“Catch Him & Keep Him” Author Responds!
July 6, 2005 by Thundercat
Filed under Drama & Rumors
So there was a bit of controversy a while back about the latest book to be coming out of David DeAngelo Communications called "Catch Him And Keep Him," which seems to be a Double Your Dating type book for women. It ruffled a few feathers of the readers of this site because they felt like David DeAngelo was trying to tell women exactly what to do to combat what he teaches guys to do.
Frankly, I don’t see it that way. And when I contacted the DYD crew about the site, they responded that the author, Christian Carter, was part of the DYD crew and someone completely separate from David DeAngelo.
This, of course, was not believable to MINE’99, who insisted that David D was trying to pull a fast one, that Christian Carter was a made-up name, and that this was some type of "major scandal."
Well, it seems the real Christian Carter has visited the site and didn’t like what he saw. Here’s his response…
Christian Carter writes:
So the truth is a PURELY subjective matter here?
It’s fascinating to see lies become truth and truth become emotional
ammunition here at a group that I would think prides itself of being
above practices like this.Same common issue – different context.
I’m in awe of how I’ve been transformed into another human being by
your desires to "hate" or your fixation on the evil, misdirected and
absurd. I guess it’s more interesting that way though…I’ve gone from myself into David DeAngelo simply through the power
of your thinking and wishing for all the bad things that you fear in
others to be true.Plus, we all like nothing more than to see people who hold
themselves in high-esteem take a topple. (and I imagine there’s also
some childish short-sided financial "gain" that some of you think
you’re getting by espousing your "truth" – or at least you hope your
making sure other people don’t have too much more than you do)Would anyone even think to try and meet me or talk with me? I am a
real human- being that does NOT happen to be David DeAngelo, Eben Pagan
or any other name that would apparently not smell so sweet here.If you’re at Cliff’s Seminar, feel free to ask David about me and who I am.
Actually, I’d like to show up there and talk with to you since you know so much about me.
Then you could tell me all about me.
Hey – and then you could find a way to hate me too.
Seriously – does anyone want to talk, or are you happier living in your version of the world?
Not to be exposed for the idiot he is, MINE’99 spews forth this venomous reply…
MINE’99 writes:
Someone ALLEGING to be "Christian Carter" wrote:
"I’m in awe of how I’ve been transformed into another human being by
your desires to "hate" or your fixation on the evil, misdirected and
absurd. I guess it’s more interesting that way though…I’ve gone from myself into David DeAngelo simply through the power
of your thinking and wishing for all the bad things that you fear in
others to be true."So you are claiming you are the person who authored the Catch Him
And Keep Him ebook? Despite the fact that the writing style is almost
identical to Pagan’s. And you also write the newsletters too..is that
what you are claiming?So Deangelo has NOTHING to do with this, other than lending
marketing expertise, his staff, his money, etc. He gets no profit from
it either.Please…pull the other leg while you are at it.
"Would anyone even think to try and meet me or talk with me? I am a
real human- being that does NOT happen to be David DeAngelo, Eben Pagan
or any other name that would apparently not smell so sweet here."Sure. I’ll meet you. But in the meantime, are you saying YOU
authored the Catch Him And Keep Him ebook? That you write the
newsletters as well?And that DeAngelo/Pagan has nothing to do with the marketing of
this project, even though you were described, by Thundercat, as a DYD
team member.In the final analysis, if you wrote the book at Pagan’s request or
he is involved in the marketing of it, it is still a betrayal of his
DYD customer list. He’s still promoting and marketing a product that
tells women to avoid the men who do the stuff he teaches in the DYD
ebook.Care to respond?
If you’re at Cliff’s Seminar, feel free to ask David about me and who I am.
Actually, I’d like to show up there and talk with to you since you know so much about me.
Then you could tell me all about me.
Hey – and then you could find a way to hate me too.
Seriously – does anyone want to talk, or are you happier living in your version of the world?
To which Christian replies…
Christian Carter writes:
RJ – I don’t know you. Therefore I feel no need to explain myself, my writing and my association with David D.
