The Power of the Dark Side — mASF and Shredded Souls
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Analysis
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/18/03
I found a post on mASF entitled “The aftermath of mASF and her shredded soul.” The post was just the right amount of melodrama to capture my interest, so I decided to check it out. It was put up by a guy called Acolyte and goes as follows:
Topic:
The aftermath of mASF and her shredded soul. (1 of 17), Read 562 times
Conf: >> General
From: arby_acolyte ratty1@webmail.co.za
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 03:19 AMI hurt a girl today. Her heart is shattered into a million pieces.
Because of me. Entirely. And I have no excuse.
Does this feel good? No.
The stuff on this site is powerful. Very little is mentioned here on the emotional effect we’re having on our targets – sure, we’re creating and amping attraction etc…. ..but no thought is given to the resulting ATTACHMENT that our ‘targets’ begin to feel.
Guys, for the sake of your Karma (if you believe in that kinda thing), use this info wisely. Its not a toy.
I understand how/why she feels as she does and, if she doesn’t commit suicide, she’ll recover… ..and heed this: She’s NOT a psycho, just regular LSE.
Such is the power we have on mASF.
Acolyte.
PS. I’ve taken this girl under my wing and I intend to help her regain her feet. I intend to do what I can to raise her Self-Esteem. Please wish her luck.______________________________
peripheral vision is often overrated
Now, this post is interesting because I am very much conflicted as to how I feel about it. On one side, I empathise with the guy. On the other hand, I can see where all the posters who are responding to him are coming from.
The thing that is easy to forget on the internet is that these girls are real people. When you read about them in cold words on your computer screen and imagine the generic woman in your head, its easy to be neutral in your assessment of where this guy went wrong and why he shouldn’t be feeling the way he does. The thing is, this girl is very real for this Acolyte guy. She’s probably someone he slept with, someone he shared something with, and someone he probably connected with on some level. And he ended up breaking her heart. Its funny, because the subculture we exist in with the studying of PUA is not very conducive to looking at women as real people, rather, they become objects of our desires and conquests. An example of this is Ellyn, who I mentioned in the post earlier. I shared a part of my life with that chick, and even though I do talk shit about her, when I was on the phone, the last thing I wanted to do was hurt her feelings, because I could HEAR the genuine emotion in her voice that she was happy to hear from me.
I think that’s the crux of the issue there. Emotion is the stongest frame there is, and it overrides all logic. That’s one of the reasons chicks are so powerful. They run on emotion, they are able to manifest it faster and more powerfully than most men can think of, and when they do, us men are swept right along into their frame (well, unless you’re jlaix, but he’s in a league all his own =)
I personally do not think its AFC for him to feel bad that this girl got hurt. But the posters in the thread are right, even if they are a bit crass in their advice. This is a natural chick response to recapture the relationship frame, by guilting the guy into helping her overcome her emotion. If this Acolyte dude persists in trying to help her get over him, she’s gonna suck him back into her reality, and eventually hurt him the way she was hurt just to salvage some of her self-esteem. I don’t think she’d do it consciously or maliciously, but I do think its very likely to go down that way. So he’s damned if he does, and damned if he doesn’t, as far as this girl is concerned.
Which brings us to an interesting moral quandary: How do you act with girls, enjoy tehir company, and protect yourself all at the same time? Do you allow yourself to become attacted and run the risk of being manipulated? Or do you keep yourself detached and never really enjoy a substancial relationship?
I prefer to look at pick-up in very Machiavellian terms. If none of you have ever read Machiavelli, I suggest picking up his book “The Prince.” Its quite a brilliant book on politics, leadership, and persuasion. (I happen to believe Machiavelli has been reincarnated as Swinggcat, but that’s another post all together =) Anyhow, the thing about Machiavelli is that he is completely amoral. His advice is designed to get you results, not make judgements about right or wrong. Whether you use the information for good or evil, that is up to the individual.
