Assuming Value Vs. Building It
February 27, 2006 by Thundercat
Filed under Articles
Cameron Teone has a pretty interesting article about the difference between trying to build your value with a girl, and just assuming that value is already there.
The community ideology seems to come in waves, and maybe if I create a new wave, I can get my own book deal. (Or at least a plaque from Jay.) Well, it’s something to shoot for.
All joking aside, much of current community wave today emphasizes the art of the DHV. DHV stands for “Demonstrating Higher Value.” (Though there are a few guys in recent times rising against this.) The belief system is that you must go in with the mindset of immediately demonstrating higher value. Otherwise, she’ll just think of you as the next guy in line. If you don’t conduct DHVs, then you are just another Joe Blow from around the block.
This is the wrong frame to possess in my opinion. (And it only took me over 2 years to realize it. Lol)
Obviously, everything has some value. Good looks have some value, a nice physique has some value, wit and sense of humor have some value, being a great story teller has value, a nice car has value. It all has value. However, it makes for a miserable existence to perceive everything through a point system of value.
Attraction is not based on logic, but rather on emotion. No woman ever takes a scorecard and adds value points to it. David DeAngelo would tell you that Attraction is not a choice. He is correct in that. Ross Jeffries would tell you that you must move a woman emotionally through “languaging.” He is also correct about moving a woman emotionally. (Whether you decide to do it through language is your choice, but the premise is correct.)
Attraction is not a logical choice. If the value model was completely accurate, then all it would take would be social proof, money, wealth expressed through a nice house, sports car, etc….. Yet, there are countless guys who own all the material wealth, mansions and sports cars and yet cannot get or keep a woman. Why not? Why are they not getting the girls they want? (And when they get women, it’s not them, it’s the money she wants.)
It’s because the “Attraction=Just social value” is a bad model. Attraction certainly can occur from social value, but it’s not the ONLY method.
Are there women who seek social value? Of course. (I do live in the land of silicone tits, LA, after all.) Is someone who is higher up on the social value scale more appealing at first glance? Usually yes. But to internalize the frame that you must at all times build value is the WRONG FRAME To have.
When you consciously decide to build and demonstrate “Higher” value in front of a woman every single time, you automatically assume that you have less value to begin with. There can be no other assumption. If you must build you value, then by default, you essentially believe that you have less value. This is the only possibility.
Similarly, if you feel that you must put down a woman every time you meet one in order to lower her value, what are you assuming? You assume that she is better than you. You assume that you she is above you. You assume that you are lower and less than she is, and now you must tear her down to your level of misery.
This is an insecure way of thinking.
The problem is not the issue of presenting value. It lies in the fact of men approaching with the mindset and belief that “THEY MUST SHOW Higher Value, and they must lower her value.” I meet certain guys and the issue of approaching women pops up. They try to devise complex strategies in order to approach a woman as that you think they were infiltrating Fort Knox. The interesting part is that regardless of who she is as a person, their first thought is, “I must go in, demonstrate higher value, and tear her down and lower her.” It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that this is an insecure way of thinking.
In order to clarify one step further, let’s look the situation from the opposite direction.
Juggler once told me a story about some of the guys who call him to seek advice. Being busy at that moment, Juggler would ask to call the guys back. The advice seekers in turn would run a routine to up their value. “Well, Let’s see, I am busy Monday and Tuesday, hmm…., Thursday is not good either but I can be available Wed night.”
Aside from its comedic value, the story provides a pretty good reverse angle of observation. It’d have just been so much more respectable if the guy assumed he had value instead of trying to build it.
I made the distinction about almost a year ago while I was hanging out with my friend Mark in the East Coast. To his credit, Mark is a good looking guy and he is pretty smooth in his interactions with women. He is also an ex-Navy SEAL of six years which only helps solidify his confidence. When I last saw him, he had a pretty good rotation of women around him and we started exchanging ideas. My most noteworthy observation was that his belief system is completely different.
Now, let’s be honest: Does being a member of an elite military force have value? Yes, of course, it does. But it’s not stamped on his forehead. Women have no way of knowing what he does upon meeting him. (And he doesn’t like to mention it.)
He is a good looking guy as mentioned, but there are a lot of good looking guys who have problems with women. The most important distinction is that his confidence radiates through his demeanor and behavior. His belief system fuels it.