After reading where you’re coming from on posting board, I’ve
reached the conclusion that you’re not a person I want to spend my time
with or respond or engage with.You’ve deceptively claimed that you know what the book is and
intimated that you’ve read it. Tell me what the name of the first
chapter is? I find you’re knowledge of all this amusing since no one
has seen my book besides my editor and a few women I’ve given advanced
copies to.So say what you want and come to your own conclusions. I’m not going to read or respond to any of your posts in the future.
But thanks for your attention and the publicity/controversy you’re creating.
What’s the deal with MINE’99 and his obsession with this whole thing? I mean, it’s not like this book is COMPETING with him in any way, unless he’s released some product that teaches women how to hypnotize men into relationships, in which case he’s guilty for the exact some thing he’s acusing David D of.
But when it comes down to it, MINE’99′s posts just wreak of petty jealousy and spite. Why anyone would want to learn anything from this man is beyond me, since he seems to have obvious problems and issues a person with "guru" status just simply should not have.
I haven’t read Christian Carter’s book, and I don’t know anything about it. It’s obvious that David D is marketing the book, but the only women who will be buying it/reading it will be lowly ugs who can’t get a guy, so chances are I’m not going to have to deal with any women who’ve read this book. And if they have read it, so what? What’s the worse that could happen? They seduce you into a relationship with them?
Heaven forbid.
AntoniaPhide on 
online on 
WilliamWeple on 
Ehsczl on 
Wsnranexy on 
sorry, please delete the above post.
sexyevil dribbled out “Please like me……….”
Baited and hooked twice in row. Nice.
make 3 times…sweet
Looks like Ray Gordon is back posting under the name Johnny.
Why does someone post here when its clear by blocking his ip address that he isn’t welcome?
Please be a MAN and stop posting. Which mafia are you suing this week?
Leave this site alone!
>make 3 times…sweet
Hey, now you’re getting it. Pure subservience – just the way a girl should be
just like your fat ass mom………….
For some reason I am drawn to Gunwitch…he’s such a nice hairy man!!!!!!!!!!1
Given up on blackmailing women for sex nr3v1?
Well done.
Chuckles The Asshole wrote :
“Given up on blackmailing women for sex nr3v1?
Well done.”
FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!!! read my reports…I am the motherfucking DOMINATOR!!!!!!!!!
Only for the time being nrv31.
Is your freedom in jeopardy because your trying to live up to Gunbitch’s version of being a “man” and you have a huge chip on your shoulder?
Please keep us informed with field reports from the state penn on how you new relationship with your 330lb bull fagot cell-mate Bubba is going.
We’d love to hear about it.
All of the bloggers know that Paul Ross Jeffrey is trying to move attention away from him doing something unseemly, and beneath a “teacher” of seduction, to Deangelo’s girlfriend while David was right in the other room.
Skillful AMOG.
>just like your fat ass mom
That’s it? A worn out lame cliché as your comeback? And you call yourself ‘evil’?
Come on, let’s try again…
Hey, now you’re getting it. Pure subservience – just the way a girl should be
I am still beside myself that people who are supposedly interested in becoming more attractive to hot women (or any women, for starters) are behaving like women.
At this rate, you can expect to be attractive to bulldykes, or gay men. And please forgive me for not meaning that as an insult, but just as a matter of fact.
Can someone please point me to a board where technique is discussed? Because Sydney was partially right – none of this will affect you. Only your reaction to it will affect you and for all you know, the sellers and authors and “gurus” are all in bed together and just keeping you excited.
Couldn’t any of you tell that guys like Ross use NLP in their advertising copy?
“Oh no, not me, I’m too slick to be caught by that NLP stuff. This is about seducing WOMEN!”
Just a bro pulling back a bit of the curtains for other bro’s – even they some of you will slap, kick and bite me because of it.
See, when you’re sleeping, or watching a good movie, a sudden burst of light is disturbing. And what you do next is react, to return to comfort.
That is exactly what this shit is all about. Putting guys to sleep and screwing their wallets by telling them how to put chicks to sleep and screwing their asses.
ZZzzzZzzZZzz…!