In terms of PUA, I rate my success on my happiness at the time. If I’m doing shit with a girl and I’m happy, then I’m successful. If I’m involved with a girl and I’m miserable and paranoid and insecure, I am definitely not doing something right. So I think the trick is to create a reality that is so strong that your happiness exists regardless of who you’re with, and you allow the girls you date to take part in that happiness. I base this on Zan’s philosophy. Here’s a guy who’s 9 girlfriends and ex-wife just threw him a lingerie party for his 40th birthday, and they all know each other and do not get catty or jealous. How is this possible? Simple. He never destroys that sense of beauty that is around him. That sense of happiness, that frame that he creates that sucks people in. Its always there, and it diffuses any negativity that exists around him.
The bhuddist believe that to attain enlightenment, you must kill all desire. I think to get good at PUA, and I’m talking master level here, you really do have to kill all desire when it comes to women. But at the same time, you still have to CARE for the women, otherwise you end up hurting them. I guess I’m saying you have to be desire-less but care-full (pun intended).
Its a fine line for sure, and I’m not quite sure how to attain it yet. But its something for me to think about. I hope this rant made some sort of sense. If anyone has any thoughts on this or how to go about doing this, I’d love to hear them.
Thundercat
Not Into Games? Bullshit.
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Analysis
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/17/03
Someone on the PLAY list just asked a question that really caught my attention, because it is such a typical girl thing to talk about. Basically, it was the idea of “girls” and their hatred of “games.” Like when a girl says she’s “not into games.” Now, when a girl says this, the question on every guy’s mind is: What is she saying?
Some guys will take it at face value and try to appease her by not playing any “games” with her, adjusting their approach to suit the information she gives them. Other guys may look at this like a shit test and barrel through with lots of games and frustrate the girl into “next”-ing them.
So what’s the right tactic to use in this case? Is she lying? Telling the truth? What’s going on here?
The answer is this: Women are not into the IDEA of games, but don’t believe a word they say. They are ALL into games.
Basically, no one likes the bullshit that goes on in the manipulation that occurs between men and women, and make no mistake about it, there is manipulation going on in every relationship — especially one that involves sex.
You basically have two different factors at battle constantly in these situations — the sexual and the relationship. Women control the sexual power and men control the relationship power. Women do not like it when men are able to get them to give up their sexual power and then not return the relationship power. Men, on the other hand, do not like it when they give
up their relationship power and the women do not reciprocate with the sexual power.
That is what they mean when they say “Not into games.” That means they want to get what they want from the man. The only thing is, as soon as the man gives them what they want, chances are good they will lose interest. So when the girls go for a guy who knows this, they get upset because he’s “playing games.” Never do they realize that that’s the thing that
probably attracted her in the first place.
So rule #1: Never listen to what a girl tells you she wants. Notice what she responds to. The things they say and the things they respond to are two COMPLETELY different things.
However, I do not look at this as a shit test. I look at it as a sexual barrier (something Swinggcat will be talking about in future newsletters of his). Sexual barriers are obstacles women put up to keep you from doing what they KNOW is effective on them. Its a safeguard of sorts that when broken down, will get you EXACTLY what you want.
The funny thing about these barriers are that when they are presented to you, there are two ways around them. One is to bang your head against the barrier until it breaks, and the other is to skirt behind the barrier and enter in through the back door.
So when a barrier is presented to me, I look at it like the girl is telling me EXACTLY what I need to do to get her. If she says she’s not into games, what she’s really telling me is that games are what has been effective on her in the past. Therefore, that is what you have to do if you want to get her.
Confused yet?
Thundercat
Fuck Challenges
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Analysis
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/17/03
Okay, so my little tirade on “drama” lead to a discussion about how Men need challenges like Women need drama. Personally, I found this notion quite stupid. It sounds like something only someone with no understanding of actual people would say. Obviously, I’m not much of an authority either, but in my personal experiences, men don’t need challenge to be happy like women need drama to be happy. To men, challenge is a sporting event. Its a puzzle, its a game, its a distraction. To women, drama is an ingrained part of life (obviously, I speak in generalizations. Not ALL women crave drama 24/7. But they do crave differing amounts).
So my reply to such a statement was thus:
Men don’t crave challenges. They crave pussy. It just
so happens getting pussy is usually a challenge. In
fact, its TOO much of a challenge for most men.
That’s why we’re here.So fuck challenges. I want results.
