it.

So to the guys out there wanting to do affirmations, I say DON’T DO IT! They may be a short-term fix for some, but long term they do not work! I would recommend that you take an honest look at yourself and try to determine what it is that makes you feel unconfidant, sad, unhappy, scared, whatever. Take a good hard look and figure out what’s causing it, and then FACE THAT. Do not hide from it.

The goal of all Pick-Up Artists or Seducers should be to become a single, congruent entity, and you cannot do that if you’re sweeping your problems under the rug. You gotta face them. Period.

/end rant

Thundercat

Deconstructing Swinggcat, Vol. 1

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/20/03

Okay, its no big secret me and Swinggcat know each other. In fact, we’re pretty good friends. So good, that he has granted me permission to repost his newsletter on my blog. Of course, I never thought I’d see the day when he got off his lazy ass to actually WRITE the newsletter, but just as another sign of the coming apocalypse, it has finally arrived.

From time to time, I’ll post some of his newsletters on here that I think are worthy of further discussion and pick them apart for you with my experiences and ideas interspersed for your reading pleasure. I think Swingg is one of the best in the game and there is a lot to learn from him, and if he’s going to be doing newsletters regularly, they are worth signing up for — so be sure to log in on his webpage to subscribe! Also, if you buy his book because of me for some reason, let him know so he can pay me a commission. It’s not free to run a site like this, you know.

Anyway, without further ado, here is the first Swinggcat newsletter ever — “Building Attraction Through Tension Loops.”

Building Attraction Through Tension Loops
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One of my maxims for ATRACTING women is to make them
ABC…to make them ALWAYS BE CHASING me.

In my book I call this PRIZING.

PRIZING women is important because when you do
things to make women chase you they will begin to
see you as a PRIZE they want to win over.

Prizing is a very important concept to understand in PU. I like to refer to it as “taking the power position” because you are putting yourself above others. One good way I like to do this is to ABJ — Always Be Judging — others. I got this nifty little trick from RoadKing, who uses it to great effect on strippers. Though Swinggcat has more systems for prizing laid out in his book.

One technique for PRIZING I talk about in my book
is Open Loop.

An Open Loop is an unfinished thought or story. So,
within the context of ATTRACTING women, some
examples of open loops are:

When a man tells a woman a really juicy story and
just at the point that she really starts to get into
the story, he intentionally withholds the conclusion
from her.

Or…

When a man acts as if he knows something about a
woman but when she asks him what it is he refuses to
tell her.

Are you guys starting to get why open loops are so
powerful?

Open loops are the shit. Lots of guys HATE open loops because they tend to frustrate them. But what they don’t realize is that open loops are MEANT to frustrate. That’s why they are effective. Though Swingg likes to describe open loops in terms of what the guy can do to the girl, I like to describe them in terms of what the girl can do to the guy, because girls do this shit better than any guy ever could. For instance, when a girl tells you “Maybe we can get together sometime,” that’s an example of an open loop. You’re gonna be calling her to get together, but she could do any number of things to keep you dangling, and in the meantime, you just try harder and harder to get together with her, until you’ve fully committed yourself to getting this chick, to the point where you think you’ve fallen for her.

Though what Swingg is describing here gets even more evil than that, as you’ll see below…

They are powerful because they leave women wanting and
reaching for more.

And when women are wanting and reaching for more, they
are CHASING us.

Its true. It works both ways.

I have noticed a few of the guys who have recently
purchased my book have spawned quite a few online
discussions on open loops.

Yes, that would be the SS list. I think its funny how some guys on that list bought Swingg’s book, and started posting field reports using his material and terminology like they just discovered it miracuously on their own in their vain attempts to reach guru-hood. Lame. I will say, however, that some of the best threads on the SS list in the past 4 YEARS sprung from discussingf Swinggcat material, so I can’t be too angry about it, I suppose.

This is great because it tells me that guys are really
getting out there and using the ideas in my book.

Recently I have been thinking a lot about the
psychological mechanism behind open loops: What is it
about ‘open loops’ that cause women to want and reach
for more?

This is where the evil part comes in. Are you ready for it?

