Commercialism And Credibility
June 1, 2006 by Thundercat
Filed under Rants & Reviews
Okay, there’s been a lot of talk on this blog about a few things that I want to address, not just about me, but about friends of mine and issues I feel affect the community in general.
And I’m sure it’s gonna get ugly before it gets pretty again…
The subject is one of much controversy lately: Commercialism.
Some look at it as the root of all evil, some hate all involved in it, some just want everything to be free and for no one to ever make any profit off the community – ever.
Okay, fair enough. But let’s have an honest discussion about this stuff here.
First of all, yes, I admit – I’m a commercial guy. Didn’t start off that way, but now I’m into it. I don’t make any bones about it. I sell a book, I belong to commission based affiliate programs, and all that stuff.
In short: I make money off of this site and other sites I run.
NO SURPRISE.
But understand one thing… I have a code I live by. A "moral" code. I’ve always preached that in order to be successful – with anything – you need to have standards and you need to stick to them. You must have rules you set for yourself that YOU FOLLOW, and never break – not once. No exceptions.
Be it with women, work, health, what have you… rules will keep you on the path to success, and you break them at your own peril.
Here are my rules:
1. I do not endorse anything I have not used myself and do not believe in. If you see me recommend a product, seminar, ebook, service, workshop – whatever – on this site, it is because I THINK ITS GOOD. In the end, the only thing I have to go on is what I feel has helped me to grow as a person. I get approached reguarly from various websites want to exchange links, sign me up as an affiliate, get me to run promotions, etc.
I turn 99% of them DOWN.
Simply because I can see in two minutes whether or not they actually have something valuable to contribute to my growth as a human being or not. If they don’t, I pass them by and you NEVER hear about them from me or on this site.
2. I do not claim to be anything I’m not. I don’t walk around singing "I’m the greatest PUA in the world, the other guys suck and stole everything they know from me." I don’t post false field reports, and I don’t claime to be even one of the TOP PUAs.
I’m still learning, just like the rest of you. I feel like I will probably NEVER be a top PUA in the community, and you know what? I’m cool with that – because I don’t want to be a master PUA. I want to be a guy with a great lifestyle who has wonderful women to share it with. I don’t want to have threesomes every night. I want to find one special girl for me. Since I got involved in the community years ago, my life has completely changed for the better, and I’m a much happier man for it.
When it comes to seducing women and getting them into bed the very night you meet them, there are much better guys than me out there. I know a few things, but for the most part, that’s still part of my game I’m working on.
However, I do know how to approach women like nobodies business, and that’s what I teach. Its fun to teach that. Its fun to go out to a club and try something new that works and then teach it to others. I enjoy that stuff.
There have been many opportunities for me to create new products based on stuff I don’t feel I’m qualified to teach, and I have resisted them for that very reason. Not only is this right from a moral standpoint, but if I did try to "fake it" in this community, I’d have my ass handed to me. All the liars and cheats eventually get exposed.
3. I value others who need help and are willing to recieve it. This is my most important rule. For me, going commercial was never about getting rich. It was really about helping others as I help myself. There are LOTS of men out there who need help with women, men who’ve had experiences similar to mine, who I can relate to. But not all of them WANT to be helped. They want to wallow in their misery and complain and stay stuck where they are.
The people who truly want to change are the people I value, and want to help. Having money to advertise helps me to reach them. Having money to go out and meet more women and learn helps me to develop and pass on my knowledge.
I get lots of emails every day from guys who want help, and though I can’t answer them all personally, I try to when I can. And when I can’t, I try to either put up a blog post here concerning the issue, or I create a product to sell.
But make no mistake about it: I do not look at people as dollar signs. I would never sell anything I don’t believe wouldn’t help others. When I was at my lowest, I needed something to give me hope, direction, and take me by the hand to guide me. I do not want to ever be involved in anything that could hurt someone who needs that type of help, and that’s why this rule is very important and close to my heart.
Now that you know where I’m coming from, let’s talk a bit about the Annihilation Method…
I know that the marketing and promotion for that turned a lot of people off. But understand something:
If You Were Turned Off By The Marketing, This Product Was Not For You.
Look, I’ve been a fan of Neil for years. He was the one guy I admired most in the community, before his book ever hit the shelves, before anyone even really knew of him, he was someone I respected and admired for his skills at seduction (all you need to do is read the archives of my blog to know this).
When I had the chance to work with him on the Annihilation Method seminar – I JUMPED AT IT. Like all of you, I’m a constant student, and to have a chance to learn from THE MASTER (I don’t care what anyone says, he’s #1 in my book) was an opportunity I couldn’t pass up.
I was involved with the seminar, and the making of the course, but Style was in charge the whole time. I wasn’t some "puppeteer" pulling the strings behind the scenes. I was there to assist Neil in any way I could, and sometimes he made decisions independently of me that honestly surprised me.
Things like: Giving money to charity.
Things like: Putting on a free seminar for everyone who bought the course.
Things like: Only releasing 375 copies of the Annihilation Method.
But regardless of all that, we both knew that the Annihilation Method was a KILLER course. Its unlike anything this community had ever seen before, or probably ever will see again.
I showed sneak peaks of it to my friends, people like Steve Piccus, Masterclass, The One, and Zan – each and every one of them was amazed by what they saw.
