The Power of Frames — How Do You Tell If A Girl Likes You?

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**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/24/03

So some poor soul on the San Diego PLAY list posted a problem to the group asking how you could tell when a girl likes you. Now, being part of the San Diego list, this guy has the advantage of getting advice from the likes of BadBoy and Craig, both of which are two top guys in this little community we have going on here. Craig’s advice to the fella, which I don’t think he would mind me sharing here, was simply:

“Kiss her and find out.”

Short, sweet, and to the point. Typical Craig.

Other than the fact that this is good advice, I think it’s important to keep in mind that it’s coming from Craig’s frame, which is quite different from most people’s. Craig is pretty congruent with who he is. He’s experienced enough where if he wants to know if a girl likes him, he’ll kiss her. However, he doesn’t take into account his calibration skills or how drunk he is at the time, both of which are probably important in kissing the girl to guage her interest.

The thing I find funny about this situation is the frame with which most other guys (AFCs in particular) would come at it. I do not think that it’s necessarilly important for guys to know where the girl is at in terms of “does she like me or not?” Rather, I think it’s important for guys to keep in mind where THEY’RE at when it comes to if she likes them or not.

Let me explain.

How different would you approach this situation if you already KNEW that this girl was into you? What if you just simply ASSUMED that she liked you and wanted to sleep with you and everything she was doing was trying to get you into the sack? How would you act? What would you say? What frame would you adopt?

I think this is a vital thing to keep in mind when it comes to seducing a girl. Having the frame of “I know this girl wants me” as opposed to “I wonder if she wants me” is so much more powerful because it puts you in a POWER POSITION. It allows you to say things to her like:

“Stop hitting on me.”
“I don’t care what you say. I’m not going to sleep with you.”
“Its pathetic how much you want me.”

And any number of other things. And what does having this frame do other than put you in a power position? If its strong enough, it will SUCK HER into the frame where she ACTUALLY wants you. And at that point, the game is over. Pass GO, collect $200, you’ve won.

I think too many guys get caught up in where the girl is at rather than putting her where they want her. Some of the best guys I’ve seen pick-up women: Swinggcat, Style, Zan, Craig, Tyler, etc — they all set the frame where the girl wants them. They set the frame where THEY decide if the girl is good enough. Its a funny little mind game, but one that is incredible to behold.

It all comes down to the power of frames.

For instance, Papa sets some of the most powerful frames I’ve ever seen. He is masterful at it, to the point of being psychotic — simply because he does it so naturally. I often times have to watch myself when I’m around him because if I’m not careful, he’ll suck me right into whatever frame he sets. Its amazing to behold, and probably one of the reasons so many guys see him as a good PUA. I’ve learned a lot from Papa, mostly just from hanging out with the guy and observing what he’s doing.

I’ve discussed the subject of Frames many times with Swinggcat as well. Obviously, “Frames” is not a new thing in the seduction arena, but the way Swingg lays them out in his book in terms of Frames and MetaFrames is a real eye opener, because it gives you a sense of just how powerful they can be.

So how do you set these frames?

I think it was the legendary Rick H. who once said “If you say anything with enough conviction, people will believe you.” Its as simple as that. It doesn’t matter if you believe what you’re saying or not (though it helps), but if you say it with enough conviction, others will accept it and go along with whatever reality is presented to them.

Swinggcat often tells me stories about his friend “Albino Gary Coleman,” who is basically a con artist. He says he will lie to people to get what he wants, and sometimes he will get caught in the lie. But instead of copping to the truth, what he’ll do is make up an even BIGGER more OUTRAGEOUS lie, never backtracking from what he said before, and suddenly a new frame is set and the person who caught him lying is once again mislead, all because he sticks to his tall tales so steadfastly and congruently, with no hesitation or doubt whatsoever.

That’s the power of frames. It is evil Jedi-Mind trick shit.

Please use it for good.

Thundercat

Initial Fear of the Approach — Revisited

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/24/03

Okay, so I got a reply from a guy about my little rant of fear of approaching, who just so happens to ALSO be the guy who originally brought it up on the D.C. Seduction e-mail list.  His reply is as follows:

Good post.

I’m wondering to what degree things like NLP could help with this. Something were you could ‘create’ these experiences of approaching HB in your mind several times a day for weeks before you start to do so in the real world. Has anyone done anything like this?

