Cliff’s List Seminar Report, Part I
August 2, 2005 by Thundercat
Filed under Rants & Reviews
Here is part 1 (of 2) of the Cliff’s List Seminar Report. Special thanks to Senior Lucas for writing this up. Part 2 will be up tomorrow.
Montréal, QC – 15 to 17 July 2005
Arriving at the seminar the morning of July 15, I had just finished my two-week hiatus. I had decided to take a full two weeks of not reading any seduction materials, including books, newsletters or videos. Since I am an avid reader and love this topic, this was very hard to do, very much like breaking an addiction. I took this break on the understanding that the subconscious mind cannot properly absorb information to the point of implementation, if it is constantly being fed new data without any breaks for meditation and absorption. So when I arrived at the seminar, my mind was eager and hungry!
Montreal is a beautiful city that is in a time warp. Almost everything looks as it did in the late 1970’s. Overspending on the 1976 Olympics put the city in a deep hole from which it is still recovering. The hotel was elegant and mostly well maintained but again I felt like I was in the 1970s by the look and feel of the place.
The seminar room was an elegant ballroom, smaller than those typically used by David DeAngelo. There were soft white lighting panels for the cameras, which are far less harsh on the eyes than the floodlights I had seen at DYD seminars.
The stage had two chairs and much of the seminar was conducted in an interview format, with a guy named Claude William from the Montreal Lair asking much of the questions. William asked some great questions and was an excellent interviewer, but he needs to watch the DYD Body Language video; he regularly sat with his legs crossed, which as I understand from several women is a big NO-NO for an Alpha Male! Other than that, he was great.
Some questions from the audience we allowed as well, and I got a chance to ask several. This was breakthrough number one for me! I had been working on inner confidence, approach anxiety, and so forth, and here I was conversing with PUAs and asking them questions in front of a live audience. For some reason, I had a bigger mental obstacle with AMOGs than I ever did with women, and I am glad to be getting this handled.
DISCLOSURE: I am in no way “affiliated” with this seminar. I did buy Craiger a drink on Friday night, and he works for David D., but I don’t think he remembers. I have helped out at a couple of David D. seminars in the past.
First up was Stephane Hemon of IdeaGasms.com. He is advocating a completely natural approach to seduction. He claimed he did not rehearse for the part because he is working hard on being in the here and now and believes that routines imply that you’re a lower-value person to begin with. He discussed the four types of energy suckers that you want to avoid in the world and how to recognize them. He talked briefly about how to give women squirting orgasms. And the most important point of his presentation was the idea that he no longer “games” women; he simply qualifies them, based on REAL criteria that he has and no false qualifier B.S.
Next up was Dr. Alex Benzer aka Dr. Tao. A very well spoken and highly educated man from Harvard and Cambridge. He teaches a “complete system” mix of Western and Eastern knowledge. The three components are: 1. Abundance/Wealth-consciousness; 2. Enlightened Self-Interest; and 3. The Be-Do-Have Philosophy of Success.
The latter was interesting: to be a PUA, first you need to BE a PUA, internally. Next you need to DO the things that a PUA does. THEN, and only then, will you have the results of a PUA. In other words, techniques, although important, come LAST on your development path. In that regard he did give some specific sexual exercises to help one become more proficient in bed. These three simple steps apply to all areas of life, and most people take these steps backwards, which is why they are not successful.
Next up was Dave M. of Insiderinternetdating.com. 97% of men quit online dating within four months due to lack of results, and there are four reasons why they suck:
- Their profiles suck
- Their photos are horrible
- They send out bad emails
- They do not understand the psychological process.
The first thing you need to do is define your target market, and then become immersed in what you’re doing by learning, applying and modifying. The magic formula is Mystery (the concept, not the guy) + Intrigue = Interest. You need to have a powerful, positive intent. If you have five dates lined up for the week, as opposed to just one, your entire physiology will change and this will be evident to each of the five women you see.
A lot of good tips by Dave M. if you’re interested in online dating. I got a chance to talk to him a couple of times and he is a good, down-to-earth guy with a lot of insight. You would not think of him as a PUA if you just met him and were discussing other topics.