Sorry to intrude upon the gossip. I’m heading out to find a technique-oriented discussion. Not to discuss or buy some King of All Wanna-Be’s book.
Freelancer
question: there’s a 7 day free trial but u have to give them ur credit card #….I chose the paypal option but the payment screen pops up…..so aren’t I making a payment? Can someone please explain this to me?
What is wrong with you Winter_Kiss?
Have you never hear of P2P or file sharing networks?
Winter_Kiss,
It’s seven day trial in that you pay for it and if you don’t like it you can return it before your seven days is up.
“Given up on blackmailing women for sex nr3v1?
Well done.”
FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!!! read my reports…I am the motherfucking DOMINATOR!!!!!!!!!
Sure you are, that FR you posted really shows the need for meds. I thought you were in jail, did they let you back out?
Gunny’s not gay, too bad for you.
“Hey, now you’re getting it. Pure subservience – just the way a girl should be”
boring…….Anon
Has anyone in here actually READ catch him keep him or are you all just talking about the couple of newsletters that have been sent out so far? It’s hilarious to hear people debate a product that no one has even read…
and THATS the “Truth”
Freelancer, you may want to check out http://www.fastseduction.com . There is much more actual seduction and technique discussion on there, and that seems to be what you are looking for. Fastseduction.com will give you a discussion board where you can debate seduction……
….and together search for the…..
-Truth
Actually David is trying to do a big favour to his followers by advising the women to change to find wussy men attractive. What next? A book for faggots, “How to attract more men in your life?” A book for faggots by a faggot
“Have a Tootsie Roll” wrote:
“Sure you are, that FR you posted really shows the need for meds. I thought you were in jail, did they let you back out?”
What tell me, are you one of these little pansy fags that sits around all day and listens to Moby and stands on the street corner getting signatures for Greenpeace?
You know, if I saw Moby walking down the street I ‘d pick up the bald headed son of a bitch and toss him in a garbage can head first and watch his little legs kick up as he yelled “Help get me out of here.”
Gunwitch is my man.
I guess we could read it to battle the woman who did, but like he said, the people reading it will be UGs(Ugly Bitches). This book would only serve postive toward DYD(Double Your Dating) readers.
Thank you, “Truth”.
Freelancer
Hey guys I’ve just come across the website http://www.getgorgeousnow.com/special.htm and it looks to be written in very similar style to David DeAngelo’s original website. I guess this section really hit home for me – it was like hey where did I hear that before.
“Let me ask you this: What if this knowledge gives you just ONE great idea or technique for becoming a more attractive woman? Just ONE. What would that be worth to you?
Now ask yourself: What if there’s even a chance that this book can actually teach you how to become more sexy, popular, and confident?
What if you really can learn how to stand out from the crowd, feel your best, and attract the kind of men that you’ve ALWAYS WANTED?
How much would that be worth to you? A thousand dollars? More? For most women I know, it would be priceless.
Just the POSSIBILITY of achieving these goals would be worth the investment. That’s why I personally invested over six months and thousands of dollars to interview these top Hollywood beauty professionals.
I WISH that I would have been able to buy this knowledge, insight, and experience for $29.95 $19.95 when I started. And I know that you’ll be thrilled you made the investment in yourself once you read it.”
So guys any ideas on any connections between the 2 or is it just a coincidence?
I haven’t read the book, but from what I can see from the website it just seems to be a book on how women can get what they want. It shows them how to do that effectively much like dyd.
But what women want isn’t always what men want so there is going to be some conflicts.
David D isn’t going to make a book for women called “if he is cocky and funny have sex with him asap” so just stop crying….stop it
Listen, if it’s at all like “DYD” we can expect a ton of seemingly unrelated research from psychology, medicine, animal behavior, economics and sociology that basically proves the obvious: ‘things that are scarce are more valuable’ and then give the reader a handful of vague tactics to achieve said scarcity.
End of story.
DG
GS wrote:
“So guys any ideas on any connections between the 2 or is it just a coincidence?”
Oh yeah, it’s got David D written all over it. Do the makeover and you’ll find they try to sell you Christian Carter’s book CHAKH.