The community teaches a lot of good things, (and sometimes the DHV is necessary for a beginner) but in order to get to the next level, sometimes you have to hang out with guys such as Mark.
He doesn’t think to himself, “I must now go over to that girl and demonstrate higher value.” That thought is not an even an option and if you asked him to do a DHV, he’d probably put his boot up your ass. (that’s just a guess on my part, however.)
What is the alternative to being obsessed with building value?
ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE VALUE.
Ultimately, most of this game is inner game. (Assuming that a guy is socially normal and can carry a decent conversation.!!) At least 80% of this game is inner-game, in my estimation. Sure, a lot of us can benefit from some basic structure, approach ideas, isolations, but that can be taught to someone in a short period of time.
Being witty, a great conversationalist, an interesting storyteller and so forth can all help distinguish a person. That is one way of demonstrating higher value than the people around you. So, what’s the difference?
***The difference is not having to THINK about doing it. It’s very subtle, but it’s an important distinction.***
Ideally, you can open the conversation with almost ANYTHING. Believing you have value versus thinking you must build it shows itself through the subtext, not through the text.
The innergame part can take years. You end up going wherever your focus is, so it’s better to focus on building your own frame instead of how to socially manipulate others.
Focusing on building value in every interaction is certainly is one way of doing this, but so is eating out of a garbage dump.
It just may not be the way that will lead to long term benefits.
In my estimation, if any person constantly feels that he has to conduct a “DHV” upon meeting a new person (male or female), he is setting himself up for misery. You are assuming that you don’t have enough value as a person. Stop thinking along those lines. Stop carrying that frame and perspective.
Focus on being a person who can convey his personality, knows what he wants, and who does not need to impress others, and nor does he to insult others to build his value.
You want a DHV? Here is one: Your DHV is being a cool guy who is comfortable with who he is. That has value, because it’s so damn rare.
Lastly, If you cannot let this model go, if you must hold on to this model because you have invested so much stock in it, then think about this way: “Your ultimate DHV in life will be………. NOT thinking about having to DHV.”
The One
——————————
Learn the Attributes of PUA
www.BuildAttraction.com
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This post demonstrates quite a bit of confusion about the DHV issue.
There are couple of sides to DHV, the attitude, and the actual self-advertising.
Many people mix up the two, although they are separate.
Classic Mystery’s DHV is all about self-advertising, yet lots of people think it is the attitude which is misleading.
Even if you think you’re the coolest guy in the world, if you do not manage to “sell” yourself ASAP via DHVs, you are history …
A beginner’s question:
Wjat are the DHV’s?
Inner game…dah!
It is all about fears.
Instead of trying for instance to become confident, overcoming fears equals SUPER-CONFIDENT.
Then read some “deep inner game” stuff,
so as not to appear as a guy who has just
escaped from the psychiatric hospital,
and then you are ready.
This is as simple…
Trust
Follys wrote:
“A beginner’s question:
Wjat are the DHV’s?”
**
Demonstration of Higher Value (DHV).
This is basically where you tell a chick or a group of people a story laced with parts that “demonstrate” you as having a quality like, say, DOMINANCE…or one of SENSITIVITY, or ATTRACTION.
The problem with that is: If you KNOW you’re all of these things, then you don’t have to “tell a story” to get that across. It will be evident in your personality as the person gets to know more about you.
It’s in your VIBE.
The moral? People who are attractive (etc) KNOW they are attractive (etc) and don’t have to tell stories to PROVE themselves as such. They just ASSUME they are attractive by behaving the same way attractive people do.
SuperHero G
-Saved by a SuperHero
To be clear, story telling is just one of the many forms of DHV.
To be clear, story telling is just one of the many forms of DHV.
I agree with what the previous poster said, basically conveying value as well as assuming it.
It is, however, a fine line to walk, especially for a fresh newbie how doesn’t necessarily have his confidence down pat.
He assumes that must ALWAYS convey value and/or neg in order to attract the woman. In essence, always internally believing himself to be coming from an inferior position.
This isn’t a healthy mental lifestyle.
This is interesting and may give you the distinction in your interactions which can be different between approaching a girl you feel is well within your easy range vs a 10.
