Is Tyler Durden A Fake?

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I know there are a lot of people out there who think I’m ragging on Real Social Dynamics just for the fun of it, but that’s not really the case.  I’ve actually been getting contacted a great deal by lots of different people with gripes about RSD, most of which I don’t really bother to post.

But occasionally, I get a post that’s really thought provoking, and it just so happens this one is right up there.

Semicond writes:
Hey TC,

Forgive the length of this email, I know you probably get a lot, but hopefully you’ll find this is worthy of being published on your blog.

I’ve been a lurker in the community for many years now.  I’m just a regular dude, don’t really take workshops or go to seminars or anything like that.  I just like to read the mASF message boards a lot.

And I’ve noticed something I wanted to share with everyone.

I remember back in the days when Tyler Durder started posting on mASF.  It was really cool to see a guy with a new perspective on stuff kind of rise through the ranks with his thoughts and ideas.

And he had some great posts, like the spastic rambling series.  There was a time there where Tyler really seemed to be innovating a lot of cool theories and ideas.

But recently, a lot of his posts have lost that excitement and revolutionary quality.  And by recently, I mean in the last year or so.

So I started going through a lot of the posts on mASF archive around the time period where TD was posting all his great stuff, and realized this was around the time of Project Hollywood, where TD was living with all those big time PUAs like Mystery and Style.

After reading Style’s book, I got the idea that TD was also traveling around and meeting with really good PUAs at this time as well.

But ever since Project Hollywood ended, and the RSD guys have been ostricized by the big time guys, TD’s posts have gone down hill, which leads me to believe that most of the really cool stuff Tyler "developed" and posted about in the good old days were really concepts and ideas he took from much better pick up artists and re-wrote to make it look like he came up with it.

I’m not making this claim lightly.  If you look at some of TD’s old posts, and compare them to his recent posts, you’ll see big differences.

In the old posts, he had some really interesting core ideas which he went on to theorise on and test out.

In his new posts, it’s more like he’s got the same old ideas which he tries to drag out into something new.  A lot of his posts make me feel like I’m reading a term paper where he’s trying to hide the fact he has no new ideas with a bunch of psychobable writing.

So I want to pose this question…

Do you think Tyler was ever really that great of a PUA?  Or was he just a really smart keyboard jockey who stole his best stuff from better PUAs like Mystery and Sytle?

Thanks for your time.

Semicond

Well, I’d be lying if I said this wasn’t a provocative email.  It is true that Tyler’s best stuff came when he was living with Mystery and Style in Project Hollywood, and when he was traveling around the world meeting the great PUAs from Mystery’s Lounge.

And it’s also true that his posts since Project Hollywood imploded have been pretty lackluster.

There’s been a lot of controversy over TD’s skill level ever since he appeared on the scene.  I remember the big threads on Mystery’s Lounge about whether Tyler was a fake or not.  This is stuff that wasn’t viewable by anyone but the people on the Lounge, but there were a great many people who knew Tyler who thought he was full of shit.

Eventually, his friends outweighed his enemies, so he was accepted into the fold.  But you can’t deny that sometimes Tyler stretches the truth when it comes to his own prowess as a ladies man.

TD has been caught in a few fibs, such as him saying he can "open any set," or claiming the girls he sarges are 9s and 10s when in reality they were more like 6s and 7s.

And for everyone who’s read The Game, you know TD is really insecure, defensive, and manipulative.

I’ve even had eye-witnesses come forward and tell me that TD had a whole "Gay" routine worked out with wingmen where him and his wingman would actually MAKE OUT with each other in front of girls to try and get the girls to make out with each other.

(If that’s the kind of innovation TD is pioneering, I think I’ll stick to the old stuff)

So there’s a lot of shady stuff going on with TD, and if he really did get his best concepts from better PUAs like Mystery and Style, well… I can’t say I’d be surprized.

Know What You Want

Apparently the rumors of Vince Runza’s death/incarceration have been greatly exagerated.  The old time seducer has resurfaced with a new post about where your focus needs to be for becoming successful with women.

Vince Runza writes:
To the Group:
Guys come here to learn how to seduce women, right? But, for each guy, that means something different. For some, it means getting that one, special girl – which will get him two or three good smacks in the head from the guys here. For others, it’s hooking up with elite women in very competitive venues. Then, there are the guys who just want to overcome a lifetime of virginity. In fact, there are as many reasons as there are guys.