The five guys Neil coached personally saw radically different results with women within ONE DAY of being at the workshop, and their lives haven’t slowed down since. We have a private message board we post on (Neil, me, and the final five) and I’m constantly amazed by their progress.
Understand: Pick-up isn’t just some knowledge base you are entitled to. It is a SKILL SET. you pay to be trained in skill sets.
Want to be a doctor? Spend $100,000 for med school to learn the skills of a doctor. Want to be a lawyer? Spend $100,000 for law school and learn the skills of a lawyer. Want to be a mechanic? Spend the money to be trained like a mechanic.
Can you learn all those skills on your own? Sure! Nothing is stopping you from reading every book you can find on a skill set and applying it yourself. But it is not unreasonable to PAY for training in a skillset.
(After all, you don’t see message boards full of people bitching about how Dr. Wiseman is only teaching his tripple-sutcher technique to people willing to pay him for it.)
And the better the training, the higher the price you have to pay for it. That’s how the world works.
Neil and I knew that people were upset that The Game had exposed a lot of the more common tactics to the public and made them ineffective. That’s why we wanted to limit the number of people who learned the Annihilation Method – to keep the techniques taught in there fresh and effective.
After we sold out on Saturday (and yes, we did sell out, don’t believe all the haters out there), we got slammed by emails from people complaining they couldn’t buy for some reason or another.
If it was all about the money for us, we’d have continued to sell the product over and over and over again, cashing in while the iron was hot and laughing all the way to the bank.
We Did Not Do That.
We sold 375 copies, and that’s it. We will never sell the Annihilation Method again. This is it. Its over and done. We TOLD you guys that, and we stuck to our word. How’s that for credibility?
Neil could have easily made THREE TIMES what he made off the Annihilation Method, but that wasn’t the point. Money is NEVER the point. Money is what comes as a result of your intention. Neil wanted to give something OF VALUE back to the community. He spent 4 years pioneering techniques he gave away for free to the community and what happened?
People took them and cheapened them by selling them as their own (I’m looking at you, RSD). Everyone began using them, and they lost their effectiveness. There was a time you couldn’t step foot on the Sunset Strip here in LA without girls having heard your material 100 times from other guys who DIDN’T KNOW HOW TO USE IT.
We wanted to avoid that with the Annihilation Method. The price point was to limit it to people who had already achieved some measure of success in life (Because Health, Wealth, and Relationships are all connected. Success in one aspect means you can have success in another). It was also to keep it out of the hands of people who would abuse the technology.
Not only that, but look at what you get for $3779 – a MASSIVE training course from the best seducer out there (8 DVDs, 7 CDs, over 1000 pages of text); Free teleseminars where Neil answers your questions; a FREE seminar in November Neil will be putting on out of his own pocket where he will personally work with you on your sticking points.
In my opinion, the course was CHEAP for what you get!
(And keep in mind, knowing Neil, he’s got a few more surprises for the people who bought the course)
Even as we speak, the people in the final 375 must sign CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENTS before they can recieve their course. That’s how commited Neil is to his belief that the Annihilation Method should retain its value.
And you know what? As soon as the course gets out, you’re going to start hearing about what is taught in it, and you’re going to see how people are using it, and it will eventually become a part of the community.
But the difference is: It will be VALUED. And that’s what’s important to us than making billions of dollars.
At the end of the day, when it comes to making money and having credibility, I can sleep well at night. I do not care what other people have to say about me, because you know what? I do not base my self worth on their opinions.
I have moved beyond that. I feel I conduct myself ethically and morally, and I have no qualms about how I do business or how I value my time and knowledge. If you don’t like that, you at least have to respect it.
So for those of you who bitch and moan about my lack of credibility, my "shoddy" marketing, and all the other stuff, I just have this to say to you:
Do not come to my site anymore.
Seriously. If you think I’ve become a joke, why bother with me? Unless you know, deep down, that I’m not a joke, and I’m still worth your time.
So which is it? I’ll leave it to you to decide.
GabrielLew on 
melbet_wrKr on 
GeraldSmata on 
GregoryFah on 
Anthonyelecy on 
If you had marketed the AM like you wrote this post it would have been great. The problem was the constant and blantant lying. Every time I read any marketing material I felt like you were trying to con a retarded child (is that who the product was for?).
Want an example?
When you released the final five interviews you sent out an e-mail stating that you would release something soon. But you were only going to release it to a select few on the e-mail list. Not everyone would get access to it.
Of course when it came out a couple days later it went to the whole e-mail list. It was a blatant lie, you had no intention of restricting it. How could you, by what method could you pick those that were worthy.
I’ve got no problem with commercialism. I like what you post when you aren’t trying to sell anything, like this post. I don’t like your marketing material. It is patronizing and it makes me feel like I would be an idiot to fall for it and buy whatever it is selling. Even if I would have bought it before, after reading your material I would never.
I’m saying this because I want you to be sucessful dude. If you want to sell stuff to people like me you need to stop treating me like an idiot. Speak from your heart, speak like you did in this post.
TC the problem is not whether you are commercial or not. It is which path you choose in being commercial. Did you choose an honest one or a sneaky one.