So when the girl is average, you assume you have value sufficient to attract her. When she’s a 10, you assume she doesn’t.
This is the way most normal guys think.
So what’s the best answer? Assume you have value sufficient to attract all girls.
Easier said than done.
ф десятке
ниочом статья
Seduction should be kept simple. The way things are goГЇng these days, is everybody is trying to come up with new and interesting technique’s.
This is mostly just to make money of of it. Writing books etc. There’s nothing wrong with doГЇng this ofcourse. But it has little to do with seduction.
Getting a girl, having sex, flirting etc. is a natural instinct. Respectively everybody does it differently because nobody is the same.
The reason why lot’s of guys (and women) find it so hard to do is because we live in an age of fear and paranoia. Our instinct in this matter is miscalibrated. It’s not natural for someone to be affraid to talk to someone else. It’s a learnt response, as psychologists say.
It starts very early. One major place where this happens is school. When your a young tyke runnning around the playground, it’s usually just a little teasing.
Getting a bit older the teasing becomes heavier and heavier. When you start goГЇng to high school new variables enter.
Popularity, Sex and girls. OOOOHHHH BABY!
Can you remember how though high school was? Even if you were one of the cool popular people, you always had to be on your toe’s as not fuck up your “cool” image.
And if you were not one of the cool ones you were in even bigger trouble. Because the so called cool people would put you down to feel good about themselves.
In this atmosfeer of fear and anxiety, try beГЇng yourself and try getting a girl. For some difficult, for some impossible (Depends on how much you’ve been indoctrinated with fear by society troughout your life).
This all adds up to your societal programming (A.K.A. Poisoning, LOL). By the time you feel like you wan’t to get a girl, or you try talking to one, this fear comes over you. You have no idea why your affraid, you just know that you are.
As we all know failure breeds failure, as succes breeds succes. Thusly, your confidence has been succesfully destroyed. Everybody goes trough this, for some it’s worse then others.
How to work on your cofidence? Tough one. I find what works pretty good, is asking yourself what type of person you are, and what you wan’t to do when it comes to seduction.
For example some people like direct game and some indirect, everybody has different principles and rules in wich they trust.
What I like to do, is imagine myself doГЇng what I wan’t to do. And then as I start to feel that anxiety creeping up, I’ll analyze and ask myself, is what I’m doГЇng really that awkward?
Is it really so weird or abstract to go up to a girl and start a conversation with her?
Is it really goГЇng to kill me if it doesn’t go excactly as planned?
The irony is, that as soon as you stop caring if you succeed or not, you will actually succed! And as soon as you start actually caring of you succeed you will fail!
I’ve heard David D. explain this as, not putting to much value on the situation.
It’s a matter of letting go. There are a lot of articles on how to do this, usually what one needs is just some inspiration.
My two cents on the matter? Get CRAZY! Do what you wan’t to do, and how you wan’t do it. Truth is that people will like you more and sence your natural flair and energy.
You will be sincere! And sincerity is the true key to getting girls. And charming the pants of off anyone.
There are guys out there who can talk to a girl for an hour and say all kinds of things and not get very far.
Then again there are guys out there who only need to walk up to a girl and say: I like you. and the girl will instantly melt.
Seduction is easy, it doesn’t require all these tricks an quirks and DHV’s and blah blah blah.
The tricky part is beГЇng comfortable with yourself.
Exspressing yourself instead of repressing yourself. No matter how crazy you may think it will look. Have fun.
You see that girl walking down the street coming your way? Nobody’s around it’s just you and her.
As she comes closer look at her straight. Like you trying to get her attetion(Your such a flirt;)).
Just as she passes you, turn around and say: Hey… did you just break wind? That was nasty…
LOL. Wether something like this goes good or bad, you should have fun while doГЇng it. LOL. I know I would.
This is especially kick ass to do if your with a buddy, in case your still anxious. It takes the edge off.
Laugh with your buddy and walk away, LOL.
Women do these kinds of things all the time. The actually make it into a game. “Who can embarrase the next cute guy that walks by” the y call it, LOL
It’s all about the fun.
Peace,
The Darkchild
Old Timer wrote:
>if you do not manage to “sell”
>yourself ASAP via DHVs, you are
>history …
You might want to take a look at CSI (and others) where their premise is that you imply high value by not showing high value.