I applaud any and all reasons which are good for both parties in a seduction. If you’re a cad (or a psycho), alas! This stuff will work for you, too. Some of the things that work for nice seduction will also enable the twisted. There’s a point to this: once you know what you’re trying to accomplish, the tools to do so are here.

Therefore, you must decide exactly what you want. Since there are different means (strategies, tactics and techniques), the ones you choose must be congruent with who you are. If you are low-key, only interested in hooking up and don’t want a LTR, check out Gunwitch Method. If you’re an ‘edge junkie’ with a reasonable amount of success, perhaps MM or RSD will enhance your game. If you’re a nerd/geek, perhaps SS.

Mind you, I’m not endorsing any one method or another. I’m simply pointing out that you can’t do things arbitrarily – dress up like a rock star, spout pattern language, do magic tricks, etc. with no eye toward results. You start with where you are now and progress toward where you want to be. Let me emphasize – it’s where YOU want to be in the future, not where other guys want to be – or where they want YOU to be.

It’s really a two step process: get your head screwed on straight and realize it’s YOUR reality. Step one is really hard. Knowing what you truly value takes a serious, intense search of yourself. That can be painful. It can also be elusive – what you really want today may be very different six months from now. Once you do know exactly what you want, step two happens naturally. The whole world begins to revolve around YOUR reality, because you are totally congruent with what you value. Actually, the whole world goes on exactly as before – you simply don’t get in the way of it giving you everything you want.

That is mastery.

Vince

Nice to see ol’ Runzi back in action.  =)

Assuming Value Vs. Building It

Cameron Teone has a pretty interesting article about the difference between trying to build your value with a girl, and just assuming that value is already there.

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Read more

Neil Strauss Break-Up Rumors

Okay, there’s been a lot of hub-bub about a story in the gossip rag Sunday Mirror about Lisa Levridge breaking up with Neil Strauss to date musician Robbie Williams.  You can find the story here.  There are also a few mASF threads on the topic here and here.

I got a lot of emails from you guys over the weekend concerning this story, so I went right to the source.  Since I know both Neil and Lisa, I decided to contact them and see what was up, especially since you can trust the Sunday Mirror about as much as you can trust Page 6, which is wrong about 90% of the time.

I was told there was no truth to the item, and that you shouldn’t believe everything you read in the gossip rags.  And Lisa confirmed this.

So there you go.  That’s all I know on the subject.

Workshop Reviews Site

After all the hub-bub of RSD scams going on, someone has stepped up and started a site where people can post their own reviews of workshops.  I guess you can say this is kind-of like a PUA Consumer Reports site.  Here’s the details:

Mike writes:
Dear Thundercat,

The past few days have been really eye opening. Reading your blog has made me realize that there is alot of shady shit going on in the bootcamp/workshop industry.

Your posts of late have inspired me to start a new website, where people in the community can go to share reviews and get educated on what’s really going on.

Currently, there are about 15 reviews, collected with the permission of people who have taken workshops. There is a form where guys can submit reviews, which will be moderated by me (i have no affiliation with any company), where I can make sure people arn’t spamming.

It’s my hope that if we can all contribute experiences, we will be able to avoid situations where people are this unhappy with their workshop experiences.

His site is seductionworkshopreviews.com.  Definitely worth checking out.

Tyler Durden Clones Busted?

A few days ago I posted about an interesting phenomenon going on here in Los Angeles with guys pretending to be Mystery in clubs in order to pick up chicks.

Well, now it seems it’s happening in New York too, but this time it’s not Mystery who’s being impersonated, it’s Tyler Durden.  And they’re apparently not even doing a very good job of it either.

The following is an email I got from a girl named Laura talking about her run-in with the PUAs/Tyler Cone.

Laura writes:
I just wanted to write because I’ve heard of this happening but never actually thought guys would be so hapless at a local, low-key bar. Wrongo!

I was out in the East Village tonight and there was a huge group of men aimlessly sarging. One approached two friends and me and said "I need an opinion on something." Unfortunately I’ve not only read The Game but wrote about it for a couple of relationship venues so I pointed out immediately that I knew what he was doing.