Personally I found yours sneaky.There was simply to much lies and deception. I think that is what to people of the community is pissed at.
AFC’s who do not know about the community are probably the one who bought the AM. Not the community guys, as seen by your marketing’s targets. So Neil hasnt gave anything back (on this one) to the community, He and You wanted to make some $$$.
But hey theres nothing wrong in it…unless you need lies and deception. But should we be unhappy or angry at someone ? No ! And if such small things like this blog kills your joy, hell you need to work on yourself…
I will miss all the funny flame post thought and I hope Ray Gordon will still teach his new crazy theories.
The Apostate
You have no credibility. At all.
It was blatently obvious to many of us that the AM was a marketing product all along. However your constant breathless references to it and the way in which you tried to portray yourself as independant were insulting in their transparency.
Neil’s credibility is also shot. His mailing list is shown up for what it is. A marketing tool so he can exploit the community he used to be part of. I can tell you exactly what will happen from here on in.
AM is high-priced, low-volume product. Next will be the medium-price, medium-volume product, probably costing around a K.
Then we’ll finally see the low-price, high-volume product, probably around the $200-$300 dollar mark. Neil intends to wring every last dime he can get from that list and YOU are just a shill with no independant objectivity at all.
Both of you have used and lied to the community and this blog has been exposed for what it is. A cynical marketing tool designed to exploit guys in exactly the same way RSD does.
You’re in the shit and you know it. I find it funny that you’ve written 5,000 words of blog entry trying to qualify yourself to us, but we’re done with you. And that fucker Strauss is done as well. Do you two seriously think anyone buys the bullshit about an “experiment”?
I mean, seriously, you pair of idiots open your pitch with “Imagine you’re 83 years old”… do you two seriously think we don’t recognise a poor attempt at time-distortion when we see it?
You’re deleting posts madly because the community has no love for you. And it’s going to stay that way. Five bucks says your traffic has fallen through the floor, no-one wants to be here. This blog is a piece of manipulative fiction designed to bilk as many AFC’s as possible out of their dollars.
You’re a scam, just like RSD. You made your money, you exploited the community. Now kindly fuck off. We have no use for you.
Yes Blade, i also see the medium price/medium volume product coming out next.
The low-price/high volume product is not the end of it though.
Oh no.
This stuff is going to go all the way to mass market paperbacks, getting every last cent out of this.
I unsubscribed from the AM mailinglist after the 2nd email because the marketing back then was already offensive to me.
What really pissed me of though was the way RSD was slandered here. You talk about “Stole” giving to the community…
…exactly what did he give to the community? Some stupid explanation about how you need to do a grounding routine for your jealous gf opener?
Haha and you complain about hordes of people using Stole’s material on the strip? Come on now. That stuff is firstclass excuser material.
The only thing that i’m looking forward to is the release of The Blueprint by Owen. (damnit rsd, u guys should pay me for this
)
TC you just don’t get it do you? It’s not about commercialism but the blatantly dishonest way you’re going about it. DYD was commercial from the very beginning but DeAngelo is well respected in the community. Same goes for Mystery.
I initially enjoyed your site when you provided gossip on the community and articles on events you attended like the DYD masters program. Now you emit a sneaky and dishonest vibe with every post you make. You’re unable to hide your greed and dishonesty with your amateurish marketing methods. Your lies and deceit can be seen from a mile off and it stinks!
Please don’t see this as hating on you. Take it as constructive criticism. You talk about people bringing negativity to your site but have you wondered why SOOOOO many people are totally turned off by your advertising methods?
DYD advertises… Mystery advertises… swinggcat advertises… Why are people not turned off by these guys?
I hardly visit your site these days but whenever I come here it is the same old distastful, sneaky, and dishonest marketing going on. You’re like a cheap unsophisticated scammer. Now you and Style have connived to fleece poor chaps off $4,000. The distasteful thing about all this is we saw this rip-off coming a long time ago through all your lies and dishonesty.
You know why you’re getting so much vitriol here? Nobody likes being taken for a fool. The sneaky ploys in your marketing are so blatant that it looks like you’re taking your readership for mugs!
After reading this post. I have many things that I want to comment on. Here we go:
[quote]1. I do not endorse anything I have not used myself and do not believe in.[/quote]
I trully dont believe this. When you published your Top 10 PUA, some of those in the list claimed that you have not seen their game in a long time. So it was simply an assumption by yourself.
[quote]I do know how to approach women like nobodies business, and that’s what I teach. Its fun to teach that. Its fun to go out to a club and try something new that works and then teach it to others. I enjoy that stuff.[/quote]
I remember Mystery once saying that aproaching and Opening was the easiest thing in the world. It only takes a minute or two and thats it. Even a BAFC can do that. And you know what….he is 100% right. When I first started, I was simply terrified of aproaching. After one night. That was over. I didn´t need any ebooks to do it. All I needed was an opener…and to simply get my nerve to aproach. That was it. So you selling something about aproaching…doesnt really have much value and you selling something when you dont have your OTHER skills at a high level, I believe is really low. When an AFC reads your book. Its subcommunicating that a real PUA is writing this. So even if you dont mentioned that you are a regular AFC. It subcomunicates diffrently.