We broke for lunch and came back to see Brent of absolutepowerdating.com. He was once roommates with David D. and Rick. Everything we choose to do gives us a reward on some level. For example, what am I GAINING by not being consistent with women? Perhaps it’s the ability to be right in my view of the world, or to avoid rejection. Fear of success is a real issue for people. Stop trying to become successful with women, just BE that way. I must decide what I want and give the brain continuous reinforcement. Be attached to nothing and yet committed to everything. I become what I think about most. Understand that failure is the best teacher. Always act and believe that she is hitting on me, because whatever I know will happen is exactly what will happen!
Next was Tyler Durden. He talked about the two types of PUA, the Naturally Attractive guy, and the Mechanical Genius. Both skill sets are important and one follows the other. There are constant seeming contradictions in the knowledge we get from this community, like chick logic for guys. As in the advice “just be yourself man! Don’t put on an act!” vs. “hey, being myself isn’t getting results, so I need to change who I am to get results!”, and so on. However, Tyler has found that there are certain universals common to all good PUAs:
- The frame I adopt (Direct vs. Indirect, etc.) is not as important as my confidence in the frame.
- It is easiest for the high-status person in any interaction to be the least reactive when it comes to eye contact, laughter, clear voice projection and so forth.
- The logical brain of the female is attracted to rich, tall, handsome. The emotional brain is captivated by social proof, and is attracted to the man that is sucking people in to his reality (this is why bartenders, bouncers, managers can attract without having any good game).
- To be High Status I need to be non-reactive, as discussed in point 2, but I also need to be PROACTIVE, as in going after what I want. I’ve found I’ve done quite well at body language and being the high-status person, but not so well in being proactive going after what I want . I need both! (Mental Breakthrough!)
- Congruence is the prerequisite to being cool. When learning new BL or routine, it can look dorky at the outset, and may have to go through a period of being a tryhard.
TONS of great info from Tyler and you’re going to have to get the product for the rest. He was definitely one of the speakers with the greatest volume of good information.
Next up, Cameron Teone (The One) from Fidentia. The word Fidentia is Latin for confidence and boldness, which is what these guys are all about. A lot of his presentation was based on his mASF post “The Freedom to Exist”, which I highly recommend. Basically it’s about being comfortable in my own skin, adding what is useful to my personality and discarding what is not. Most people say they are comfortable with themselves but in actual fact it is very rare. Body language is the first thing to be worked on. Recognize that logic does NOT attract women sexually, but emotion does. This is why as a general rule scientists, computer programmers, and so forth are not ladies men. So I need to release or unlock the emotional and creative side of my brain. The entire seduction process is about changing emotional states.
So stop analyzing and go for this fundamental change: adopt the five core attributes of a successful PUA (not techniques!):
- Non-verbal communication. 55% Body language, 38% voice tonality
- Verbal attributes. How interesting of a person am I? Develop ability to convey this through stories.
- The ability to relate and connect on an emotional level with the woman.
- Living a strong reality.
- Confidence and a strong belief system.
You can read about “The Attributes” at buildattraction.com
The only small criticism I have for Cameron is his diction. In his enthusiasm, some of his words and phrases were hard to decipher. This is something that can be improved with conscious awareness and practice. His information was great and his confidence was very strong, otherwise.
Next, Will from youaresoinmyway.com. It’s a good idea to befriend the bouncers where you go. Do this by getting there early. When I arrive, stop at the door and pan the room. Have a game plan: what type of woman am I looking for? This will set my state properly and help narrow my search. Gave some great tips on using a wing woman. Here are some universal cold reading things you can say to almost any woman with positive results:
- I like how your eyes close when you laugh hard.
- I can tell you are a very passionate person.
- I can tell that you meter your words and think before you speak.
- I can tell you give it your all when something is important to you.
- You are a very sensual person that likes to be touched in just the right way.
- You’re secure; love being a woman; friends would say you’re loyal.
- Very difficult and a pain in the ass sometimes.
- Friends would say you’re nuturing and caring.
Clothing is very important, and shoes are absolutely the number one item you need right. Always use double meanings when talking to women, as it’s extremely effective! Use backhanded compliments. Most women are proud of their work and their ethnic heritage, so these are good things to ask about in comfort to get her talking if you want. Make sure the sex you give her is her best ever; if so, she will put up with a LOT of BS from you. Be the guy with the “fun table” everywhere you go.