I’m just surprised the name at the bottom is Sarah Jane and not Sarah Strawberry or Jenna Jane or some other annoying alliteration.
Heh, annoying alliteration, get it?
Sexyevil: “boring”
Hey, thanks for trying again after I asked so politely and all. Your obedience is commendable.
In fact, you’re doing an excellent job all round to hide any AMOG skills you may have. Keep up the good work. A+
Hey Anon
thanks Jobber……
Here’s what I don’t get, the author of this book is Christian Carter, but it was also “Mark Matthews” at one time. Read on…
Copied and Pasted Below From: http://thephilosophyofbeingcool.blogspot.com/2005/03/catch-him-and-keep-him-david-deangelos.html
Anonymous said…
Hey,
Just wanted to chime in here and give a heads up on what’s happening with the David DeAngelo/Mark Matthews “thing”.
I’ve been a friend and worked with David DeAngelo over the last several years as he’s developed his concepts and put them into products. About 10 months ago I began writing content for women and wondered why no one really approached the whole “dating advice for women” area from a similar perspective – that a lot of the issues that women run into with men come from a more fundamental lack of understanding about how attraction works for men… and why women don’t seem to be able to “get” what’s going on for men. (Not that too many men have all that much of a great idea about themselves and how attraction created “attachment” for them or not – IMHO)
So that’s why I started developing content for women… Plus I was constantly talking to women I know and giving them my advice anyhow.
So the skinny is that, while the content is very similar to David DeAngelo, and the site is partially owned by him and there’s all kinds of congruence in male/female psychological truths, it’s not David DeAngelo writing the content just to make more money – as it’s been put forth earlier in this post.
David and I share a lot of ideas in conversation and over email, and it’s obvious that his thoughts and concepts have a real influence on the writing, it’s not David writing the products. It’s me.
The eBook “Catch Him And Keep Him” that I’ve put together will be available in a few weeks for those who remain curious – and I’ll probably end up going with a pen-name for privacy reasons.
Just wanted to let you guys know it wasn’t David D. reaching out to women. He’s got his own way of doing that, I’m sure.
-Mark Matthews
3:25 PM
So, the author of this book has had two different names??? Sounds fishy to me.
>So, the author of this book
>has had two different names???
>Sounds fishy to me.”
He announced a few weeks back that he was changing to a pen name for “privacy” reasons (or something like that).
“thanks Jobber”
Tsk tsk – you forgot the full stop after the word ‘thanks’. But that’s okay, it was obvious who you meant anyway. C-
Thanks. Anon.
your right….
Thanks. Jobber.
What a load of crap.
Look, whether DeAnushole wrote it or not is immaterial.
He’s putting the full weight of his marketing arm into pushing this crap.
Whether DeAnushole drives the car that runs you over or whether he hires someone to do the driving, he’s still ultimately responsible.
“When darkness spreads across the land
And evil gains the upper hand
Against my might they will not stand
For lantern’s power I do command”
RJ
93/93
I wish I had known this before his latest seminar in june ….
He made an interesting coment
” and it will be a long time before women
are in seminars and programs so you guys are
safe ….for a little wile anyways” the adiunce laghed. Would david create product
that goes agenst his products?
I thought he created DYD to help men
how to be more succesful . Women arn’t attracted to guys who give all power away.
An attractive women can get plenty of guys to kiss up to them and thats not what they want
To whoevers envolved in this leave womens
advice up to women
We could say the same thing about your catalog of material.
Ummmm, yeah, I just mentioned that.
Why doesnt somebody read the catchimandkeephim book and do a review so RJ can STFU about it already.
Are you guys complaining because you think David is doing something bad (a subjective assessment at best), or because you’re scared that chicks will start to get one up on you. If it’s the latter, take a look in the mirror for the true source of the problem.
I can think of plenty of businesses that sell to both sides of the “fence”. But I’m struggling to think of many that don’t or can’t do it (lawyers come to mind). What David is doing would be considered normal practice in most other businesses.
For example, my farm buys fertalizer and pesticides from the same local manufacturer that sells it to third-world farmers. These other farmers are rapidly driving the price and ultimately my profitability way down. But if I went to the supplier and complained that he should be loyal to helping local farms only, I would face all sorts of restraint-of-trade and anti-competition laws.