Thundercat
Now, of course, my unique style of “in your face” reality didn’t sit well with a few of the armchair seducers out there. I get lame reframes in reply saying shit like “Oh you just wanna get your dick wet” and “your lack of honest introspection doesn’t help anyone” and other lame crap. In fact, I had someone suggest that I carry around a rubber latex “pussy in a bottle.” Ah, the SS List! You have to love the advice!
Anyway, I hold fast to my point — fuck challenges. Now, its true, it may sound like a bitter decry from someone who likes to whine and complain about the difficulty of getting laid. But allow me to clarify. I do not like challenges when it comes to getting NECESSITIES of life. Challenges getting food, shelter, and water are not fun, nor are they conducive to a healthy lifestyle. Same thing with sex. I look at sex much like other vital functions such as breathing, urinating, and taking a shit. It is a necessary human action. Men need to ejaculate. It is a NECESSITY to do so. Failure to do so can lead to disease and other medical problems. In fact, when men do not ejaculate, the body finds a way to do so on its own, through the use of “wet dreams” and such.
So to me, challenges when it comes to sex are bullshit. The only thing that matters is results.
However, that said, challenges are good when it comes to things like RELATIONSHIPS. Challenge in relationships keep things fresh. Challenge in the workplace or with a video game or whatever can be good to. But those things are LUXURIES. They are ENTERTAINMENT. They are based on your own personal AMBITION. They are NOT based on necessity.
The fact of the matter is that there are so many guys out there NOT getting laid, that to tell them they need more challenge is like taking a hammer to their balls. Its a fucking ridiculous statement to make, and one that flies in the face of everything we’re studying.
In fact, the very notion of a challenge is counterproductive to seduction. A challenge is a frame where you are put in a situation where you must work for something that is “prized” to you, to use Swinggcat terminology. You add value to something that challenges you. So when you’re going after pussy, and its a challenge, that pussy’s value is raised in your eyes, and that’s where the problem lies. This value is reflected in a guy’s nervousness around women. In the stutters when he talks to chicks. In the sweaty palms when he sits next to a pretty girl. Challenge is what creates this state.
The best guys in terms of seduction are guys who do not care about the outcome. They could give two shits if they get laid or not. So when they do get laid, it seems easy because that was not their goal. In these cases, there is an absence of challenge. It does not exist for these men. Yet they still have as much fun and enjoy the same success as a guy who tackles a challenge and works his butt off for it. Now, which would you rather have?
Personally, I’m a lazy bastard. I prefer the absence of challenge short of the occasional game of Warcraft 3. And I definitely prefer its absence when it comes to poon.
That’s why they call me…
Thundercat
Drama and the Women Who Love It
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Analysis
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/17/03
Okay, so a conversation I had dealing with open loops opened up into a conversation about women’s need for drama. In part, this is because I feel open loops create a tension that most women crave, because they are emotional crackheads. They feed off emotion, and the strongest forms of emotion are the bad ones. So Budec from the SS list asked me to expound further on this thought. So I’m reposting this here for your viewing pleasure:
Well, you have to understand that to most women, being on a hellish emotional rollercoaster is equivalent to being content and happy.
The thing is, us men are logical creatures. We naturally think “Well, we have no drama in our lives, so this is good. I can sit down, watch a football game, and be content. There are no problems to deal with.” That is our logic talking, because as men, if we see a problem, be it a practical or emotional one, we naturally — LOGICALLY — look to fix it.
Women, on the other hand, are emotional. The absence of drama means the absence of emotion. Without it, they get bored and are NOT content. So when they have no drama in their lives they seek to create it. In their minds, they think “Well, I have drama in my life, so this is good. I can call up my best friend and we have something to talk about for two hours. And then, I can call up my boyfriend and because of the information I got from my best friend, we have something to argue about for four hours. Then I can call all my other friends and talk about what I argued about for the next three days…”
The thing about emotions is that they are a high. Be they good emotions or troublesome ones, they can be addictive. This is why make-up sex is often so revered, because it is the ultimate emotional release after the culmination of a very charged rollercoaster of feelings.
Women often NEED this type of thing to feel happy, to stay interested, etc. A lot of guys I know who are in happy long term relationships often create drama for the women they are with. It works out for both parties because the women get the emotions they crave and stay interested but the men, at the same time, are in control of the situation because they are aware of what they are doing.