First he asked if is we’d date a guy in a wheelchair, which sort of tanked because one of my friends already did date a guy in a wheelchair and another of my friends dated the hot guy from Murderball so we were like "yeah." So he started playing the strawberry game with my other friend, but fucked it up by telling her it was her strawberry field and then asking what she’d say to the farmer she’d stolen from and she was like "But the strawberries were mine."

Then the wingman-god-knows-what came up and started delivering a routine about approaching some midgets on the street and insulting them which, instead of demonstrating value, demonstrated that he was rude to midgets and didn’t have a good punchline for his story. The awkward/obvious part was that in between, we interrupted to try to have a real conversation about what he was talking about, and he just totally froze, didn’t acknowledge anything, then dove back into his clearly-rehearsed script.

So here’s the best part: when wingman #2 came up to say "I heard someone over here is talking about sex," Mr. Strawberry hadn’t even gotten to the part where he’d analyzed the game and said it was about sex because he was doing such a dreadful job. So Mister Two said "Well I heard you said you’d read the game? I’m in that. I’m Tyler Durden. I’m here teaching these guys." Oh and he also proved his close friendship with Neil by revealing the top-secret insider information that Neil used to be a writer for "The Rolling Stone" magazine. Which, good cover, except he wasn’t Tyler Durden. At all. And I did what any girl would do OBviously and called Neil Strauss and asked him Tyler’s real first name which wasn’t the one on Mr. 2′s passport. The end.

Just FYI we would have talked to any of them if they’d feigned interest in us rather than painfully reciting memorized lines that made us feel like we were watching a showcase of dramatic readings at the local high school. Oh, and not said they were Tyler Durden, which is just retarded and weird.

Owch.

Either these guys are newbies who just took their first RSD seminar, or they’re a couple losers who went out right after reading The Game.  Either way, they’re going through their learning curve.  But for anyone out there interested, I will say this:

If you’re going to PRETEND to be someone, pretend to be someone rich, famous, or powerful instead of pretending to be a PUA.  Especially one named after a character in a well known book/movie like Fight Club.  You’ll get much farther in the long run.

Yet AnotherPoor Review Of Real Social Dynamics

Man, these reviews just keep coming in…

Boss Playa writes:

I am going to try and make this review of my experience of the Real
Social Dynamics workshop as unbiased as possible and let you decide
come to your own conclusions.

The instructors for this workshop were
Mike, Jlaix (Jeffy) and Christophe. The first night the instructors
told us it was going to be nothing but approaching. I wasn’t looking
forward to this considering that going into the workshop I had done
over a 1,000 approaches (which is over 20x more than any of the other
students). Since the workshop was held in my hometown Chicago I
suggested that we head off to a bar called the Apartment.

When we get
there Jlaix asked anyone if they want drinks and orders one for
himself. He makes me open a set which I do and afterward he says I did
really well so the rest of the workshop he’s pretty much off my back
about approaching except maybe 4 other times. The entire reason I took
this workshop was to see the instructors game, not to approach.

The
entire night I continue to pick Jlaix’s brain because I think he’s got
phenomenal game even though I haven’t seen him ever open a set and I
try to get him to approach the whole night. I eventually get Jlaix and
Christophe to open a set and I sit one foot away from them to listen.
From my perspective Jlaix’s girl looks into him for the first three
minutes or so and Christophe, for whatever reason, stops talking to his
girl. Soon after the girls go to the bathroom.

The set lasted about 5
minutes. At the end of the night we debriefed in a pizza place and Mike
was reading off of a card what we need to do better next time. That was
day 1. On day 2 the instructors stated that the goal was for the
students to use a routine stack. We went to the same bar, the
Apartment, and I once again was forced to do very little which was fine
by me as long as the instructors approached.

The only thing I had to do
this was reopen the same girl with the same opener about 4 times which
was no problem. Jlaix was testing my anxiety and persistence and
thought the girls might become more into me if I looked like I didn’t
give a fuck.

At one point in the night every student was with
Christophe and I realized no one had any idea where Jlaix or Mike were.
They had been gone at least half an hour. I asked Christophe where they
were and he didn’t know so he had the other students open sets while he
and I went out on a mission to find them. We went upstairs and found
them in a corner laughing with drinks in their hands and having a good
time.