[quote]Not only is this right from a moral standpoint, but if I did try to “fake it” in this community, I’d have my ass handed to me. All the liars and cheats eventually get exposed.[/quote]
This is what im talking about. I trully feel this is the reason you dont meet anyone to show your skills. By making all these excuses of not meeting people because you dont get anything from it. Is a great way to not get caught.
[quote]This is my most important rule. For me, going commercial was never about getting rich. It was really about helping others as I help myself. There are LOTS of men out there who need help with women, men who’ve had experiences similar to mine, who I can relate to. But not all of them WANT to be helped. They want to wallow in their misery and complain and stay stuck where they are.
The people who truly want to change are the people I value, and want to help. Having money to advertise helps me to reach them. Having money to go out and meet more women and learn helps me to develop and pass on my knowledge.[/quote]
This will explain to you where im coming from. I believe this is simply your mind telling you its ok to charge for “your help”. I run a forum in spanish to help other guys in the Latin Community become good with women. We have a large number of members and EVERYTHING is free. We believe that by charging them for this information which was made by many other men out there who brianstormed ideas and went out in the field like myself and others. Would be a very low thing to do. So we keep that site free and will continue to do so. The community was made for this very reason. For all guys to exchange ideas, become better people, better lovers, To have a choice with women. But to not charge them for ideas that are already in the web. Your product is simply ideas that other people had. And you know that Thundercat. Same thing that RSD did on Style´s and Mystery´s ideas. Changed them a bit and teached them or like in this case. Sold in a E-book.
[quote]If You Were Turned Off By The Marketing, This Product Was Not For You.[/quote]
Now this I agree with you. The reason many guys where turned off by the marketing is simple. Marketing and PU have many things in common. You used scarcity of the product from day one. Claiming Neil was not going to release it at all, Claiming only the 5 guys who where there at the workshop would be the only ones in the world to know of this method. The reason this product was not for us was because we KNOW all these tactics you where pulling. A newbie would eat it all up and that was your target buyers. People who didnt know anything about PU and came in contact to it by Neil´s Book.
[quote]Understand: Pick-up isn’t just some knowledge base you are entitled to. It is a SKILL SET. you pay to be trained in skill sets.[/quote]
This is the mind of someone who goes commercial with this. People who are not selling product believe this is something that they are entitled to. Since many, MANY minds worked together to come up with many of the ground work for this community. It was something for the people. Not only a few guys with cash in their pockets.
[quote]We sold 375 copies, and that’s it. We will never sell the Annihilation Method again. This is it. Its over and done. We TOLD you guys that, and we stuck to our word. How’s that for credibility?[/quote]
We will see about that. If you guys dont come up with any other workshop or seminar or Ebooks or DVDs, ect. Then I will believe in STYLE.
[quote]We wanted to avoid that with the Annihilation Method. The price point was to limit it to people who had already achieved some measure of success in life (Because Health, Wealth, and Relationships are all connected. Success in one aspect means you can have success in another).[/quote]
Again, It really saddens me to listen to this. Make it only available to people with Money. While other guys who are probably in College or right out of High School are not worthy enought? Every Single PUA that I have meet have said they would of given anything to know of this material when they where in High School. Even Style has said this. Yet he doesnt do that. Just a question TC. Say that instead of finding RJ´s course when you where in college, eating Pizza and Jacking off like you said you did. You found an email on the Annahilation Method. With your 20 bucks in your pocket and not much money other than that. How would you of felt knowing that a door that could solve some of your problems with women was there. But you didnt have enought money to afford it. So you continue to live with the dream of having someone.
[quote]Do not come to my site anymore.
Seriously. If you think I’ve become a joke, why bother with me? Unless you know, deep down, that I’m not a joke, and I’m still worth your time.
So which is it? I’ll leave it to you to decide.[/quote]
Again…using comunity based techniques to try and come out on top. If we reply to this post negatively…then you come out as a saint. If we dont post again. No one is here to at least debate issues with you. I find all these responses from you lately really amusing. People where calling you what I believe are simply ruthless things and that I dont agree with. Your post always where Jolly and nice. But suddenly with this Moderation. A who new Josh that no one knew emerged. You stopped sucking up to people and writing like a excited 15 year old and finally posted like a man. With conviction. I gotta give it to you there. Finally the real Josh came out of his shell and posted with Balls.
Thundercat, you are defending the integrity of Style’s product and your marketing strategy. As an experienced player, can you describe some of the ways learning the “Annihilation Method” has improved your game?
Wow, you guys are too much.
Believe this (even though I know you won’t): I DID NOT WRITE ANY OF THE EMAILS FOR NEIL’S PRODUCT.
Seriously, I did not write one word of them.
There was a time when the site Neil was using to share the interviews went down, and he asked me to host the site because the email already went out. So I agreed IF I could share his emails with my blog and my email lists, because I wanted the exclusive.
Up to that point, Neil had planned ONLY to let the people on his list get that info.
We didn’t lie, we just had to adjust what we wanted. I wanted the exclusive for my site and for my customers, and that’s what I got.
Had I known you guys were gonna spend your time bitching, I’d have just moved on and let you guys stay in the dark.
If you hated the marketing so much – ignore it. Move on. There are like 1000 different seduction sites out there you could have gone to that had nothing to do with the Annihilation Method.