When you boil all this seduction and pick-up stuff down to its core, all you are really left with is the manipulation of emotion. That’s all this is. Once you are conscious of this, women become less of a mystery, because you realize that by charging these emotions, giving them the highs they desire (and then taking those highs away), gives you the power and makes you the one they pursue.
If you look at what women do to men to get US so turned-around, its all a series of emotional highs and lows that they instinctively do, and it sucks us in just as it sucks in other women. The only difference is that we as men do not know how to handle this tactic because we are so logical. To us, once a solution is offered, the problems should be fixed. But to women, the solution isn’t fixing the problem, rather, its creating a new problem that nullifies the old one.
Often times, when I’m talking to a woman or a female friend, they’ll start rambling on and on about stupid problems and drama that occur in their daily lives. Things about how men are ass holes, or what this girl said about her behind her back, etc. I’ve learned that when I would talk to them about these things from an emotional standpoint, like saying shit such as “Oh man, how does that make you feel?” as opposed to offering a solution to their problems, they respond so much better. In fact, if you want to get really evil, you can even create more drama by antagonizing them about their stances on these dramatic issues in their lives and get them all riled up.
Either way, my point is that emotion is the building block of attraction, and the negative emotions are much more powerful and attention grabbing *initially* than the positive emotions. When you use these in tandem, the positive emotions are much more powerful and noticeable. This is what girls crave. This is why they want drama. And this is how expert seducers play the game.
Well, at least that’s how I play it.
Thundercat
The SS List — Beating a Dead Horse
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Analysis
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/17/03
For years, the Speed-Seduction list has been in operation. For a while, it was awesome. There was a real influx of talented seducers there coming up with “nuclear” stuff to use on chicks. Things like “The Warmth Builder,” “Riker’s 3 Rules,” and the amazing “takeaway” abounded. But then the star student turned out to be a con man and one of Ross’s fallen angels went off and started up the competition. Not only that, but fastseduction.com and mASF opened things up for more than just Ross’s products. Since that time, the SS list has endured, but it is a shadow of what it used to be.
Like Freddy screaming at Jason, whenever I open my e-mail to find posts from the SS list in there, I can’t help but yell at the screen “WHY WON’T YOU DIE???!!!!” And then proceed to delete 99.9% of the posts, occasionally reading one that catches my eye until I realize why it is that I bother to delete most of these posts, and then proceed to kill that one as well.
The thing is, even though the SS list isn’t what it used to be, SS isn’t what it used to be either. Gone are the days where you could memorize 40 patterns and steamroll a girl into a subnamuble trance and start fondling her right away. The new SS has degenerated into tailoring shit to the girl you are seducing, which cuts your success rate down to 30% at the least. Because of this, most of the guys who have progressed in their game have opted to leave SS behind for greener pastures. What does this mean?
Simple. There are no “good” seducers on the SS list anymore. It truly is the blind leading the blind, with newbies who haven’t even finished listening to the BHSC giving advice to other newbies, therefore insuring nobody really knows what they are doing. The fact that some of the best threads on there are discussing shit that was brought up in Swinggcat’s book doesn’t help matters.
What I’m wondering is — will it get any better? Will Ross lock himself away in a closet for 6 months and re-emerge with a new form a Speed Seduction — one that actually WORKS and is a viable alternative to DYD, MM, and any of the other 6 billion forms of PUA that have sprung up since the good ol’ days? Will SMART people actually join the SS list and start posting good shit again? Or should this list be killed or die quietly? Honestly, I haven’t seen ANYTHING good come from that list since the days Bishop was posting, and he made up all his shit. Kind of says something doesn’t it?
I think my biggest problem with the SS list comes from the fact that there are actually guys out there who are genuinely in need of help and wanting to learn, and they look at all the crap that’s passing for advice on this list because they don’t know any better, and it only ends up making their situation worse because they follow the poor advice that is given. In fact, most recently, the only person on there I’ve seen give somewhat good advice is Tom Vizzini (when he’s not hocking 3D Mind or any of that other crap, that is).
I hope Ross wakes up to the fact that his list is slowly degenerating into what Apple became in the 80s and early 90s, which is a steaming pile of crap, a shell of what it once was. I hope he starts putting some quality control on his list and his products, and starts dealing with the REALITY of seduction instead of the idealized NLP version of it. I hope he actually steps up to the plate and starts teaching guys what they need to know instead of fairy tales. But then again, that may be too much work.