I’m also planning on using the 21 day method as found here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Seduction_The_Art_Of/message/419

Basically it just says to start small taking baby steps by just starting off by asking HB for directions, the time, etc. Just to get used to some sort of approach. Then expand to asking more complicated things, using eye contact, smiling, etc but keeping unrelated to a pickup. This sounds like a nice step to help get over the monster first hurdle of the cold approach.

I remember reading somewhere one trick is to not focus on yourself. Direct your focus on the HB. I guess kind of like the mind over matter stuff where people walk over coals. Focus is the trick. This may be something to keep in mind when I start. Keep the innermind completely silent.

So I’ve decided to repost my reply to him here on my blog.  Here it is:

> I’m wondering to what degree things like NLP could
> help with this. Something
> were you could ‘create’ these experiences of
> approaching HB in your mind
> several times a day for weeks before you start to do
> so in the real world.
> Has anyone done anything like this?

Its horseshit.

NLP will not help you.  You can’t use hypnosis as a crutch to help get you to “the point” where you start approaching girls.  It just won’t happen.  I know because I used to do that sort of stuff when I was an SS zombie and all it lead to was more dates with my hand, if you get my drift.

>
> I’m also planning on using the 21 day method as
> found here:
>

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Seduction_The_Art_Of/message/419

> Basically it just says to start small taking baby
> steps by just starting off
> by asking HB for directions, the time, etc. Just to
> get used to some sort of
> approach. Then expand to asking more complicated
> things, using eye contact,
> smiling, etc but keeping unrelated to a pickup. This
> sounds like a nice step
> to help get over the monster first hurdle of the
> cold approach.

Again, horseshit.

You will not get good at this taking baby steps.  Its like swimming in cold water, you just have to jump in head first.  That’s why I recommend taking a workshop or meeting up with other guys, because you will have a safety net with you while you start this off.  But the fact of the matter remains, all the NLP or Baby Steps in the world will just lead to more mental masturbation on your part.

You MUST face your fear and make a fool of yourself. Fuck up.  Make mistakes.  But most importantly, GET OUT IN THE FIELD.  The field is king.  Respect the field.  It will teach you all you need to know.  Period.

>
> I remember reading somewhere one trick is to not
> focus on yourself. Direct
> your focus on the HB. I guess kind of like the mind
> over matter stuff where
> people walk over coals. Focus is the trick. This may
> be something to keep in
> mind when I start. Keep the innermind completely
> silent.

I think the trick is to keep the outcome unattached in your mind.  When you’re first starting off, if your goal is simply “to get an answer from the girl and then walk away,” you know what the outcome is going to be, so you are more in control of the situation.  Its the uncertainty of outcome that fucks a lot of guys up.

The best way to disassociate yourself from the outcome is to decide how far its going to go beforehand and pursue that end.  Also, if you are intimidated by beautiful girls, learn to approach ugly girls and guys and practice striking up conversations with them.  I’ve been in many situations where I’ve had warpigs chasing me just because I bothered talking to them.  Its a nice ego boost (and puts you in the “hot chick” frame) and helps you as you work your way up the proverbial food chain.

>
> Any other tips, tricks, words of wisdom?

How’s this:  Stop thinking about doing it and do it.

Thundercat

Zen, and the Art of Opening

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/18/03

Okay all you wannabees. Here is an article I wrote a few months back for Cliff’s List on approaching women. Its not my best work to date, but it should get you started off in the right direction as far as upping your game to the next level. Obviously, if you can already approach worth a damn, you might very well get nothing from this post, so go back to looking at your internet pornography. I know i will. =)

Thundercat

*************************************************************

Zen, and the Art of Opening
An Essay on Approaching Women, by Thundercat

A butterfly flaps its wings, the breeze it creates sends a puff of pollen from a nearby flower into the air, causing a rhinoceros to sneeze. The sound of that sneeze causes a herd of zebras to stampede, disrupting the flow of wind current, which helps create a hurricane in the South Pacific, which causes American Airlines to cancel their flights that night, which means the girl of your dreams is forced to stay in town for one more day. You find her at your favorite bar with her friends, partying away her borrowed time.

Now what?