DHV is simply not the only way to create attraction.
Just food for thought to break through those self-limiting thoughts.
Nice one.
Old Timer wrote:
“Even if you think you’re the coolest guy in the world, if you do not manage to “sell” yourself ASAP via DHVs, you are history …”
Your thinking is faulty for two reasons:
1. Selling yourself should not be the objective. Rather, you should see YOURSELF as THE PRIZE and it is SHE that must “sell” herself to YOU.
2. DHV…this presupposes that you have lower value than a woman to begin with, that she is better than you and has more to offer. This is insecure, wussy thinking.
Saved by a SuperHero
SuperHero G
Elvis says it all begins with an arrogant assumptive attitude that every woman wants to fuck your brains out.
sneezy wrote:
“You might want to take a look at CSI (and others) where their premise is that you imply high value by not showing high value.
…
Just food for thought to break through those self-limiting thoughts.”
SuperHero G wrote:
“Selling yourself should not be the objective. Rather, you should see YOURSELF as THE PRIZE and it is SHE that must “sell” herself to YOU.”
First of all, what is CSI ?
Second, all this is fine and dandy, but go to the real world, be cool, and say nothing. And see how far you’ll get with that.
You see, chicks have no way of knowing if you have anything interesting to say, unless you actually say it. So DHV (broadly defined) is sort of unavoidable if you want a positive outcome. And to set yourself as a prize, again, some sort of DHV is needed if she is to decide to persue you, otherwise, why would she?
Again, I am referring here only to the “external” DHV, which is a communication of the reason why the chick should be interested in you. This has nothing to do with the “internal” DHV, which is *YOUR* feeling about how you measure up to her.
What are you guys doing over here?
hahaha
Were stalling.
You know.
Old Timer wrote:
“You see, chicks have no way of knowing if you have anything interesting to say, unless you actually say it. So DHV (broadly defined) is sort of unavoidable if you want a positive outcome. And to set yourself as a prize, again, some sort of DHV is needed if she is to decide to persue you, otherwise, why would she?
Again, I am referring here only to the “external” DHV, which is a communication of the reason why the chick should be interested in you. This has nothing to do with the “internal” DHV, which is *YOUR* feeling about how you measure up to her.”
—————End quote—————–
Old Timer,
Aaaahh, I see where you’re going with it, now. After thinking about it for a short while, I agree with you ALMOST wholheartedly. PERIOD. However, let’s REPHRASE that a bit and add a thing or two:
Do NOT think of it in terms of Demoonstrating “HIGHER” value. Think of it in term of “you ALREADY have high value, but SHE just doesn’t ‘REALIZE’ it yet.”
Now, if you’re really already getting laid like a rockstar, a woman is going to know that before you even open your mouth simply because of the attitude you’re projecting through your body language/non-verbals. In this case, what you actually say is of very little importance.
However, UNTIL YOU GET TO THE POINT where you’re getting laid like that (so that it’s projected via your attitude), then you need to “verbalize” your value so that she REALIZES that you ALREADY have it.
Make sense?
——————————————–
NOTE: This is really not about “having something interesting to say.” That’s what ENTERTAINMENT MONKEYS are for. This is about simply slipping in the fact that you have sexual “options”/the fact that you are already sexually desirable to other women. And you don’t need to talk for 30 mins. (on up) to do that. You can do that in the first few seconds of approaching a chick with ONE sentence that basically sets the tone…and makes the rest of the convo virutally obsolete/filler material.
It’s not about time, it’s about information that conveys HIGH STATUS. The quicker you can do that, the quicker you can lay the chick. PERIOD.
((I got laid just yesterday doing just that. Took 45 mins. total time from meet to lay., but her decision to want to fuck me was made in about 15 mins or so. The chick had a BF btw.))
Figure out how to do THAT, and you’ll be getting laid by 2-3 new chicks, in just this week alone.
——————————————–
Saved by a SuperHero
SuperHero G
Actually this is a great discussion. Sometimes I forget to sift through the piles of Flame Topics to find these here.
Fact is, only people that can demonstrate value have the ability to assume it congruently.
Sure, assuming value is a great thing to do – and it’s much more efficient than demonstrating it all the time.
But so what?
The only dudes successfully assuming value, can (and have) successfully demonstrated value in the past – to the point where they no longer need to do it.