In the meantime, I’ll just keep deleting my SS posts.
Thundercat
The Top 10 Pick-Up Artists Of 2003
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Analysis, Top 10 Lists
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03
Okay, so the debate has been raging for a while now over who is the best PUA (Pick-Up Artist) out there. Obviously, a lot of egos are involved in this statement, and everyone has their own opinions about who the best really is. In fact, its so subjective, that I don’t really think there will ever be a clear and honest answer on the subject. Its like asking who the best warrior or soldier is in a war. But the fact of the matter remains, no one can ever ALWAYS be the best. They’re always going to have their off days — be a little bit slow, a little bit late, a little bit unprepared or caught off guard. But that doesn’t stop some people from categorizing the people in our little community as “The Best.” So I’ve decided to throw my hat in the ring and rate the top 10 PUAs operating out there.
However, only the people I have met personally are eligible for my list. There could very well be many great PUAs out there that beat these guys out, but I have not met them and cannot verify their skills personally, so they are off my list for now, though I will mention a few afterwards who I think are worthy of it. Also, my rankings are not based on sheer skill alone, rather, they are based on consistency, and what I have seen as far as how often they are practicing what they preach. So keep that in mind as we go through this.
Thundercat’s Top 10 Pick-Up Artist
1. Style: Style is definitely, hands down, bar none, the best operating in the game today. This guy is probably the most evil, sneaky, manipulative bastard I have ever seen in operation. The thing is, this guy comes in totally under the radar, and that is why he is so dangerous. His subtlety is so amazing, that before you know it, you are qualifying yourself to him and he has you right where he wants you. And the thing is, he does it with both girls AND guys. No one is safe. To give you an idea of how incredible Style is, he’s practically invented most of the techniques a lot of the top guys, like Mystery and Tyler Durden, are using and teaching. He is practically Machiavellian in nature, and is someone I both admire and fear. I should also point out that I have a special, non-gay, place in my heart for this man, because it was with his help that I broke down my barrier with approaching women, so I owe a lot of my current game and success to Style, which is another reason why I rate him #1.
2. Swinggcat: Swinggcat comes in at a close second, and would in fact probably be number one if it weren’t for the fact that that he is a better looking guy than Style. Swinggcat is a pretty hip looking (think a shorter version of Vince Vaughn in Swingers and you get a rough idea of what Swinggcat looks like), whereas Style is a skinny, bald, jewish guy. Swinggcat is just as evil, sneaky, and manipulative, but considering what Style has to overcome in the looks department, that puts his game above Swingg’s. That said, I have seen Swinggcat in action on numerous occasions and am amazed at a lot of his game. The way he is able to process and sum up the information girls give him and turn their frame around is truly a sight to see. Not only that, he is so intuative, he can make up cold readings on the fly and be almost 100% accurate, which is fuckin’ creepy. His book only scratches the surface of his vast knowledge, and I think we’ll be getting a lot of good (and evil) stuff from his upcoming newsletters.
3. Zan: Zan is not a name that is very well known in the community, but having met the guy and seen him in action, I am convinced he is one of the top dudes out there when it comes to picking up chicks. In fact, I’d have even placed him at number 1 if it wasn’t for the fact that this guy is a “natural” seducer, and therefore what he does cannot be taught to others. But in accordance with the sheer skill of his game, he lays all others flat on their back. The thing is, the guy looks like a male model. He’s 40 years old, but looks like he’s 20. He actually USED to be a model, in fact, back in France in the 80′s I think, and his girlfriend was Monica Bellucci of the Matrix fame (hey, don’t hate the player, hate the game =). Currently, the guy has between 6 and 9 hot ass girlfriends who ALL know about each other, and apparently he enjoys many 3-somes and fuck buddies to boot. Not only that, but Zan has one of the most amazing philosophies on life I have ever heard. He spends his time moving towards beauty and away from things that are not beautiful. I hung out with the guy for only 3 days, but I am secure enough in my masculinity to say that if I was a chick, I’d have been all over him. Probably the coolest guy in the community. He was on stage at the Chicago DYD seminar, and if David DeAngelo ever decides to sell the audio to that thing, you’ll get a real treat hearing Zan speak about inner game. Simply amazing.