Just like the DYD Masters seminar, I felt this was an EVENT, and I was covering it just like I always do.
I don’t think anything Neil said in his emails was a lie. You guys are just projecting your own prejudice and hate here. Lighten up!
Just because you didn’t want to be a part of the Annihilation Method doesn’t mean you’re the majority. A lot of people enjoyed the free interviews, PDF, and other tings. I think Neil gave a lot of value for FREE, but you guys seem to want to paint him (and me by proxy) as a bad guy.
Get those negative thoughts out of your heads and focus on the positive. Dwelling on the negativity you guys have is unhealthy and will not help you.
Thundercat
Oh, and ybatman, you got some SERIOUS issues, bro. Lighten up.
Thundercat
Hey TC, I think ur finally realising that all those posts you deleted flaming you and $trauss were the GENERAL CONSENSUS.
All 200 of them by one person? lol, who are you kidding?
and Blade, Apex,etc have all handed your overweight ass (no offence
) to you on a plate.
Can we please have a blog entry about how unbelievably pathetic $tyle/ Stole looked when he got OWNED by that dutch chat show hostess?
Just so that that poor stupid bastards who bought the AM can see how powerful a jedi $tyle truly is.
Looking forward to the medium and low price product champ.
Hey TC, I think ur finally realising that all those posts you deleted flaming you and $trauss were the GENERAL CONSENSUS.
All 200 of them by one person? lol, who are you kidding?
and Blade, Apex,etc have all handed your overweight ass (no offence
) to you on a plate.
Can we please have a blog entry about how unbelievably pathetic $tyle/ Stole looked when he got OWNED by that dutch chat show hostess?
Just so that that poor stupid bastards who bought the AM can see how powerful a jedi $tyle truly is.
Looking forward to the medium and low price product champ.
Man TC I wasn’t even gonna say anything but i have too.
the thing i don’t like about this is.
1. Style wrote a book about TD using tactics on him and Style turns around and uses marketing tactics (games us) on us.
2. Style took his pdf off of fastseduction.com while every other guru still has theres on it.
3. Style is on TV telling everybody about tactics we use. Then saying how the AM stuff is new and will go unnoticed while some of the other stuff is exposed.
4. you allow guys to bash rsd freely and when they tried to bash Style you deleted some posts.
5. You claim that RSD guys suck but I have seen many great reviews about them. even you gave a good review of them back in the day.
But TC I can understand why you and Style are doing what you’re doing.
You’re bettering your lifestyle at the expense of others if I was you I’d do the same thing.
Tc if you were us you’d feel the same way. TC I do believe the AM is good but the getting on TV and writing a book crap is dumb as shit. People would have bought the AM without Style exposing everyones tactics
Dear Thundercat,
I have to say I am very dissappointed about this whole manipulative attempt to sell the Annihilation Method. I was pretty gullible at first when I received an e-mail blast from Neill Strauss stating that he was going to release audio interviews of attendees from his Annihilation Seminar to a select few folks on his list. The standards were that he was going to send it to people on his list he knew from correspondence or people that would truly use his theory. Neil knows me about as well as Dick Chaney knows where the WMDs are in Iraq (not at all).
To my surprise, I receive this cute e-mail from Mr. Strauss, “insert name-PERSONAL INVITATION FROM NEIL STRAUSS”. I was like “Wow, I made the select few to hear about all these wonderful new ideas. I won the lottery!” Then, the e-mail states
“WARNING WARNING WARNING.
—————————–
My assistant is a techno-superman.
He has installed some sort of code on my
web site that tells exactly how many people
are going there.
As you know, I’m not inviting everyone to
listen in on this.
So – if I see that MORE people go to the
site than I actually invited, I’ll know
that someone leaked it out.
And if that happens, I’ll delete the web
page.
So please, insert name…don’t
share this with anyone.
-Neil”
Obviously all bullshit and then hearing the recordings of these Stu’s talking about “the cube” and all this other Mystery Method stuff, I was so turned off by the whole thing.
If you were going to sell only 375 copies, the money is going to charity and you supposedly had a waiting list, why didn’t you auction them off? The drama was a little much.
Anway, I took my money and spent it on attending a Mystery Method bootcamp with Matador next week.
Maybe he can describe to me this super secret “cube” game (sarcasm). Where’s Maniac HIGH when you need him?
Cheers,
HR
Wow! I’ve been reading all these posts about the AM method, the marketing and the reaction and can’t help but think there are just a bunch of big winey babies on here.
Why do you think that Style owes any of you anything? If your as excited and moved by the community and want to make sure that new material is given out to the masses, why are you posting negative things on a weblog instead of writing new openers, theories and such. I actually feel like he’d given back a lot, free teleconferences, providing free e-mail support to those who send him messages online. How many of you have done anything near that for “the community” you speak about so passionately.
I just don’t get the big uproar. Offended by the price, dont buy the product, offended by the marketing, dont buy the product. I am not offended by Lexus selling a car that costs more than I want to spend, its a product that just doesn’t fit my needs, and so why should these materials be any different?
Quit bitching and just get off your asses if you want to help the community so much. You negative spewing bastards are just proving why some material shouldn’t be given out to everyone.