Though fate may have acted in your favor up to this point by doing the exact things necessary to get that exact girl to show up in that exact location at the exact same time that you would be there, the fact remains that it is now up to you to take action.

The idea of “opening” is the notion of approaching a woman with the express intent of engaging her in a conversation. By doing so, you then make her more receptive to talking to you, effectively opening her up for further interaction.

The “opener” is a line that is used to initiate the conversation. It is often the first sentence exchanged between the man and the woman he desires. “Pick-up Lines” are forms of openers, but openers can be anything to get the girl talking.

But there is more to opening than knowing what to say. Indeed, the process of “opening” a girl can be quite involved. The first thing to be aware of when opening a girl is the concept of “active disinterest.”

Now, those two words may seem rather nonsequiter or paradoxical when matched together. But there is an important reason why those two words should be matched together.

Have you ever been out and about, maybe in a bar or a club, and you see a beautiful woman. And after spotting said woman, you simply stand there, waiting for her to notice you and approach you? So you sit around trying to act cool, acting like you don’t see her, projecting a confident, macho attitude you hope is magnetic enough to get her attention?

Now, ask yourself how often that works.

This is an example of “inactive disinterest.” The opposite of this is when you actually take the action necessary to become noticed by the woman, while still portraying that disinterested attitude. Hence, “active disinterest.”

But why act disinterested? Obviously, you’re attracted to the girl, otherwise you wouldn’t be bothering to approach her. But put yourself in their position for a moment:

Imagine going through your average day, and being approached by a number of people who compliment you on your looks, your clothing, or an accessory of some sort, all because they want something from you. Kind of cheapens those compliments, doesn’t it? Especially when the seventh person of the day comes up and tells you how cool your purse is.

This is the reality of women, especially beautiful women. Women know men want to have sex with them. They get untold offers every day to have sex. Guy after guy will approach with that exact goal in mind. So girls, naturally, become accustomed to rejecting advances that telegraph intent, much the same way you might respond to a vagrant asking for change as you walk to work. You know what he is going to ask and you are prepared not to give it to him.

When you approach a woman and say “Hey baby, lookin’ good tonight,” you are telegraphing interest in an aggressive manor. By the same token, when you sheepishly approach and say “Hello. May I please buy you a drink?” you are not only telegraphing interest, but also doing so in a very wimpy way.

But when you enter with disinterest, you are neutral. You do not telegraph interest while neither coming off aggressive nor coming off wimpy. You are simply “Neutral.”

But being neutral simply isn’t enough, you must be engaging. Otherwise you run the risk of making the girl bored and having her walk away.

The best way to engage someone for the first time is by asking their opinion on something. When doing so, you are able to get them to invest their own personal thoughts and feelings into your burgeoning conversation. And once that’s invested, they are more likely to commit themselves to the interaction.

A neutral opinion opener can be anything that does not telegraph interest, while presenting options to your target that helps to encourage them to give and expand upon their opinion.

Examples of this are:

• Which was better, Star Wars or the Empire Strikes Back?
• Which do you prefer – Barbie or Skipper?
• Do you like coffee or tea better?
• Which is better – Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi?
• What’s cooler to listen to – 80′s music or 90′s music?

Each of the above openers are neutral, and they both ask an opinion. But if you use these openers before you have caught your target’s interest, you run the risk of having to repeat yourself, so it is preferable to preface each neutral opinion opener with an “attention grabber.” This can be as simple as:

Hey guys, I need an opinion on something…

or

Yo guys, check this out…

These will engage the target and get them to listen for the opener. Attention Grabbers do not really need to be processed by the brain, they just have to be loud enough to be heard. But note that it is still important for them to be neutral. This is apparent by keeping the words “girls” or “ladies” out of them. By saying such, you draw attention to the fact that you are a man approaching them, and are most likely looking for sex. Rather, you want to get in the habit of referring to the girl you open in a neutral yet friendly term, like “guy” or “dude.”

It is important to note that you want to avoid attention grabbers that come off too needy or wimpy. By starting off with “Excuse me,” or “Pardon me,” you are presupposing you are interrupting her and asking her permission to engage her, when in fact, it is much more powerful and effective to engage her without asking permission.

So when you approach a woman with active disinterest, and you use a neutral opinion opener, you are increasing your chances of engaging the woman, and minimized that probability she will reject you.