4. Maddash: Maddash, like Zan, is also a successful, good looking, older guy. He’s a big proponant of the “No Game” game, which is pretty much emulating the behaviors of “naturals,” such as Zan, and because of that, Maddash’s game comes off as very subtle and natural. When I saw him in action I was very impressed. It seems like he gets a new girl every night. The thing about Maddash is that his life is not ruled by PUA, he is very much into business and athletics as well. Pick-up is just a small factor of his life, but one he strives to perfect — and boy, does he do a good job at it.
5. Craig: Craig probably deserves to be higher on the list, but unfortuneately, I think the four people above him beat him as far as technique goes. That said, Craig is VERY good. He is the king of the short-set method. This is basically where you approach a set of women, say something funny/amusing, then move onto the next set and repeat. Its a very good way of being social and works great in bar scenes. Its also good for creating social proof. Craig is also a very funny guy, and his dancing skills help attract attention from others (in a good way, mind you). The quality of women Craig gets is quite high. I have yet to see him with a girl I would rank lower than a 9 on the looks scale. Not only that, but he seems to get them pretty consistantly. However, the fact that he comes off as a good looking frat guy, the fact that he has appeared on Elimidate, and the fact that he lives on a beach, are all contributing factors to his success — but that does not take away from the fact that he is very skilled. He is also one of the few PUAs I’ve seen that can do all his shit effectively while drunk. He was also on stage at the Chicago DYD seminar, so you may hear stuff from him fairly soon.
6. Mystery: Okay, I know Mystery is gonna be pissed that I rank him so low (or not. He probably doesn’t give a shit what I think. Can ya blame him?), but in my opinion, for as good as Mystery is, the other 5 guys are better. The thing about Mystery is that he’s incredibly good at raising his value in other’s eyes. I’ve seen him pull off some amazing instances of social proof with his magic tricks, and he is incredibly entertaining, funny, and exciting. Its easy to get caught up in Mystery’s spell. That said, the reason I rate him #6 is because I do not feel his long game is very good. I always get the sense that Mystery has a hard time genuinely connecting with people, and this effects his long term relationships. It seems like he can be very insecure at times and needs constant validation from others, which leads to a lot of mind games that get him his validation, but at the same time succeeds in pushing people away from him. Whether or not this is intentional, I don’t know, but it happens. He also seems to care more about adjusting his game to suit the girl than making the girl adjust to his game, which I think ends up hurting his pick-up in the long run because it is not really congruent with who he is and how he presents himself long term. In fact, if you hang out with Mystery long enough, you get the sense that everything he talks to you about is a pattern, and he always ends up bringing the conversation back to his favorite topic, which is, of course, himself. And that is the reason I put him at #6.
7. Tyler Durden: Tyler is one of the big “up and comers” in the community. His posts made him a legend on ASF, and then once he teamed up with Papa and started doing workshops, his stock only rose. For a while, there was speculation as to whether or not TD was all talk, but he proved to everybody that he was legit in the Vegas Mystery Method workshop where he not only got laid, but got Style and Mystery laid as well. I have seen Tyler at work in the field, and he is impressive. He is a genuinely funny and engaging guy with lots of interesting stuff to talk about. His posts are some of the most interesting to read in the community as well, and he backs up his teachings with lots of field experience. However, like Mystery, I get the sense that TD has problems in his long game. When he picks chicks up, he does so from the frame where he makes the girls feel like “bad girls” or “sluts.” This works good for party girls and good girls alike, but on day two when the frame wears off, the girls associate that feeling with him and then flake, because feeling bad and slutty might be exciting for a night, but long term it is not a good feeling. TD also comes off as very gay. This is not a bad thing per say, but he has adopted the “hot chick” frame so congruently, that I think when girls sleep with him, its almost incongruent with who they thought he was. I could, of course, be totally wrong in this assessment since I haven’t hung out and sarged with Tyler as much as I’d like, but I’m going off of what I have noticed.
