Mystery On “ASF Philosophy”
August 31, 2005 by Thundercat
Filed under Rants & Reviews
In my post called "Where ASF Philosophy Went Wrong," I talked about how I don’t agree with the Fake It ’till you Make It mentality. Well, it seems the world’s most well known pick-up artist Mystery doesn’t agree! He wrote a rather long and well-thought out counter argument which I thought deserved it’s own thread.
Mystery writes:
I respectfully disagree. Id also like to point out that the logic
presented is irrational – a common error those who do not adopt the
scientific method may make. If you dont already see the break in logic
then read The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, chapter 17: The Balony
Detection Kit. Read it and find out for yourself why the above post is
‘absurd’.Let me take a moment, as a PUA who everyone knows smokes all others
(open challenges to all as usual – Im slotted to challenge the winner
of the Hypnotica vs. Formhandle match when they have time to schedule a
get together – all for fun), to explain INDIRECT and FAKE IT TIL YOU
MAKE IT.First, on to indirect.
The indirect approach has little to do with inner game and handling fear. Either way, direct or indirect, we fear the approach.
the reason we go in indirect is so that we do not convey interest in
the target and have her friends cockblock and protect her from you. the
idea is to FIRST demonstrate a higher value (DHV) BEFORE we IOI. Just
walking up and talking DIRECTLY to the target is an IOI. the friends
feel threatened and pull her away. Using the indirect approach has
little to do with confidence. its not an inner game tactic but instead
a massively field tested tactical OUTER GAME concept. You initiate a
chat with the entire group (not just to the target) while NEGGING the
target to DISARM the friends from thinking you are an immediate
potential suitor (you dont know who the boyfriend is or who the brother
is – afterall we use indirect approach tactics on GROUPS of people -
hardly a COWARDLY action). Negging the target to disarm the others buys
you time to DHV in front of the target. The DHV spikes in your stories
will not appear to be BRAGGART in nature this way because you already
disqualified yourself before the target or her friends start to. In
fact, its so counter-intuitive, I understand how certain PUA wannabes
who dont interact with other PUAs (Stephane as I recall was the odd
anti-social barefoot and no shirt guy at the LA DYD seminar – while
everyone else wore clothes appropriately for a seminar – whats the word
for negative peacocking? clowning?) will lock themselves out of
adopting massively field tested principles. Indirect isnt easy. But one
thing is certain (as a man to DEMONSTRATES it in field duirng bootcamp
- and yes, as usual, I was successful in getting #s every night in
front of my students — and on last night’s occasion … um, more),
INDIRECT approach game delivers the fucking goods.Perhaps Stephane and I can compare girls, current or historic. Who’s
girls are hotter. Who’s had more hot girls. Who can captivate a group
and befriend others. Perhaps we can compare our leadership social
circles. But before we do this, why not SEE who these people look like
in front of others.Perhaps you will watch the difference between Stephane and I
speaking in front of 130 people and cameras if you see us both speak on
the Cliff’s List Seminar DVD. Decide for yourself. You can train in the
direct approach (which limits you to approach SINGLES only) and look
like Stephane or train in the indirect approach and peacocking aside,
look like Mystery.I believe the indirect approach is far more versatile because it
allows you to approach large groups, with men in them (women of beauty
are rarely found alone – especially supermodels) and DHV BEFORE you IOI.There are 3 attraction switches that make must be triggered in order to DHV:
1. proof you are pre-selected by other women
2. proof you are the leader of men
3. proof you protect and defend your loved ones and are loyal to themIf you can convey this BEFORE you give IOIs then you will GET IOIs before you GIVE THEM.