And about a month ago it dawned on me while watching
TV. I was watching a television show that I did not
find terribly interesting, and out of nowhere the power
went out. The weird thing was that inside I felt this
emotional “want” to find out the conclusion to a TV show
I did not even find interesting. However, the more I thought
about this the more I realized that I did not really want
to find out what happened, but wanted closure and
resolution.

Even though the show was not very good, it had created
some unresolved emotional tension in me. The power going
out made me aware of my need to release, resolve, and
bring closure to this tension.

So, what I have discovered is that the psychological
mechanism behind open loops is in creating unresolved
emotional tension.

EEEEEEEEEEEEVIL!!!!!!

What I have realized is that besides using open loops,
there are literally hundreds of ways of creating, and
increasing unresolved emotional tension.

Doing this is what I call a “Tension Loop”. The structure
of a Tension Loop is to first do something that creates
unresolved emotional tension.

For example, you could do this by using an open loop: an
unfinished story or thought.

Or you could do this by creating a barrier between you and
a woman. If you have chemistry with a woman you might want
to hint that there is already a woman in your life,
planting the seed in her mind that even though you and her
like each other, it probably will not work out between the
both of you because you are already taken.

Or you could feign being really offended by something a
woman does or says. If she asks you, “What do you do for a
living?” you could hasten back with, “I am not the guy who
used to work with you at Mc. Donald’s, and if we ever hang
out, there is to be no talk about your career path at
McDonalds…I wouldn’t want you to embarrass me in front of
my friends.”

I’ve seen Swinggcat do this. Its fucking hilarious. The poor girl looks like a deer in headlights.

Or you could do something to invalidate a woman, such as,
acting unimpressed with her or even hinting at not liking her.

Now once you have created this tension loop inside a woman,
you can keep going with it: you can build it larger and more
intense.

This is where it gets REALLY evil. We’re talking Darth Vader evil here.

For example, if you create a tension loop by acting offended
by something a woman says or does, you can make that tension
loop larger and more intense by continuing to act offended.

But at a certain point, you need to close the tension
loop–bring some resolution, release, or closure to it.

I have found that people who are effective at using tension
loops–for example, auspicious writers and marketers–all
follow a similar structure:

1) They do or say something to create the tension loop

2) They keep going with what they said or did, making
the “tension loop” larger

3) They do something to close the tension loop; bring
some release or resolution to it

4) They open it back up, but just a little bit.

Also, have you ever noticed that this is the structure of many
great movies? Think about it: many great movies start off with
a tension loop by introducing some kind of conflict or drama.
Then, the tension loop increases up until the point of the
climax. Then the tension loop is closed by bringing some
resolution to the conflict or drama. And, finally, the movie
ends by either the tension loop being opened back up or a new
tension loop opening up.This makes the movie watcher want to
see the sequel.

Lets now look at an example of sparking a tension loop,
building it, closing it, and then opening up a new tension
loop–but just a little bit.

A few days ago, after exchanging some light banter with a
woman, I said to her, “You know…I don’t like you…”

She gave me a flabbergasted look and panted, “what!” (Being
the attractive woman that she is, she had probably never
had anyone say this to her before).

I had sparked a tension loop in her.

Next I made the tension loop bigger by saying, ” I’m sorry,
that probably came off wrong. Let me be more specific: I
really don’t like you.”

Here I was making the tension loop larger: intensifying all of
that unresolved emotional tension inside her. Now although
this is very powerful, you do not want to create so much
tension that she snaps–you do not want to PUSH her away
completely. So the idea is to take her to the edge–or close to
it. It is similar to kids blowing bubbles. They want to blow
as much air into the bubble to ensure that it is as big as
possible, but if they blow too much air into the bubble it
will pop. This takes practice, and you really have to learn to
observe how much emotional tension she is experiencing at any
given moment.

Then I said to her, “And the reason I don’t like you is that
you remind me of this girl Miranda whom I hated in the
second grade. I hated her because she used to always beat me
at hot hands (BTW, “hot hands” is a game that children play).

Then I challenged her to a game of hot hands, defeated her
quickly, and gloated, “Yes…I am the winner, and, actually, I
like you now…since you really stink at hot hands”.