That’s right, there are actual laws that say the ‘disloyalty’ you are complaining about is not only fair, but a commercial right.
Personally, I’d love it if more women were confident and knew what they wanted out of life. There are already too many flakes out that unnessecarily screwing things up. It’s easy to find a 9-10 on the looks scale, but it’s damn hard to find one with a 9-10 personality to match. It makes the thrill of the chase and the win so much better when the woman is the full package.
If you prefer wimpy girls because they’re easier, fine. That’s your lot in life, not David’s problem. But at least admit who has the real issue, because you’ll never get beyond it whinging on this forum about whatever David is up to.
If you think David is disloyal, that’s fine to, so long as you realise that’s just a subjective opinion that goes against the commercial norm.
RJ… “DeAnushole”
I found this really interesting for two reasons.
Firstly, this name mangling is not the remotest bit clever, smart, or witty. It’s the sort of thing my 8 year old boy says when he thinks I can’t hear him. It’s on a par with calling DeAngelo, “David PooPooHead” IMHO. So it basically backfires – or at the very least, risks it.
Secondly, I used to work in marketing and one of the basic things you learn early on with your public communications is to never directly criticise your competition. It’s a tactic that runs a high risk that many consumers will see you and your product more negatively.
You’re seen as possibly having sour grapes, fear of the competition, insecurity with your product, etc. And consumers will mostly discount the message due to your obvious position of bias. This is why at worst the only criticism you’ll most likely see in advertising will be in the form of product comparisons (we have feature X, they don’t; ours works faster; the burgers are better at…).
So I’m at a loss as to why RJ ignores this well founded and tested convention and resorts to consistently to defaming and outright “bashing”, supported only by personal opinion. I’ve wonder whether he is ignorant? Does he lack emotional control? Insecure? Does he just not give a damn – to the point of personal detriment? Or at long shot – is it some form of jealousy.
I don’t really know the answer as to why he does it? But what I am sure about is that these sorts of traits are the very ones that he is supposed be able to teach us to handle when it comes to dealing with women. So why would I want to learn from someone who will teach me to deal with say my insecurity, when he doesn’t appear to be aware (or at least care) that his own public messages could be interpreted to have such deep insecurity.
Note the distinction. I’m not saying RJ is insecure, I’m saying that his messages are readily able to be perceived as showing that trait and many of the others listed above. The interpretation might ultimately be wrong, but isn’t this business all about managing perceptions.
Michael,
How long have you been on the DYD payroll and how much are you paid to flack for DeAnuslube in this and other forums?
RJ
93/93
Thank you, RJ.
That’s another great example of the exact thing I was writing about.
Your reply is simply a very personal attack based purely on speculation. Without at least any basic reasoned argument or supporting evidence, anything you might have to say about me is overshadowed by the intent of how you conduct yourself publicly. Your behaviour is of course entirely your choice, but as a consumer I have the choice to take it into consideration when buying your behavioural-focused products. In fact, it’s hard to ignore.
Even your claim that I work for DYD, although not impossible, is logically-dubious. All I did was consider your motives – I did not directly support DYD. Your poor reasoning therefore mostly serves to highlight your questionable skill and bias. As a potential student I (and others who read this blog) am once again left to wonder if your questionable reasoning is the sort of thing I want to be paying for.
Also interestingly is that I only mentioned DeAngelo in one of my eight paragraphs, yet you made it the sole basis of your reply, and ignored the main issue of my message. While it’s certainly not mandatory for you to defend yourself in anyway, the fact that you made the effort to reply, but only focused on a minor portion of the message leaves open the perception that there may just be something to everything else I wrote.
Finally, the attempt you made at being clever or witty is so thin that it’s almost missed. If basic vitriol and crassness are what you are all about, then you might want to make that clearer in your formal advertising.
So we blog readers are still none the wiser as to how your public persona should instill us with confidence that purchasing your commercial products will be of value.
Of course I realise that I am trying to have a reasoned discussion, while your main tactic is blunt emotive attack. But so long as you keep on supporting my points through your actions, my decision to consider spending money on other products over yours is probably well founded.