8. Primoman: Primoman is a dude that is no longer an active member of the community, but he is still a pick-up artist in every sense of the word. Primoman is known as the “King of the Ugs.” He is a dude who I’ve yet to see without a girl on his arm. Allbeit, that girl is usually ugly, or fat, or a combination of the two, but nonetheless, it is a girl. Primoman is not so much about quality as he is about QUANTITY. He probably lays more girls than any other guy in the community, but he is also not too picky with his prospects. Regardless, he gets laid a LOT! And that’s what it all comes down to in the end. His game is very Juggler in nature. In fact, he is quite AFC in his approach, but he is just so congruent with who he is and gently persistent in his sarge, that he eventually wins the girl over. Lately he’s been working his way up the “looks” scale as far as his girls go, so he may be giving Style a run for his money some day.
9. Sickboy: Sickboy is a protogee of Tyler and Papa. He’s a New Yorker and is best known for his appearance in the movie Zoolander as one of the male models in the movie. Yes, that’s right, the guy looks like a male model. But despite this, he is incredibly down to earth and has absolutely no ego about himself. He’s a very easy guy to talk to and a good friend. His game is also quite solid, though I do think it’s helped greatly by his looks. I think his frames aren’t as strong as they could be, but he definitely has the subtleties of PUA down pat. He recently spoke to the NYC lair and that’s a great read if you can find the transcripts somewhere. He’s a guy to look out for.
10. Harmless: Harmless is not what you would expect from a PUA. He’s pretty prolific on ASF, and seems to know his shit. The thing is, the guy comes off very much as his name describes him — Harmless. He’s a pretty average looking guy who seems very unassuming at first. But then you see the guy in action, and he’s very good. I think he comes across much like Mystery and TD, where he raises his value in the girl’s eyes by being entertaining and engaging. I know I enjoy talking to the guy, if that’s any indication. I haven’t seen enough of his game in action to critique it any further, but I do know he’s going to start teaching workshops soon, so his game’s gotta be pretty high. Regardless, he’s one to keep an eye on.
HONORABLE MENTIONS
There are a number of other people out there who probably deserve to be on this list, but like I said before, I have not had a chance to really see them in action. But here are a few who I think deserve a mention.
Bad Boy — Apparently this guy is amazing. I know TD gets a lot of his AMOG tactics from Bad Boy. He’s a croatian pick-up artist who was injured in the Bosnian war, which makes his game so much more incredible considering he was almost killed and still suffers the effects from that somewhat. Apparently the guy is very fearless and straight-forward agressive with women. In fact, some would descibe his game as all cocky and no funny, which is probably why its so effective. Not only that, but he is supposed to be incredibly congruent. I know he’s currently fucking Miss Croatia and using her as a pawn to pull other women for threesomes if that tells you anything about his game.
Toecutter – I don’t know the guy personally and all I have to go off of are his posts on ASF and Mystery’s Lounge, but this guy seems to have it going on. I know TD studdied his archive like the dead sea scrolls, and his posts convey a very congruent attitude. I’m interested in seeing him in action, and if I’m ever in Canada I’ll see if I can’t hook up with him.
MTLPUA — Don’t know much about him, but I hear he’s really good.
David X — I know Clifford had good things to say about him.
Chet – The Chetinator! I got to see him speak in Chicago. Supposedly he’s god-like with women, but I have yet to see him in action and can’t say for sure.
Adam – The “natural.” Look to see great things from this guy in the future!
Masterclass — The guy is currently juggling 4 girls right now. He’s also an incredibly sneaky speed seducer who is moving more into the cocky/funny stuff and having great success. Right now, I think his game could be up there with the best there is if he got past his fear of approaching.
Rick H. — The legend. I have not hung out with the guy yet, but I’m sure when I do, it’ll be veeeeeeery interesting. =)
Ross Jeffries — I’ve hung out with Ross on a few occasions now and have only sarged with him once. From what I saw, I liked, but have not done enough field work with him to accurately rate the guy. I know Papa speaks highly of him, and he’s been out in the field with him more than I have.
Papa – I go out with Papa all the time, so I’m a bit biased when it comes to his skill level. He teaches at all of TD and Mystery’s workshops as well, and his field reports are always worth a read. He’s also single-handedly bringing this community together, so he has to be respected for that at the very least. The reason I didn’t put him in the top 10 was because much of his material is from Style and Tyler. I think in order to be in the top 10, a PUA needs to be developing his own style. One thing I will say about Papa is that he is incredibly good with creating strong frames.