“First of all, yes, I admit – I’m a commercial guy. Didn’t start off that way, but now I’m into it. I don’t make any bones about it. I sell a book, I belong to commission based affiliate programs, and all that stuff.”
Funny how “I’m here to help” turns into “I gotta eat.” The problem in the internet seduction arena is that Many of the I-gotta-eats built their audiences by being I’m-here-to-helps, i.e., they never would have risen so fast if they had stated from the get-go that they were after money.
“In short: I make money off of this site and other sites I run. NO SURPRISE. But understand one thing… I have a code I live by. A “moral” code. I’ve always preached that in order to be successful – with anything – you need to have standards and you need to stick to them.”
Total bullshit, since in this country many get ahead on things other than merit.
“You must have rules you set for yourself that YOU FOLLOW, and never break – not once. No exceptions. Be it with women, work, health, what have you… rules will keep you on the path to success, and you break them at your own peril.”
This is a general statement. What’s its purpose?
“1. I do not endorse anything I have not used myself and do not believe in. If you see me recommend a product, seminar, ebook, service, workshop – whatever – on this site, it is because I THINK ITS GOOD. In the end, the only thing I have to go on is what I feel has helped me to grow as a person. I get approached reguarly from various websites want to exchange links, sign me up as an affiliate, get me to run promotions, etc.”
Okay, that makes Thundercat a COMPENSATED ENDORSER. Literally. He is PAID to promote various seduction products. He is not like a newspaper that does not discriminate among its advertiser class. This is relevant because a compensated endorser is not an advertising platform for anyone other than those who are compensating him. If he chooses to be a compensated endorser, there is a definite conflict of interest when it comes to reviewing competing products. If he were simply a magazine, he’d have a rate card and wouldn’t be allowed to refuse advertising to reduce competition. It’s also more profitable for him to sell more expensive products. My stuff costs $19.95 and includes free lifetime upgrades. He can say he doesn’t believe in the product, but as a compensated endorser for a rival product, he would be conflicted by that. This applies to all the people he turns down, who his audience will never hear from, because he is a compensated endorser for the sites you see promoted.
“I turn 99% of them DOWN. Simply because I can see in two minutes whether or not they actually have something valuable to contribute to my growth as a human being or not. If they don’t, I pass them by and you NEVER hear about them from me or on this site.”
How can this judgment be made in two minutes? How can it be considered objective by someone who is already a compensated endorser of rival products?
“I do not claim to be anything I’m not.”
How seriously would the media have taken your top 10 PUA list if it had known that you’d wind up doing marketing for the guys ranked #1 and #2? (Mystery renounced his position for this reason if you hadn’t noticed).
“I’m still learning, just like the rest of you. I feel like I will probably NEVER be a top PUA in the community, and you know what? I’m cool with that – because I don’t want to be a master PUA. I want to be a guy with a great lifestyle who has wonderful women to share it with. I don’t want to have threesomes every night. I want to find one special girl for me.”
While selling methods that supposedly could get her to cheat on you or dump you?
“Since I got involved in the community years ago, my life has completely changed for the better, and I’m a much happier man for it. When it comes to seducing women and getting them into bed the very night you meet them, there are much better guys than me out there. I know a few things, but for the most part, that’s still part of my game I’m working on.”
Is that “one special girl” immune to all this? Why is it an AFC’s girlfriend feels no need to hide, yet the women who fuck the “better” PUAs go postal if word gets out?
“However, I do know how to approach women like nobodies business, and that’s what I teach. Its fun to teach that. Its fun to go out to a club and try something new that works and then teach it to others. I enjoy that stuff. There have been many opportunities for me to create new products based on stuff I don’t feel I’m qualified to teach, and I have resisted them for that very reason. Not only is this right from a moral standpoint, but if I did try to “fake it” in this community, I’d have my ass handed to me. All the liars and cheats eventually get exposed.”
So the best man always wins and everyone lives happily ever after? Anyone here remember “Simon The Likeable?”
“3. I value others who need help and are willing to recieve it. This is my most important rule. For me, going commercial was never about getting rich. It was really about helping others as I help myself. There are LOTS of men out there who need help with women, men who’ve had experiences similar to mine, who I can relate to. But not all of them WANT to be helped. They want to wallow in their misery and complain and stay stuck where they are.”
Wow, another six-figure helper (someone who claims they are only in it to help others but who manages to make bank doing it). Kinda like the guy who isn’t into looks but keeps dating 9-10s because he loves their personalities.
“The people who truly want to change are the people I value, and want to help. Having money to advertise helps me to reach them. Having money to go out and meet more women and learn helps me to develop and pass on my knowledge.”
True game is not dependent on money.
“I get lots of emails every day from guys who want help, and though I can’t answer them all personally, I try to when I can. And when I can’t, I try to either put up a blog post here concerning the issue, or I create a product to sell. But make no mistake about it: I do not look at people as dollar signs. I would never sell anything I don’t believe wouldn’t help others.”
That makes him a compensated endorser, not an advertising platform or true marketplace, and it creates a conflict with regard to his reviews of any products, just like it would if one had Jessica Simpson ranking pizza, since she’s paid by one of them already.
“I know that the marketing and promotion for that turned a lot of people off. But understand something: If You Were Turned Off By The Marketing, This Product Was Not For You.”