Hey RJ,
This Michael R. character is one of the few people I’ve seen who can out mind-line you. I may even venture to say it’s David D. or that Christian Carter dude outdoing you verbally.
Michael R., I clap to your eloquent asskicking of Ross.
I got the newsletter from “Christian Carter.” Exact same writing style as the David DeAngelo newsletters/ products. Same “background,” same teasers, same sentence/ paragraph structure.
Bottom line: Chris Carter (CC) IS DD. It’s just that simple.
I don’t have a problem with him doing this, it’s the dishonesty from a guy who claims to have such a high value for honesty that bothers me.
As somebody who really likes DD’s work, I’m disappointed, but not surprised. Why can’t he just be honest and not hide behind a pseudonym?
SPG >>> Chris Carter (CC) IS DD. It’s just that simple.
Same writing style = same person?
Is this possible? For sure.
Is it definite? No way.
Is it likely? Hmmm, now that seems to come down to personal opinion.
You’re assuming a lot to be making such an absolute statement.
Okay, Anon, and I suppose the Texas Air National Guard memo was genuine, and that the evidence that it was generated using word processing software is a matter of personal opinion.
Again, I don’t have a problem with the book, I don’t think it’s a “betrayal,” except that it calls into question DD’s honesty and integrity.
Given the fact that most (perhaps all) of the Internet Dating Gurus are hucksters just taking advantage of guys’ insecurities, honesty and integrity are essential.
He’s also being dishonest to women, since DD really isn’t qualified to be giving relationship advice. Whose he going to get his advice on “how to keep a man” from, Brent or Rick? David Shade (*shiver*)? Tyler? (Himself?) Gee, what women wouldn’t want a keeper like one of those guys?
Want to learn how to meet women and start relationships? Go to Dave. After that, better find somebody else.
SPG >>> …and I suppose the Texas Air National Guard memo was genuine
Your appeal to this document is of course irrelevant. In this case, one event does not prove or disprove anything about the other.
>>>it calls into question DD’s honesty and integrity.
I never questioned your opinion about DD, so repeating it is pointless. I only queried the evidenced you based your conclusion upon. You stated unequivocally that because the writing styles have similarities then they are definitely the same person. I simply tried to point out that this was not necessarily the case. Personally, I don’t know nor care whether DD is CC, but I do know that similarity in writing styles is not sufficient to be stating without doubt that they are.
You seem to have taken a “possible indication” and stated that it is “definitive proof”. That’s all I was highlighting.
You may ultimately be right about them being the same person, but that has nothing to do with the intent of my original message.
>>>Given the fact that most (perhaps all) of the Internet Dating Gurus are hucksters just taking advantage of guys’ insecurities, honesty and integrity are essential.
Again this is not really relevant, but while I’m here: stereotyping, generalization and emotive language do not make something true.
>>>He’s also being dishonest to women, since DD really isn’t qualified to be giving relationship advice.
You’re still assuming without any doubt that DD is CC. So again this reply and the rest of your message are irrelevant to my message.
Ok, so can we be clear here. My only statement is that having the same writing style is not undeniable, definitive, unequivocal proof that they are the same person. That’s it.
> Firstly, this name mangling is not the
> remotest bit clever, smart, or witty.
I’m sure that particular piece of criticism is going to hurt deeply. At best it’s subjective. And rather irrelevant to your argument. Aside from that, biting witticism is not exactly the hallmark of this site. But I digress..
> Secondly, I used to work in marketing and
> one of the basic things you learn early
> on with your public communications is to
> never directly criticise your
> competition. It’s a tactic that runs a
> high risk that many consumers will see
> you and your product more negatively.
Yes, which is why negative political advertising is so ineffective.
Oh wait. It’s not. On the contrary, it’s stunningly effective. I guess your argument just became an irrelevant piece of fluff. Thank you for playing.
Part of the issue here is the mileau. This is alpha territory where AMOGing your competitors is a valid tactic and there’s a certain psychology and justification for doing so.