Steve Piccus of sexualawakenings.com talked about the necessity of having goals in life if I hope to attain anything. In order to get a deep understanding of women, he modeled lipstick lesbians, and learned all he could about them. Also he took massage classes. Massage can help a woman feel relaxed and intimate. He believes that women absolutely can pick up on the thoughts of men, so I need to feed the happy, positive side of myself and not the jealous, vindictive side. Gave several different eye contact techniques such as “Soul Gazing”, based on ancient rituals. Recommended eating fava beans and reading The Green Pharmacy by James Duke for sexual health. Check out his web site for soon-to-be-released videos on squirting orgasms.
Friday night was the after party at an art studio in Montréal. It was pretty cool. The music, in my 36-year-old opinion, became too loud. Impossible to talk to anyone! I enjoyed the first couple of hours though, before it got too cranked. There was nude body painting and acrobats, and other cool shit.
I brought my girlfriend to the party and this was a huge breakthrough for me! In the past I would have been nervous to intentionally take a hot woman to a location that I new was going to be filled with high-status males, and probably would have avoided it. Mystery, Tyler, Will, David Shade, David DeAngelo, Craiger, Brent, Stephane and many others were all there. I introduced my GF to all of them except for David D. as I he was the only one I did not talk to at the party. I did not do any of the stupid clingy things I would have done in the past, either internally or externally, and I let her free for most of the night. A total mental breakthrough for me!
To be concluded…
Richarddic on 
MarvinHob on 
CharlesHeree on 
Billyquari on 
MarvinHob on 
I Chatted with Style at the Cliff’s List Seminar and he told me that he regarded Ross Jefferies in high esteem and considered him to be the originator of many of the fundemental concepts used sucessfully in the community today. I’m sure this will all come up in his book as well.
With that said, I think every last one of you needs to go out and get laid. What a pathetic bunch of bitchy little girls.
Now, $M, thanks for the confirmation. Many here will be shocked at just WHO comes looking great in Style’s book and who winds up being painted as nutjobs.
The entire community is in for a GIANT SHOCK.
Many who are first, shall be last, and those who are last, shall be made first.
Ninja will wet his diaper. Thundy will burst a zit quiverring with rage. Their will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, I can assure you!
RJ
Ross,
Please tell me that Style trashes Thundercat on his book for the fraud that he is.
There you go again Ross, I mean Paul. Using Style’s fame to bolster your own lack of credibility. Even if you are on TV again and even if you’re described in a favorable light in the book, most people think you’re a flake. Maybe the meds are not working so well and they have you dreaming again that you’re Harry Potter and that you have friends, but in truth even the people who like your material dislike you as a man.
“Now, $M, thanks for the confirmation. Many here will be shocked at just WHO comes looking great in Style’s book and who winds up being painted as nutjobs.”
and from Amy Sohn review:
“what happens when he moves into a Sunset Strip mansion with a group of other PUAs. He starts to see the misogyny of the sport and realizes that most of its leaders had miserable childhoods. The AFC who became a PUA to understand women ultimately becomes an expert on men.As Strauss grows restless to talk about things other than number closes and phase shifts (the book’s glossary is a juicy read of its own), the mansion loses its appeal and he reluctantly grows up.”
A poke in the belly to the RSD folks hhhhmmmm?????
Or maybe a way to avoid seeming like a man who just likes to bang women and doesn’t want to incur the wrath of a couple of soceital pitbulls , the two Fs…the Fundamentalists and the Feminists.
Wouldn’t be good if jerry Falwell had his followers boycot Borders….
Has anyone successfully used the ‘New-Alpha’ method? There isn’t much of a discussion on how effective it is…
Just wondering, if Emery says it’s as good as he does, wouldn’t that imply that everyone should be going mad over it? I mean he did say that the difference between SS and FOS was like the difference between Pong and Playstation 3.
Kevin Thatcher said:
“I’m a student so I’ve only got a limited budget. Where does someone new like me usually spend their dollars first. I dont have time to read all these sites. I need a good beginners summary product. Thanks for any help.”
You may want to check out a product called “emule” it was wrote by an amazing pua and contains loads of seduction information… No really!
i keep on hearing of the incredible connection by style what is it??
I’d like to stay away from all the negative talk and the drama.
However, I’d like to make a correction for our website.
It is http://www.Fidentia.ORG
(it’s not “dot com”)
Thanks
ybatman… why the attack on thundercat… From what i’ve seen about the second editions it seems like a great book.