Thundercat

The Social Circle of Life

**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 12/16/03

Okay all you AFCs,

Here is a copy of my most recent article from Cliff’s List on Social Circles. Aside from the gay title, I think its pretty good. I’m still looking for my article on walk-ups. When I find that, I’ll post it.

Ho!

Thundercat

******************************************************

The Social Circle Of Life
How to Create the Best Possible Environment for Getting Laid
An Essay by Tundercat

I’ll be the first to admit it. I’m a nerd. I like to watch TV, go to movies, read books, play on my computer, and even partake in the occasional MMORPG. But when I’m not waxing philosophical about who could kick who’s ass — Kirk or Han Solo — I’m out trying to pick up chicks.

The thing is, what I do is cold approaches. Cold Approaches are basically approaches where you approach a woman you do not know in the hopes of attracting her so you can lay her. Without a doubt, this is probably the hardest form of Pick-Up there is. Why? Well, for one thing, the Fear Factor on cold approaches is the highest. They don’t know you, you don’t know them, and the risk of getting rejected is high. This is one of the reasons many people cannot do cold approaches. It is just much too scary.

But the reason I do them is because I currently have no better option available to me. If I don’t cold approach a girl, I won’t meet any. But a funny thing happens if you cold approach enough girls. You become friends with them!

As strange as it sounds, it is true. Though the average Pick-Up Artist (PUA) is not looking to make friends with the girls he approaches, odds are if they like you enough to fuck you, you will become friends. And even if they don’t want to fuck you, the least they are willing to become is a friend because they enjoy your company enough.

This is a funny little side effect to approaching, and because of it, my eyes were opened to something. It’s a dirty little secret, yet one that is so obvious I am surprised that I did not see it before. Are you ready? Okay, here it is:

Most people get laid from their social circles.

This is a fact, my friends. Sure, cold approaching can lead to the occasional one night stand (ONS), or even a same day lay that blossoms into a relationship. But very rarely does this happen. In fact, it happens so rarely, that I really rate my approach success based on the quality of numbers I get. I say quality because anyone can get a number, but a number from a girl who actually gives you her REAL number and will actually RETURN your phone call is so much more important than the quantity of numbers one receives.

But of all the guys I hang around with who get laid, the ones who do so with the most frequency are those with large social circles that include women in them. For instance, I have a friend who is going to college. He belongs to a number of groups: Martial Arts, Role Playing, Historical Reenactment, etc. And he gets laid. He gets laid a LOT. Probably more than most PUAs, and DEFINITELY more than me. The funny thing is, this guy DOES NOT APPROACH! In fact, he’s just as scared at approaching women as 90% of the guys reading mASF (moderate Alt Seduction Fast) are.

When I noticed this, I took a good look at the guys I know who are getting laid frequently, and sure enough, there was the proof. They were all getting laid from either girls they already knew, or met through friends, family, or some type of hobby.

This is an incredible revelation for me because social circles have always been the primary dipping source for men I knew were getting laid. Back in my AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) days, I’d only hang out with my guy friends, who weren’t getting laid either. I’d do solitary activities, play on the computer, and take part in social activities that were typically heavily attended by males. In short, my social circle did not include women, and because of that, I did not get laid.

As my awareness of women grows, along with my seduction skills, I am beginning to realize that being a PUA is not just about getting laid, but cultivating a social circle conducive to interacting with women ON A DAILY BASIS.

Most of the men I have met who are not getting laid or who are struggling to get laid are the ones whose social circles are almost completely empty of women, and the women who do encompass their social circles do not interact with them regularly.

A scary truth about guys not getting laid is that they are not comfortable talking to women. Sometimes, I STILL do not feel comfortable talking to women. And this can show in your sarging (interacting with women with the intent of laying them). I am willing to bet that most guys who cannot talk to or approach women do not have many female friends in their social circles. And if they do, the girls are friends they would like to fuck. They do not know what it is like to truly be friends with a girl they do not want to sex up, and because of that, there is always a feeling of comfortableness just below the surface of their interaction with girls, which the girls can pick up on and which completely throws off the guy’s state.

So the trick is to expand your social circle so it becomes something that is conducive to getting you laid.