attraction must occur BEFORE she will want to build comfort with
you. Imagine how easy it is to build comfort with a girl if she is
attracted to you FIRST.DIRECT = singles only = hope the confidence in going direct is enough to build attraction = fool’s mate
INDIRECT = great for groups and women of PARTICULAR BEAUTY (you HAVE
seen my ex-gfs right?) = befriend the friends FIRST and be given the
opportunity to repeatedly trigger the 3 attraction switches that ALL
TRIBAL LEADERS trigger and then give IOIs only AFTER you get them from
the girl.To decide for yourself which is right for you, watch the Cliff’s
List DVD and judge for yourself. Which principle builds a more
charismatic personality?The barefoot and shirtless thing didnt exactly work to build rapport
with anyone but that doesnt mean it doesnt have its place. If I were
singing in front of 60,000 perhaps it would work – in fact, I plan on
doing this in the future. But doing that and bringing a half naked girl
(which may have worked if her objective replication value were perhaps
higher – no disrespect to her Im sure she’s a great girl despite her
bloated pelvis – but it was in THAT particular social scenario – um,
fuckin’ weird dude haa) only alienates. Certainly I brought my GF too,
but I kept her dressed and we brought our puppy so people could see she
and I were easily approachable. You dont want to alienate the very
people you are trying to help afterall. group dynamics include
conducting seminars too. Maybe those at the LA DYD event or Montreal
event will speak up and offer their first person accounts on meeting
Stephane (or seeing how people avoided him) and I.We are here to survive and replicate. to S & R. sure we want to
get the girls S&R value to improve our chances. yes we want
something from her (S&R value). but wouldnt it just make more sense
to NOT go for her value and try to take take take (direct) and instead
give give give by demonstrating higher value to her and her friends
FIRST? Its ultimately the woman’s choice. if she sees your value FIRST,
then she will try to align with YOU. add in NEGs to disqualify yourself
from being a potential suitor at the begining and you not only keep
your approach form looking like you WANT SOMETHING (like a beggar) from
HER, but you structure the challenge for her to attempt to win YOUR
S&R value for HER.Im a proponent of INDIRECT GROUP APPROACH THEORY because it clearly
delivers the goods. So is Style – who Thundercat rated as #1 in the
community. And Toecutter. And TD. The guys who are publically known for
being good all use indirect group theory. not because they are scared
for sure. but because it solves real world infield problems. Is it a
coincidence that the best PUAs use indirect? Is it a coincidence that
the best PUAs dont alienate and maike others avoid them? Is it a
coincidence that ALL our girls have a higher R value?I would like Stephane to see that indirect solves more problems
infield … or rather, it keeps problems from even appearing … like
alienating the friends, telegraphing too much interest on a 10 who gets
all the attention she needs, making 100s of people avoid you or want to
meet you, and building a rep as a guy who hits on every girl (to go
direct is to give IOIs right away – if she shoots you down because you
havent DHV’d first anyways, you get a bad reputation and lower your
chances of proving you are pre-selected when those girls tell their
peers they said no to you).do I use direct? certainly. on singles. but only after I have worked
an adjacent set in an effort to prove I am pre-selected. See, opening
one set and then another and merging them together triggers
pre-selection and build a jealousy plotline. why do we need this? well,
a woman may not KNOW she is attracted until she is surprised to find
out she is jealousy and FEELS the surprising fear of potential loss of
you to another girl. The J-plotline is injected into C1, the first
phase of the comfort building stage usually (or C2 is you cant merge
sets due to lack of targets in a given environment).As for the FAKE IT TIL YOU MAKE IT thing, again, the logic fallacy
is appropriately found in The Balony Detection Kit chapter of Sagan’s
book. I live in a world of "ACT AS IF …"I act as IF Im a ladies man. And guess what. If you arent a ladies
man but you act as IF you are (and trigger the pre-selection attraction
switch by having women from previous sets on your arms or having
stories with pre-selection triggering DHV spikes embedded into those
stories), then they will assume you ARE a ladies man and will treat you
like one – by trying to align with you and get some of that S&R
value all those girls hanging around you prove you must have. It helps
(trust me).Im now going to act as IF … Im hungry. Yoshinoya I dont care what
you say kicks ass. oooh one BETTER! Thundercat Im in LA. Im hankering
for a steak. Im gonna call you now.Love !Mystery
I guess I’ll just have to agree to disagree with Mystery on this one. (by the way, still waiting for your call, Mystery)
Danielsig on 
WesleyGof on 
Well spoken indeed! .
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