Oh and about style… Can anyone please explain the incongruity to me!
From all the articles/opinions by him (about him) i’ve read, he seems like the ultimate mature, very direct person with the mentality of a direct person… Infact I’d rather equate him with someone like David X than with someone like the RSD guys… OR MYSTERY… And I mean he’s out there helping out on the mystery workshops and officialy a MM practicioner… yet… I dunno.
Cool guy nonetheless.
Ross Supplicates to Thundercat!
I typed in “Thundercat Lair” in Yahoo search and who is the ONLY sponsor result?
Ross Jeffries’ Speed Seduction Courses! It’s no wonder Ross spends so much time on this site. If you can’t beat them, join them.
very appropriate… Thundercat’s ‘blong.
Ross Jeffries wrote, “Look: anyone who questions my media savvy is just NUTS.
Anyone who doubts it is just uninformed or willfully stupid.”
Well, I must be nuts. The Internet is a “media”, and if the way you conduct yourself here is “savvy” then this must be some definition of the word “savvy” that only you appear to be familiar with.
Ninja:
>Wait you mean like these 2 media articles pissing on you…
Excellent find. Thanks, Ninja.
You know, I actually believed RJ when he said he was media savvy. (I know, sad isn’t it?) But then I read these articles and it’s hard to see how he could be portrayed as any more clueless.
Imagine going to a photo shoot professing that you are a guru of seduction, and then you actually repel a woman who is being paid to be with you. Credibility zero!?!
Ross, I used to think you were just a little overly arrogant, argumentative, and maybe the wrong sort of unconventional. But as time goes on and these details keep coming out, it seems other adjectives like ‘delusional’ may need to be added to the list.
It’s important to tell the ACTUAL TRUTH, not what RJ wants you to think is the truth. Better for you to make up your own mind and your own seduction style which will be as unique as your fingerprint.
Read Ollie’s two posts so you can have a better idea:
Ross, THAT IS THE HEIGHT OF HIPOCRACY!
TC, sue Ross for using your name in his searches the way he threatened to sue if his name was used in Google searches!
Ross, here is what you’re really saying in your recent postings.
I will translate BS Ross speak to every day common words:
(A glimpse into Ross Jeffries’ inner dialog)
Hi everyone I really need you to pay attention to me. I really need all of you to know that I, yes me Paul Ross, is friends with Style. Yes, Style likes me, and so should you. Style likes me and he is my personal freiend and he’s going to include me in his book. So, because Style likes me, I’m worthwhile. Because Style is including me in his book, my work is valid and worth taking seriously. I really need you guys to know and validate that I am friends with Style.
And you know what? Mystery of Mystery Method–he’s really popular in this community too and well respected. And guess what? He likes me too. He uses some of my material, and so because the infamous Mystery uses it, it must also be valid. Mystery likes me too, so therefore you should too.
Okay guys, like me because Style and Mystery like me and my material. I need you to know that those two guys value me, because no one else does. I need you to know that those guys care about me and value me, because so many people hate me. I need you to like me, because I push everyone away. I need you to know that I am weak and pathetic and I am so full of self hatred that I push away all my friends.
(end of the inner dialog of Paul Ross)
Cockblocker,
Wow, you hit the nail on the head with your Ross Jeffries inner dialog post. Of course, he always ends these thoughts with, “I’m Paul Ross and I like myself” while looking into a mirror.
“Ross, THAT IS THE HEIGHT OF HIPOCRACY!
TC, sue Ross for using your name in his searches the way he threatened to sue if his name was used in Google searches!”
What would be pure justice, would be for TC to ban RJ from posting on this website or delete anything he post.
Or would that end the drama and traffic to this website?
“Ross, THAT IS THE HEIGHT OF HIPOCRACY!
TC, sue Ross for using your name in his searches the way he threatened to sue if his name was used in Google searches!”
What would be pure justice, would be for TC to ban RJ from posting on this website or delete anything he post.
Or would that end the drama and traffic to this website?
Just wondering when you guys are gonna get off RJs dick. Are you stalking him too? I think its Weird you spend so much time thinking about one guy. There is a whole world out there. This guys so fired up he posted the same thing twice and I swear Ninja is like on a constant Diatribe. Just imagine if you spent all that time you used thinking about RJ for other more constructive thoughts like how you can get laid and alleviate all that stress you got. After a while you wouldn’t even notice wether he was even alive or not.