Alphamale – This guy is incredibly impressive. Most of his game is based on using pivots to pull girls for him. I haven’t hung out with the guy enough to get an idea of how good he is, but from what I have seen, his game is awesome.
Well, there ya go, my Top 10. Hopefully one day I’ll make my list, but I doubt it! I’m much too hard on myself, lol.
That’s why they call me…
Thundercat
Swingcat’s Open Loop Theory
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Analysis, Articles
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03
**Image removed
YEEEEEEAH! Damn, I’m buzzed. Just heard one of my favorite shows — Carnivale — got renewed by HBO for a second season. I swear, if I only had HBO on my TV and no other channel, I’d be happy. Their original programming is the best on TV! Carnivale, coupled with The Wire and the Sopranos are a few of the shows I set everything aside for to watch. I am really jazzed! You can find the announcement at the Hollywood Reporter by following this link:
Now, someone had to go on the SS list and start blasting my favorite fall season show by saying its too frustrating to watch. In fact, he said that it was an example of going too far with “open loops.” Now, what they’re doing discussing Swinggcat terminology on the SS board is beyond me, especially considering that Ross is a stickler for not talking about other people’s products (but since Swinggcat used to be his top student, I guess he’s making exceptions). Anyway, this discussion brought up an interesting point about open loops.
For those of you who don’t know what an Open Loop is, its a verbal form of creating insecurity, anticipation, and a need to qualify through the use of creating an open ended story. Yes, that’s a round-a-bout explanation, but its the best I can do from memory. Swinggcat has a whole chapter in his book about open loops that explains it better than I ever could. But an example of an open loop would be something like:
PUA: “You know, this place reminds me of when I was in a german sex show with my girlfriend.”
HB: “You were in a german sex show? What happened?”
PUA: “Well I was in Germany because I love McDonalds ice cream, and I made it a personal goal to try McDonalds ice cream in every country in the world. Don’t you just love ice cream?”
So what’s happening there? You set up the fact that you were doing something exotic and forbidden, but you fail to pay it off and start talking about something silly and stupid. But the whole time you’re doing that, the other person will be thinking “Yes, but what about the sex show!!!???” and if they ask you, you start talking about something else, never quite giving them what they want. That’s an open loop. Its an interesting hook that someone wants closure on, and you’re the only one who can give it to them, but you don’t. You make them work for it. Its a very sneaky, subtle, eeeeevil way to get people to qualify themselves to you. They’ll be saying shit like “Please tell me! Pleeeeeaaaaase!” And you can grin and say “I’m not sure you’ve earned it yet.” Hopefully you’re smart enough to know what that implies.
So anyway, on the SS list, there was a lot of talk about how open loops are ineffective because they are so frustrating. What many fail to understand is that open loops are MEANT to be frustrating, and that is why they feel that way. Open loops create insecurity and anticipation, two very important factors in attraction. If you get pissed off when someone uses open loops on you, it means its working.
But there is an argument that people who intuitively use open loops end up creating an atmosphere around them that ultimately drives people away instead of attracting them, and therefor open loops should not be used. I think the important word here is “intuitive.” People who do this stuff intuitively are destined to mess it up because they do not have a conscious awareness of how this shit works.
Open loops are a way of creating drama. They are meant to rope other people into your reality by giving them just enough to get interested, and then taking it away so they actively pursue you.
When you have a conscious awareness of how open loops work, you can use them to attract people to you. When you do not, you can over use them and cause people to become frustrated and angry because they realize the hopelessness in their pursuit. Women tend to overuse this tactic because they are emotional creatures and easily distracted by stimuli (this is a bit of an over-generalization here, but I’ve found it is fairly accurate for attractive women). It also goes towards creating drama and turmoil in their personal lives, something many women crave and create.
I think the use of open loops is a valuable tool in seduction. I’ve seen some extremely talented Pick-Up Artists us it to great effect. But I tend to agree that if overused, any of these skills become ineffective and even detrimental to your pick-up. That’s part of the trick to being good at this, is knowing WHEN and HOW to use these tactics.
For more information on open loops, you can either try and catch reruns of Carnivale, or buy Swinggcat’s book at Real World Seduction.
Ho!
Thundercat
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