So here I closed the tension loop by bringing resolution and
release to her emotional tension. And then I opened a new
loop–just a little bit–by telling her that she stinks at hot
hands.

lol. I remember when Swingg did this. He called me and woke me up to tell me what had happened when he was first testing this shit out. He was so jazzed at the responses he was getting. I gotta tell you, there’s nothing better than hearing a master seducer at the top of his game getting excited about testing new theories and tactics in the field. This is one of the reasons I think Swinggcat is so much better than a lot of the other guys out there. He’s actually improving, creating, and testing shit EXTENSIVELY before sharing it. I know for a fact that at the rate he’s going, Swinggcat method will not be the same thing in 6 months that it is right now.

There is a lot of psychology going on here. And in this
newsletter I am only scratching the surface of what I am doing.
I am going to do another newsletter soon, where I will go a lot
deeper into the psychological mechanisms of tension loops.

He’s run a few of his newsletters by me already, and I gotta tell you, they are NUCLEAR in the truest sense of the word. I’m almost finding them more helpful than his book, but I don’t think I’d be able to understand them without having read that first. But I know that everytime Swinggcat comes up with a new newsletter, he’s probably losing money on another book he could be writing.

But if you are really interested in mastering the techniques
for triggering these underlying psychological mechanisms in
women check out my eBook.

I am a guy who has been doing this stuff since I was a teenager.
And in the last four years I have gotten really serious about
mastering the psychological mechanisms that trigger attraction
in women. I am not some guy who used to be good with
women who now only talks and writes about how to attract women
from behind a computer screen. Instead, I am regularly out
interacting with women, which allows me to experiment, hone, and
further develop my attracting women skills. What I teach is not
just bunch of feel-good theory, but applicable stuff that can be
used in the real world. My material really is the Mu-Tai
kickboxing of dating guides. I really believe that this is the
most cutting edge stuff out there.

I have been getting tons of emails from guys telling me things
like, “Before getting your book I tried everything out there,
but had no success. But your stuff helped me finally get it. In
your easy-to-understand way of explaining things you have given
me a set of powerful tools along with a simple structure for
using them”.

There have even been a number of women, one of whom is a Los
Angeles stripper, who have been telling me things like, “Most
male dating experts are dead wrong when it comes to
understanding women. But, wow, even though I hate to admit
this, you have really hit the nail on the head when it comes
to knowing what works with women.”

This is a stripper RoadKing introduced me to that I’ve been gaming. I brought her along with me to Las Vegas and that’s where Swinggcat met her. Its funny, because he told her what he did and about his book, and since then she’s been calling him up and lurking on his website. This girl is funny, because she wants to write a book about how women can pick-up guys. Little does she know how fucking stupid that is. She was telling me how important it is for the girl to hang up the phone first because that gives them a psychological edge. I couldn’t help but laugh at her. Everything she’s “discovered” is shit that was discussed on ASF years ago and has moved on, which is probably why she’s so fascinated with Swinggcat’s book. I hope she doesn’t buy it, she might be able to deflect the game I’m running on her if she knows what I’m doing.

So, if you are ready to start the new year with a new take on
attracting women, come check out my EASY-TO-UNDERSTAND eBook
which is chock full of powerful insights, ideas, and tools,
here:

http://clicks.aweber.com/z/ct/?J85sEt6LY9pzJy8mHxVTGw

Best,

Swinggcat

P.S., Here is one last little secret of mine for the New Year:
If you feel like you are in a rut with women go out and get
some new threads. Better yet, try a whole new look: Go out and
get some clothes you normally would never wear. This is what I
do when I am in a rut and it works wonders. In fact, if you
have put on a few extra pounds this holiday season and are not
in the mood to cut down on your caloric intake, but still want
to look great, you are in luck. I have a friend, Joseph, who
just released a book called “Fashion For Fat Guys”. Not only is
Joseph an expert when it comes to fashion, but he also knows a
thing or two about attracting women. You can visit him here:

http://clicks.aweber.com/z/ct/?xRkVuThCUgInu3FhduxKIg

In case you didn’t notice, Fashion For Fat Guys is linked on this page as well. I think its a great resource for overweight men to dress better. I know I use the tactics outlined in that book when I go out, and it helps up my confidence levels so I’m more effective than I would be otherwise. Some might say its common sense stuff, but I think for a lot of guys it will help point out shit that they should be doing or don’t know they should do. I’ll probably discuss this more when I write my next article for Cliff’s List. I’m also thinking about talking about inner game soon, and I know that something like FFFG has a role to play in that as well.