Christophe started screaming at them and they replied that they
were opening sets for students. There were clearly no students around
them or even on the same floor as them and there were clearly no girls
near them. At the end of the night when we debriefed one of the
students flipped out that Mike and Jlaix were gone so long and Mike
replied that he was doing demos then the student yelled out “Bullshit!”
and they had nothing to say back.

These debriefs were all held in the
same pizza place which was a very public setting were people could hear
us talk about game. That night one guy who was not in the workshop and
was eating at the pizza place yelled out “I have a question” to Jlaix
and Jlaix responded “Yes, you’re fat”. The guy, who was about twice
Jlaix’s size, then charged at Jlaix and shoved him in the chair he was
sitting in so hard that Jlaix got knocked right into the wall and broke
the chair he was sitting in into 3 pieces.

The cops then came but Jlaix
didn’t press charges so it was a very short dispute. The past 2 days
the instructors had said that the third day would be all demos so I was
reallllllly looking forward to this day.

Before we headed out I
mentioned to Jlaix and Mike about how they were gone so long last night
and they claimed they couldn’t remember this. They didn’t deny it or
accept it. They claimed they just couldn’t remember. I assumed that
either they were lying or they had drinken too much last night or a
combination of both. When we arrived at the same bar the Apartment once
again for the third day in a row they told us that only the second half
of the third day would be demos.

Like the rest of the days, the other
students were pushed into sets and didn’t do anything else the first
half of this day. When we got there Mike saw that the college he
attends UCLA had a close football game on TV so he took some time out
to watch it and not pay any attention to the students. He was by
himself at the bar watching a football game.

During the second half of
the day Mike and Jlaix opened a set of girls and Mike soon told one the
girls that her head was shaped like a pear. She angrily went to the
bathroom and Mike grabbed her arm but she pushed it away.

Next set of
girls Mike and Jlaix talked to were 2 girls. I was right next to them
the whole time. Mike talked to his girl for a few minutes then she
started losing interest and turned the other direction. For whatever
reason the girls left 10 minutes into the conversation. Jlaix talked to
another girl for about 5 minutes and then she left. She ran to her
friends saying “ewww. That guy said he would do —– if I kissed him
so I left.” At the end of the night none of the instructors sets were
going that well. Jlaix ended up talking to a girl that was
approximately 5’5” and 250 lbs. All Christophe could say was “she’s not
sleeping in our room tonight”.

I took a cab ride back with two of the other students and both
students were saying how none of the instructors were that good. One of
the students said he didn’t think Christophe talked to any girls the
whole time he was there and the other student compared them to another
workshop company saying that the other workshop instructors didn’t go
for super hot chicks but at least they had some skill compared to the
RSD instructors.

So here is where I put in my opinion. I’d say the instructors skill
level was very low. I honestly have friends who on their worst nights
still do better than any of the instructors were doing which made me
very unsatified. Christophe goes in high energy on the girls he talks
to and never drops it which I thought was totally a beginner’s mistake.
I don’t think any of the instructors were good enough to be teaching
guys how to get women. Also, expect to take shit from the instructors.

They know that 99% of the guys who take these workshops are wimps and
don’t stand their ground so they take full advantage of this. On the
third night I really didn’t want to go to the Apartment bar for the
third night in a row because I wanted to go to a nice venue and see the
instructors talk to really hot women. On the third day Mike said we
could go someone nice if all the students agreed.

Well, all the
students agreed then Mike said how only the instructors know which
place is best for the students. The real reason the instructors wanted
to go the Apartment bar was because Mike and Jlaix wanted cheap drinks.
Every night they drank and Jlaix even mentioned to me about how cool it
was that they had $2 St. Pauly Girl beer.

Overall I think the students
got very little value out of the workshop. All most of them did was go
into set for a few minutes and then leave. Another things the
instructors do is say that they make barely any money off of these
workshops and that they just do it for the students which is completely
off.

The CEO Nick wears $800 D & G shoes from what I’ve heard and I
know someone else who saw the other CEO Tyler (Owen) with 4 full
shopping bags of clothes in his hands after shopping at Melrose in L.A.
which is extremely expensive. After the workshop I talked to Tyler
about the issues I had with the workshop and he said he was going to
call some of the students to verify it and get back to me but he never
did, even after I tried to contact him several times after.

Buyer Beware.