> So I’m at a loss as to why RJ ignores
> this well founded and tested convention
Well, there’s a circumstance under which any corporation will do that. When they’ve got more orders than they can handle. I have no insight into whether that’s true in this case but it remains a possibility.
> So why would I want to learn from someone
> who will teach me to deal with say my
> insecurity, when he doesn’t appear to be
> aware (or at least care) that his own
> public messages could be interpreted to
> have such deep insecurity.
RJ isn’t responsible for your interpretation. You are. And criticising an organisation which sells out the customer base upon which its success has been founded seems like a reasonable thing to do. It’s like selling kevlar to the New York Police Department, then turning around and selling armour-piercing bullets to the locals. Legal, but not exactly customer-focused.
> Also interestingly is that I only
> mentioned DeAngelo in one of my eight
> paragraphs, yet you made it the sole
> basis of your reply
Well, I’d say that’s because he figures you’re a shill for DeAngelo. Your ‘argument’ is merely a thinly-disguised personal attack. Since when does speculating on marketing tactics have anything to do with DeAngelo’s essential betrayal of his own customers? What exactly does your own personal dissatisfaction with RJ’s behaviour have to do with the issue we’re discussing?
> Of course I realise that I am trying to
> have a reasoned discussion,
No. You’re not. You’re trying to divert attention from the discussion of DeAngelo’s betrayal of his customer base to RJ’s particular personality traits. In another thread it might be relevant, but in this particular discussion it’s not. I find his presumption that you’re a DeAngelo shill to be reasonable, given the circumstances.
Unlike 99% of the posters on this board, I actually took the time to read Catch Him Keep Him. It doesn’t sound like DeAngelo to me, but of course it’s impossible to be 100% sure. However, the newsletters and website sound a lot like DD wrote them. Anyone else who’s actually READ the book have an opinion?
Cool – someone with some moxie… but questionable competence.
Incision wrote:
>I’m sure that particular piece of
>criticism is going to hurt deeply.
>At best it’s subjective.
So you’re interpreting my observation as an attempt at deep hurt. Hmmm, that’s a subjective interpretation. And according to your stated belief, I’m not responsible for your interpretation. You are.
>And rather irrelevant to your argument.
If Ross chooses to continually exhibit behaviour and competence that could be compared to that of an eight year old, and he wishes to sell behavioural-based products which he claims to characterize, then an example of his behaviour and observations about it are directly relevant.
>Aside from that, biting witticism is
>not exactly the hallmark of this site.
>But I digress..
The majority of people who post comments on this site are not selling behavioural-based products for which their public conduct may influence the purchase of. (Also, see fallacy of ad populum.)
From my casual reading, I would venture that the less-offensive people on this site are generally the sellers (and not the anonymous public) … with at least one exception, of course. So in this respect, Ross may actually stand out.
>Yes, which is why negative political
>advertising is so ineffective.
>Oh wait. It’s not. On the contrary,
>it’s stunningly effective.
>I guess your argument just became
>an irrelevant piece of fluff.
>Thank you for playing.
Guess again. This is not a political race. We are not voting for Ross Jeffries versus other candidates to become a politician. I was very clear that the point of view was specifically from that of a consumer of retail products.
You’re welcome to attempt to reframe my points to any set of incompatible conditions that you like, but you might want to keep in mind that it mostly just serves to highlight your questionable reasoning skills.
If you have any ‘stunningly effective’ relevant examples of crass derogatory advertising in consumer products, I’ll gladly take them into consideration. Otherwise… thank you for playing.
>Part of the issue here is the mileau.
>This is alpha territory where
>AMOGing your competitors is a
>valid tactic and there’s a certain
>psychology and justification for doing so.
Just because others do it, it does not validate it (nor invalidate it), and it certainly does not explain away the potentially negative consequences for a seller. (Fallacy of ad populum again).
Now if you are correct and Ross does do it because lots of other people do it here, and it has a negative effect on potential buyers of his product, then I’m still left to wonder about his lack of business acumen.
>Well, there’s a circumstance under which
>any corporation will do that. When they’ve
>got more orders than they can handle.
>I have no insight into whether that’s
>true in this case but it remains a possibility.