Shitty argument, since one could justify selling anything with it. “If you don’t want it, don’t buy it” is obvious but could easily apply to any level of quality.
“Look, I’ve been a fan of Neil for years. He was the one guy I admired most in the community, before his book ever hit the shelves, before anyone even really knew of him, he was someone I respected and admired for his skills at seduction (all you need to do is read the archives of my blog to know this).”
He was already famous and rather well-off at that time. It’s amazing how popular that makes someone. That he was a writer with mainstream connections didn’t hurt either.
“When I had the chance to work with him on the Annihilation Method seminar – I JUMPED AT IT. Like all of you, I’m a constant student, and to have a chance to learn from THE MASTER (I don’t care what anyone says, he’s #1 in my book) was an opportunity I couldn’t pass up.”
Ranked #1 by a guy who wound up making money off him. CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
“I was involved with the seminar, and the making of the course, but Style was in charge the whole time. I wasn’t some “puppeteer” pulling the strings behind the scenes. I was there to assist Neil in any way I could, and sometimes he made decisions independently of me that honestly surprised me.”
He sounds like an NFL coach describing the fourth quarter of a playoff game now.
“Things like: Giving money to charity.”
How much, and to which?
“Things like: Putting on a free seminar for everyone who bought the course.”
Because seminars can’t be pirated.
“Things like: Only releasing 375 copies of the Annihilation Method.”
Artificially low supply.
“But regardless of all that, we both knew that the Annihilation Method was a KILLER course. Its unlike anything this community had ever seen before, or probably ever will see again.”
And those who don’t see it have no way of knowing one way or another. Thundercat is a compensated endorser, which means he gives up being an objetive reviewer.
“I showed sneak peaks of it to my friends, people like Steve Piccus, Masterclass, The One, and Zan – each and every one of them was amazed by what they saw.”
Piccus is on the product.
“The five guys Neil coached personally saw radically different results with women within ONE DAY of being at the workshop, and their lives haven’t slowed down since. We have a private message board we post on (Neil, me, and the final five) and I’m constantly amazed by their progress.”
Those five men were rather wealthy. Chicks like men with money.
“Understand: Pick-up isn’t just some knowledge base you are entitled to. It is a SKILL SET. you pay to be trained in skill sets.”
Message boards were originally designed as places where people didn’t have to pay.
“Want to be a doctor? Spend $100,000 for med school to learn the skills of a doctor. Want to be a lawyer? Spend $100,000 for law school and learn the skills of a lawyer. Want to be a mechanic? Spend the money to be trained like a mechanic.”
Those trainers are generally certified by state boards. This field is unregulated.
“Can you learn all those skills on your own? Sure! Nothing is stopping you from reading every book you can find on a skill set and applying it yourself. But it is not unreasonable to PAY for training in a skillset.”
Actually, when you restrict advertising to those for whom you are a compensated endorser, you are stopping the public from learning about all the commercial stuff out there. If it’s good that others want to help the same people you want to help, why curtail their ability to communicate with those who need them?
You’re not afraid of some competition that’s 99.5 percent less expensive, are you? Don’t try to review the competition either, because compensated endorsers are not objective.
“(After all, you don’t see message boards full of people bitching about how Dr. Wiseman is only teaching his tripple-sutcher technique to people willing to pay him for it.)”
You mean “suture?”
“And the better the training, the higher the price you have to pay for it. That’s how the world works.”
He’s equating the price of a product with its quality now. In advertising they call that “snob appeal.”
“Neil and I knew that people were upset that The Game had exposed a lot of the more common tactics to the public and made them ineffective.”
So when I said GAME OVER I was right? Funny how before all this, everyone said the opposite.
“That’s why we wanted to limit the number of people who learned the Annihilation Method – to keep the techniques taught in there fresh and effective.”
Then why talk about it AT ALL to the public now? Why not go underground with it? How is this relevant to anyone but the “Final 375?”
“After we sold out on Saturday (and yes, we did sell out, don’t believe all the haters out there), we got slammed by emails from people complaining they couldn’t buy for some reason or another.”
If this method sold that many copies that quickly at that price, it is an internet marketing record. It’s not that it couldn’t have happened, but the idea that it did is counterintuitive at the least. Many who demand proof are those who want to believe it did happen, because it would have implications for many forms of e-commerce, in many industries.
“If it was all about the money for us, we’d have continued to sell the product over and over and over again, cashing in while the iron was hot and laughing all the way to the bank.”
If it weren’t about the money, it wouldn’t have been priced so high.
“We Did Not Do That. We sold 375 copies, and that’s it. We will never sell the Annihilation Method again. This is it. Its over and done. We TOLD you guys that, and we stuck to our word. How’s that for credibility?”
Never isn’t resolved in two weeks. Also, if the method is never being sold again, and he wants to keep it fresh, why keep talking about it? There is no congruency in that.
“Neil could have easily made THREE TIMES what he made off the Annihilation Method, but that wasn’t the point. Money is NEVER the point. Money is what comes as a result of your intention. Neil wanted to give something OF VALUE back to the community. He spent 4 years pioneering techniques he gave away for free to the community and what happened?”
Neil didn’t give away the techniques in The Game; he was paid to write the book by HarperCollins, and was very well compensated.