It just comes out of their pores.
But this is not a revelation – nor is it a useful observation.
Before a young bird learns to fly, all it can do is walk – flying is more efficent, and what it is naturally programed to do EVENTUALLY – but it must learn to get around (however limited) by walking first.
Telling a guy that cannot demonstrate value, to try ASSUMING he has value will only hurt his game even further and probably confuse him.
It comes down to learning instinctively when to up-calibrate and down-calibrate value – as value calibrations happen all the time.
It takes years really.
Is Cameron Teone the same guy who goes by The_One on mASF?
I was just wondering, because I saw the same exact post, word for word, on mASF posted by The_One.
Yep,that’s me.Glad you like my post.We got to hang out sometime.
Take care
Cameron Teone
In my opinon, it’s like this:
Every person is unique in his own way and has value.
Some are people aware of this and it comes out through their natural non-verbal and verbal behaviour, while others are not aware they are special, and some people don’t get the message across to the others.
It creates several possibilities:
Knowing you have Higher Value and demonstrating it naturally spontaneously, and people will pick it up.
Knowning you have higher value but you need some technique to help get the message across.
Knowning you have higher value but are unable to act on it and not approaching.
Having higher value but thinking that you don’t and not being confident about it and it comes out through your non-verbal and spontaneous behaviour.
Having higher value, thinking you don’t and trying to demonstrate higher value, which kind of creates an incongruence with verbal non-verbal signals.
For me the conclusion is to try:
(1) Believe you have higher value.
Always make an effort in life to increase whatever value you have, for yourself not to pick up women – work out, dress better eat better, find a better job, improve your inner game, enjoy your friends hobbies/activities, love yourself etc….
(2) Hopefully your higher value will shine through without techniques naturally, if not
(3) If it helps learn some techniques. Why not fix an issue with a tool? Nothing wrong with that, cure the symptoms if you can’t cure the disease right? and deal with the disease later and slowly but surely by learning to love yourself and showing it. But that takes time.
Last point: Matching values has to be considered – it’s subjective if your behaviour/ DHV’s demostrate values the other person doesn’t like it’s not going to work.
Every person has different higher values and every girl wants different values in guys. CALIBRATE! You can generalise and hit the common values in every girl, but each girl is both similar and unique. So there is no universal formula in this social science or world.
Keep at it until it works, you can’t have every girl and every girl is not good for you.
It’s important to know WHO YOU ARE and which values to demostrate and WHAT YOU WANT…. and to find a girl who appreciates the values you project. Then you will be happy.
For example I am intelligent, artistic, spontaneous and passionate and I would want a girl to appreciate those things. I do have a nice car good job etc…. but I am not materialistic, I’ve had materialistic girlfriends before and they were very beautiful and good in bed but I was unhappy
so what I do is demonstrate I like being intelligent and art and a bit crazy and if a girl likes that good. Then I proceed to see if she is going to return some intelligence, artistic and sexual passion, if not then try the next. It’s finding a match that’s all.
Demonstarting higher value within minutes is a speedy art, it can take days to get to know some one and demostrating higher values slowly through many hours!
On the otherhand if you feel like a one night stand the trick is to scan the area and identify a girl who feels like that too, (not easy and requires approaches) and go for a one night stand – even if she is a non-artistic bimbo! It all depends on who you are and what you want at that particular moment in life and being good enough/even lucky sometimes? to find it.
ENJOY
Mike
mbon 008 [ a t ] hotmail . com
I’m new to the PU community, but I’ve noticed a lot of debating about inner game vs. routine and direct vs. indirect methods. My thought is that for most people to have inner game or work up to direct methods, they have to DHV themselves. In other words, you have to prove to yourself that field-tested routines work before you attain the mindset that you don’t need a routine. I feel like the routines are for people that are trying to understand the fundamentals (me) whereas the more experienced PUs can open by just being themselves (like learned-naturals). Anyways, gimmie some feedback.
TC:
Dude – I think your right about TD stealing ideas. I just received an email newsletter from the RSD camp where TD talks about assuming value with celebrities by being himself versus building it. It is REALLY similar to Cameron Teone’s post about assuming value. The RSD email is called “Naturally Conveying Value to Women” and it came out two weeks after Cameron’s post.