P.P.S., If you have a success story you would like to share,
or a question you would like to ask, or a comment you would
like to make, please email me at

swinggcat@realworldseduction.com

Don’t just hit reply to this email. Thanks!

Okay, well there you have it. Hopefully you read this newsletter 50 times, bought both ebooks reccommended in it, and learn this shit backwards and forwards. I’ll probably be experimenting with tension loops soon (I did a bit of that in my airport pick-up) so I’ll report here on how it goes.

Ho!

Thundercat

Cocky/Funny and Good Looking Guys?

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/19/03

There was an excellent post on the PLAY list asking a question which is a very good one. Basically, the guy who posted said that he’s a good looking guy, but that he seems to hurt his pick-ups with being too cocky and not funny enough. He then goes on to ask the question: What is the proper way to use cocky/funny?

For those of you who might not know, cocky/funny is the primary theory behind David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating material. His theory is that by projecting a cocky attitude while being funny, you can up your success with attracting women. I know Mystery likes to say he disagrees with this in a slight way, because he thinks it should be more cocky/playful than cocky/funny. However, I tend to disagree with both. I believe that ALL COCKY can be much more powerful.

Why is that? Well, to me, being cocky does so many things initially that will help you in your seduction. The first thing is that cockiness is a way of prizing yourself. You put other people in a position where they are inferior to you when you are being cocky, which naturally leads to them qualifying themselves. Cockiness also sets a powerful frame, which is always the most important thing in a sarge. When you control the frame, its your reality that the girl is sucked into, and she becomes beholdant to it. Thirdly, you are also putting yourself in a power position where you can judge others. I think that judging others is probably the most powerful thing you can do, because it makes them qualify themselves and puts you in power.

But if what this guy is saying is true, he’s already being all cocky and its not working for him. Supposedly, this guy looks like a male model, so he can’t understand what’s wrong. The thing about looks is — I have seen good looking guys who are bad with women because they are socially inept. So looks may be important, but usually not as much as most people think.

The trick with being cocky is to not do it in a malicious way. If you come off TOO STRONG with being cocky, you are going to drive people away from you. Cockiness is meant to be a way of challenging people and lure them into qualifying themselves to you. It comes down to ABJ — Always Be Judging. If you’re self-assured, smart, and judgmental, you can very sneakily get people to fall into your qualification trap (after all, attraction is nothing but an intense need for qualification). However, if you make it so that these people can NEVER get the validation they seek, they will dismiss you as an ass hole and move on. That’s where the “funny” or “playful” part comes in, but you don’t necessarily need to do either to qualify the other person. There are different ways to do that, but both work.

So looks have nothing to do with whether or not cocky/funny works. Rather, its the way in which you present the frame that determines whether it works. You have to be inviting and detached, not closed off and sarcastic. For instance, if you were to say to a girl:

“I don’t like you. You’re annoying. Go away.”

What would happen? Well, it depends on how you say it. If you say it seriously and forcefully, it will come across like you REALLY don’t like her, you REALLY think she’s annoying, and you REALLY want her to go away. By the same token, if you tell her the exact same line, but do so with a smirk and a subtle wink in a way where she can’t tell if you’re being serious or not, she’s not going to know if you mean what you say or are playing with her. So she’ll be more likely to stick around and try to find out, and then BOOM! You got her.

If you watch a natural or a regular ass-hole work, you’ll often see this. They don’t really care if they get the girl or not, so they can be cocky, but are congruent with the way they present themselves and usually succeed in sucking people into their frame.

So, long answer short: Cocky/Funny will always work, no matter how you look. You just need to do it right.

If the guy who posted that reads this, you gotta work on your presentation and delivery. That’s the bare bones of the matter and where I think your problem may lie.

If you happen to be a good looking guy, the best PUA to study in my opinion would be Sickboy. He actually IS a male model, but his game is very effective because he has no ego about himself. But he does have an understanding of attraction and qualification. You might want to try searching for him on mASF or hunt down his Interview Transcript in the PLAY archives. Its definitely worth a read.

Sarge on,

Thundercat

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