I mean.. Don’t you stop to wonder if you’re being just a tad bit obsessive?
ROSS IS THA REALEST, G.
Hey Geese
People are responding because Ross gets on here and blabs all sorts of crap and doesn’t back it up. If you read this board carefully you can see that Ross is out to hang himself. He shows up, acts like real moron, and then sets himself up for a backlash. People rarely initiate complaints about Ross, he is generally the one who starts them.
BWUAHAHA!
cockblocker is david deangelo
David DeAngelo with all his millions and porcshe-s has nothing better than to spend time at this blog… yep… makes sense.
Look: anyone who questions my media savvy is just NUTS. I’ve been on dozens of TV shows since I started in the early 90′s. One thing I know how to do, without question, is handle the media, deliver up what they want ANd get my own message across.
And what does this exposure get you? You’re just a media oddity, a freak they trot out to ridicule so middle america can feel good about themselves
This has had some bit of truth to it in terms of a couple of the magazine interviews that Ross has done in the past . . . where he is portrayed as a middle aged letch . . . however, he’s also had some very good exposure in very mainstream places and seems to have learned a lot in recent years on presentation to better leverage final coverage. I would say that he’s much more savvy about how to present himself to the media now than in the past.
While I would suggest not counting chickens until the eggs are hatched regarding the Prime Time piece as a lot of folks have been burned in the past when it comes to media coverage (for instance the umpteen Penn & Teller Bullshit episodes that have featured folks who thought they were going to be portrayed as the “talking head good guy” when in fact they were the “mark”) . . . we don’t get the program here so I’m hoping some kind soul back in the Beautiful Country (Meiguo = Beautiful+Country = America) will tape it and send it to me.
Ross came off very very well in the Louis Theroux piece on hypnosis and the like in Las Vegas from the BBC while the others interviewed came off as whackjobs and fruitcakes (Marshall Sylver came off very very poorly). Louis expressed concerns about the ethics and power of what he was doing during the walkups (with Ross inside his head via a radio earplug) but Ross really came off as completely congruent in what he does and as very effective.
If you were “media savvy” then why do you continually lose market share?
Where do you get your numbers to determine this? Is there a seduction market forecast blog somewhere where I could see this?
I suspect you are correct that Ross has indeed lost market share in recent years in that the “seduction pie” now has many more “trainers” or “gurus” out there than it had in the past. Naturally, as more folks enter the marketplace, the share for any individual trainer goes down. However, this does not mean that someone’s product is inferior. Nor does it mean that Ross has is losing money compared to when he was more “dominant” in the market (by virtue of being one of the few games in town).
While I for one disagree with statements that Ross is the “father” or “grandfather” or whatever of “seduction” . . . he is not . . . Cassanova and Don Juan and Rudolf Valentino and a whole slew of guys were doing this sort of stuff long before any of the current “masters” were even alive, looooonnnng before . . . besides, when we step past myth and into modern reality, those of us old enough to remember Eric Weber know better (or even Ugly George who really should have a shrine to him somewhere just for sheer balls) . . . but he certainly is the major influence behind the evolution of the contemporary Seduction Community per se. Of course, as the community has grown, so should Ross and his approach . . . and there are vast differences between his current material and what he used to present (well, as far as I can see but then I haven’t seen everything he’s done and can’t quote from memory umpteen million tapes or videos from a multitude of different folks selling this or that . . . when it comes to that sort of thing I’m more of a punter than a professional, I suppose).
Get my $5000 check ready and made out to Ninja’s Fund For Entering the Hottest Clubs and Fucking the Most Desired Chicks.
Last night when John Quinones signed off he said, “next week….Secret Society…. Seduction Community….. BUT how do the women rate them?”
Do you really expect AFC’s to air a positive piece on us when they think what we are doing is tricking women into bed? Don’t call the execs and the producers of PrimetimeLive “scum” Ross, when you vehemently promoted yourself for that show airing next week, have my $5000 check ready.
FUCKKKKK ROSS JEFFRIES THE MUTHAFUKA HE HAS NO GAME AT ALL, ID LIKE TO SEE HIM AGAINST SOME REAL PLAYERS LIKE BRENT AND STEVE THE DEAN WILLIAMS(WWW.DATINGLOVEANDSEX.COM)
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