The fact is, a female friend is the most powerful tool you have in your seduction arsenal, especially if she is attractive. Approaching other women with another woman who can social proof you and talk you up is probably the single most invaluable trick there is to approaching. When you have a female with you who is actively working to HELP you get laid, chances are it will happen, and more quickly than if you were acting on your own. Not only that, but the girl will also have friends that she will try to hook you up with if you demonstrate youв’re cool enough to be her friend. Through these girls, you will find your comfort around women increase, along with you success rate.

So how do you do this? Well, the first step is to befriend a girl. How is this done? Well, most AFCs (Average Frustrated Chumps) have had a lot of experience with the “Let’s Just Be Friends” area of life. But this is not the same thing. The fact is, with the “Let’s Just Be Friends” stigma, you are not really the girl’s friend because you still want to fuck her and she knows it.

The best way I know how to expand your social circle is to befriend other GUYS who are good with women. Not the type of guys who use women and throw them away, but the type of guys who are fun and always surrounded by girls. You befriend this guy, and he will introduce you to the girls who surround them. You can meet these guys anywhere, and it’s much easier to approach and make friends with men because there is no sexual tension there. You guys can connect on basic male subjects such as sports, women, business, etc. If nothing else, you may make a new valuable male friend out of the deal.

You can meet these guys anywhere you go, be it a club, bar, museum, concert, etc. It doesn’t matter. You will meet them doing stuff you like to do. Most guys will go for the girls right away, but if you befriend the guy who is IN with the girls, he will help you to get them.

Once in with the guys, its time to move onto the girls. Have him introduce you. Tell the girls how good of a friend he is. Show them that you’re a cool guy. Become their friends. The cooler the guy you befriend, the hotter the women he knows. The hotter the women he knows, the better quality of women they will introduce you to.

The next step will take a bit of willpower on your part, but you want to actually BEFRIEND the girl with the knowledge that you are not going to sleep with her. No matter how hot she is, you must take her out of the “I wanna FUCK!” category. This is crucial because if you go after her for the full monty (fuck), you could screw up the friendship.

But once she’s your friend, you can practice on her. Talk to her, call her up and bullshit, go out with her, let her feel safe and comfortable around you. Once she’s your buddy, get her to introduce you to her friends. Those are the ones you game on. This is because you’ll be at an advantage with them. Not only will you have a girl who is their friend hyping you up, but you’ll also be social proofed by the guy you befriended, who has also probably met the girl you’re being introduced to. Right there is instant social proof that you’re cool enough to hang with them. Then its time to game the girl, which should be easier than cold approaching because the meeting is inherent.

But when it comes to cold approaching, the women you befriend become even more powerful. This is where the real fun can happen. You can use your female friends to approach other groups of people. You can introduce her to the men while she does the same for you with the women. Not only that, its natural social proof when you’re with a girl, and you feel more comfortable talking to women, which makes you more attractive.

In fact, this is so powerful that I know PUAs who’s entire game is based on Social Circles. A woman you use to help you get laid is often referred to as a “Pivot” or a “Pawn.” They are used as pieces on a chessboard to break down defenses and open doorways to score checkmate.   One guy I know is SO effective with the girls in his social circle, that if there is a guy trying to get with a female friend of his, he will actually get the guy to pull him other chicks before he social proofs the guy with his friend. This is another great tactic, especially if you’re lazy about approaching. In this situation, not only are his pivots pulling other girls for him, but the guys after his pivots are as well. And in the end, all you’re getting is a bigger social circle which will make it easier to get laid.

It is very easy to befriend women, because when you make it clear you do not want to have sex with them, they can feel safe with you and allow you to “mess up” around them in practicing your PUA skills. Not only that, but being around women will teach you SO MUCH about pick-up, your game will rapidly increase.

In his book Real World Seduction, Swinggcat says “If you want to get good at picking-up women, surround yourself by five beautiful women who are good at getting guys.” This is important, because all the best PUAs just act like really hot chicks. They steal the chick frame that gets guys all into them and turn it around on the girls. The more you hang out with women, the more you will begin to incorporate this mindset into your seduction repertoire.

So friends, I recommend you go out there and start getting to know more girls in a non-sexual way. They will help you a great deal in adding some notches to your belt. I hope to expand my social circle massively in the coming future, so that I may also reap the benefits of having many lady friends.

Thundercat

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