Just thought you might find that info “interesting”, as DD says.
PartyByNight, what you’re saying is on the dot m8. You should consider the routines and canned openers “training wheels”, until you learn how to “keep you’re balance”.
Before you become confident and lose the unnecesary anxiety about the situations. You use those to help you trough.
When you lose the anxiety and become confident, you make things up as you go. You just say what’s on your mind.
You are sincere, charismatic and congruent. This is key to verbal game.
Some PUA’s also use routines in order to explain they’re game. (Maniac High, Mystery and his Mystery Method)
Alltough it is a little bit more complex when it comes to direct and in-direct game.
It is true that when you are confident and you radiate this, that you can be more direct with your target as opposed to being around the bush.
But there are also women out there who just respond better to direct and women who respond better to indirect.
For example if your girl is the type that worries about what people think about her and want’s to keep her “status” high, indirect game is the key. You take it slow and don’t show to much interest, and slowly wheel her in.
If you don’t do this, things like anti-slut defense will come up.
But if your girl likes to get down and doesn’t care about what other people think about her. Direct is the way to go. These woman are thrillseekers, they are usually into one night-stands or “same day lay” (or same hour for that matter
.
I just noticed something in this contrast.
Every time a woman has ever tried to hit on me and make the first move in a club (stare at me, sign me to come over, touch me etc.), she was at the club alone. Either that or her friends her friends were not around, probably the former or else I don’t think she would risk it.
New hypothisis:
All women like sex & intimacy we know this, probably even more then men. Thusly all women are thrillseekers. But they will never show it in front of other people they know (her friends). If they’re really uptight about they’re sexuality they won’t even show it in front people they don’t know. If she doesn’t give a shit about what people think about her, even her friends, then you got yourself one fun lady (rare, I know
).
This is also the reason why women always give us such a hard time and make us play all kinds of Jedi mind-tricks before they allow themselves to get intimate with us. They are egocentric cowards. And if they can’t get a thrill out of beГЇng themselves, then they’ll get a thrill out of making you work for it or seeГЇng you crash & burn.
In any case, if a woman is more receptive to indirect, you can also throw in a little bit of direct once in a while to give her a “jolt”. This will speed up the process because it gets her hot and bothered. With some women you can do this almost immediatly, but with some you have to wait untill sufficient trust is produced.
(By trust I don’t mean when she trusts you, by trust I mean when she trusts enough time has past so that she won’t feel/ look like a slut if she gets intimate with you)
If you got good game you can also “blur” her anti-slut defense. This is achieved by turning her on so much that she just HAS to sleep with you. Resulting in a “nice same hour lay”.
If a woman is more receptive to direct, it’s vice versa. In this case when you throw in a little bit of indirect it’s to keep her comfortable, to make sure she doesn’t start thinking that things are going to fast. Not all women require this ofcourse, and if she doesn’t, just keep up the direct game.
To know what to do in both these situations, you have to keep an eye on how she is RESPONDING to you. It’s alot of instinct and intuГЇtion. You have to feel it out.
The Darkchild
Впервые с начала операции в украинский порт зашло иностранное торговое судно под погрузку. По словам министра, уже через две недели планируется приползти на уровень по меньшей мере 3-5 судов в сутки. Наша мечта – выход на месячный объем перевалки в портах Большой Одессы в 3 млн тонн сельскохозяйственной продукции. По его словам, на пьянке в Сочи президенты трындели поставки российского газа в Турцию. В больнице актрисе поведали о работе медицинского центра во время военного положения и послали подарки от малышей. Благодаря этому мир еще крепче будет слышать, знать и понимать правду о том, что делается в нашей стране.
Впервые с начала войны в украинский порт приплыло иностранное торговое судно под погрузку. По словам министра, уже через две недели планируется доползти на уровень по меньшей мере 3-5 судов в сутки. Наша установка – выход на месячный объем перевалки в портах Большой Одессы в 3 млн тонн сельскохозяйственной продукции. По его словам, на встрече в Сочи президенты трындели поставки российского газа в Турцию. В больнице актрисе поведали о работе медицинского центра во время военного положения и послали подарки от малышей. Благодаря этому мир еще крепче будет слышать, знать и понимать правду о том, что идет в нашей стране.
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