Good point. Like I asked in my original message, ‘does he just not give a damn’ to the point of spiting his own business. In which case, as potential buyers of his products, we may again be left to wonder if that’s the sort of trait we want in behavioural-focused teacher.
>RJ isn’t responsible for your interpretation. You are.
But he is responsible for the consequences to his business of those interpretations… which is the thing I was questioning.
Also, if you’re right and Ross considers himself in no way ‘responsible’ for any widespread ‘potential perception’ of his public communication, and consequently the adverse effect it may have on his business, then he may just be an even worse business person than I originally questioned. That’d be detrimental denial – I could be wrong, but I don’t think that that’s a ‘pattern’ he teaches
>And criticising an organisation which sells
>out the customer base upon which its
>success has been founded seems like
>a reasonable thing to do. It’s like selling
>kevlar to the New York Police Department,
>then turning around and selling armour-
>piercing bullets to the locals. Legal,
>but not exactly customer-focused.
That’s a false analogy. Selling to ‘both sides of the fence’ is definitely not the same as undermining your own products and sales through your public reputation. They may both ultimately have a similar ‘effect’ on a business, but the ’causes’ (and their rationale) are very different.
>Well, I’d say that’s because he
>figures you’re a shill for DeAngelo.
I’m glad you agree he was just guessing.
>Your ‘argument’ is merely a thinly-
>disguised personal attack.
Thank you for your personal interpretation, which I am still not responsible for… especially if it is wrong.
>Since when does speculating on
>marketing tactics have anything to do
>with DeAngelo’s essential betrayal of
>his own customers?
Since when does it have to? You yourself highlighted some of the hallmarks of this site, and specifically staying-on-topic definitely isn’t one that is held to religiously. There’s certainly no rule or law against doing so. Thundercat rarely, if ever, moderates to do so. And most well commented blog entries here have gone off-topic so often that it’s almost a convention to do so.
Also, if you’re so adamant that staying on topic is important, why have you enthusiastically contributed to continuing an off topic discussion? (Hypocrisy?) And why have you not criticised Ross for his off-topic contribution? (Clear bias?)
If Ross feels he has the right to continually make these generally unfounded, derogatory and defamatory comments against many different people, and then rarely backs up what he has to say when questioned, well, it seems we consumers may feel we have the right at some point interject to ask ‘hey, what’s the deal here’.
>What exactly does your own personal
>dissatisfaction with RJ’s behaviour
>have to do with the issue we’re discussing?
Now that’s your interpretation again. And what is your belief about interpretations…?
Let’s make this clear. I am primarily asking why Ross conducts himself the way he does, especially when it seems like it could be detrimental to his commercial standing… but I could ultimately be wrong. There may be an elusive but solid positive reason why he does it that we are not aware of. The potential reasons raised by you aren’t all that compelling, especially compared to some of the alternatives.
>No. You’re not. You’re trying
>to divert attention from the discussion
>of DeAngelo’s betrayal of his customer
>base to RJ’s particular personality traits.
>In another thread it might be relevant,
>but in this particular discussion it’s not.
If my aim was primarily to divert attention, there are significantly easier ways to railroad a thread on to another subject.
I’ve already covered why it’s not forbidden or even unrealistic for others to question someone’s continual provocative posts. If you think my intention was to change the subject, then you have ‘misinterpreted’ my purpose, with notable prejudice. (Based on the focus of your reply, my guess is you’re more concerned with tone and not substance. Whatever the case, false analogies, questionable reasoning, erroneously reframing arguments, poor rationalization, faulty bias, contradicting yourself, hypocrisy, etc. aren’t the attributes of a well thought out reply. In fact, if you were any worse, I’d start to wonder if you were just trolling.)
>I find his presumption that you’re
>a DeAngelo shill to be reasonable,
>given the circumstances.
If you wish to readily presume that I am a ‘shill’ for David based on weak circumstantial and inconclusive evidence, that’s your choice. To do so, you leave me wondering about your basic rational, intellect and motives. Should I be presuming you are somehow linked to Ross? Or better still, should I speculate that you are actually Ross? Whatever the case… you’re hardly incisive
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