“People took them and cheapened them by selling them as their own Everyone began using them, and they lost their effectiveness. There was a time you couldn’t step foot on the Sunset Strip here in LA without girls having heard your material 100 times from other guys who DIDN’T KNOW HOW TO USE IT.”
Neil is the guy who “forgot” where the pivot came from (hint: I have copyrights that prove it was me). He had no difficulty attributing other stuff, that’s for sure. Regardless of why this happened, I know what it’s like to see my own stuff proliferate. Being the only guy who knew how to use pivots for over a decade gave me a tremendous edge.
“We wanted to avoid that with the Annihilation Method. The price point was to limit it to people who had already achieved some measure of success in life (Because Health, Wealth, and Relationships are all connected.”
Neil is not a health counselor (they call those MDs or some other alphabet soup). When “wealth and relationships” are connected, they call that golddigging or prostitution, and being VERY AFC. It is GAME when the guy manages to get the “relationship” without the “wealth.”
“Success in one aspect means you can have success in another). It was also to keep it out of the hands of people who would abuse the technology.”
Political pickup?
“Not only that, but look at what you get for $3779 – a MASSIVE training course from the best seducer out there (8 DVDs, 7 CDs, over 1000 pages of text); Free teleseminars where Neil answers your questions; a FREE seminar in November Neil will be putting on out of his own pocket where he will personally work with you on your sticking points.”
375 guys at one seminar? How much individual attention is possible?
“In my opinion, the course was CHEAP for what you get!”
Thundercat is a compensated endorser.
“(And keep in mind, knowing Neil, he’s got a few more surprises for the people who bought the course)”
How is this relevant to the public?
“Even as we speak, the people in the final 375 must sign CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENTS before they can recieve their course. That’s how commited Neil is to his belief that the Annihilation Method should retain its value.”
Good luck enforcing those on the internet.
“And you know what? As soon as the course gets out, you’re going to start hearing about what is taught in it, and you’re going to see how people are using it, and it will eventually become a part of the community. But the difference is: It will be VALUED. And that’s what’s important to us than making billions of dollars.”
I released my stuff initially just to set the record straight. I saw AFC guys getting played left and right, and had developed a system of defeating that (pivoting was just one part of it). At the time, there were very few books of this kind. One reason I leave my free material up is to educate as many men as possible about it so that women can’t play them.
“At the end of the day, when it comes to making money and having credibility, I can sleep well at night. I do not care what other people have to say about me, because you know what? I do not base my self worth on their opinions.”
Others don’t base their judgment of you on your self-assessment, either.
“I have moved beyond that. I feel I conduct myself ethically and morally, and I have no qualms about how I do business or how I value my time and knowledge. If you don’t like that, you at least have to respect it. So for those of you who bitch and moan about my lack of credibility, my “shoddy” marketing, and all the other stuff, I just have this to say to you: Do not come to my site anymore.”
How interesting: you say it’s your mission to protect the public with regard to other products, yet tell others who might do the same thing to not bother.
“Seriously. If you think I’ve become a joke, why bother with me? Unless you know, deep down, that I’m not a joke, and I’m still worth your time.”
People obsess over me even more, so I must be worth even more.
Ray, you’re an old-school flamer, probably got your start on USENET in the 80s? Pre-kibo and everything. It’s been a while since I saw a good spelling nitpick (suture). What ever happened with that 545 challenge?
Anyway, to the point at hand, anyone have any links/posts/videos of microcalibration in action? That sounds like a lot of fun.
I’m a sweaty geek….am I in the right place???
Neil could have easily made THREE TIMES what he made off the Annihilation Method, but that wasn’t the point. Money is NEVER the point. Money is what comes as a result of your intention. Neil wanted to give something OF VALUE back to the community. He spent 4 years pioneering techniques he gave away for free to the community and what happened?
People took them and cheapened them by selling them as their own (I’m looking at you, RSD). Everyone began using them, and they lost their effectiveness. There was a time you couldn’t step foot on the Sunset Strip here in LA without girls having heard your material 100 times from other guys who DIDN’T KNOW
HOW TO USE IT.
——————————————–
If Neil had set a much higher stock, it wouldn’t have the scarcity effect only 375 copies did.
He probably wouldn’t have sold AM so fast as he did.
Making $5 million don’t have the impact of making a million in a few hours.
He said in an email the events surrounding AM were part of an experiment he was doing, and the
book he is about to release would clarify everything.
So, making the highest amount of money is REALLY not the point with AM, the point is Neil’s financial strategy he will outline in his upcoming book about how to make money.
The problem of people stealing his pioneering techniques is not because they were FREE
he could have been stolen even if he had charged for them.
the fact that he was posting in a private forum made it easier for them to be stolen,
because those ideas weren’t widely known
Effectiveness decreasing with the amount of people having the knowledge is false
if it were true, and mystery method went mainstream pretty hard, mystery would have to come out with
another method because M3 would lose its power. it’s absurd.
what really lose effectiveness is the ROUTINES, the CANNED MATERIAL, not the method itself
I’m pretty sure that when Style saw that HIS material was only being reproduced by the masses
of wannabee PUAs (that really didn’t understood the MECHANICS of what made the routines work), he
came up with new routines, not NEW PRINCIPLES.
and if Neil really thought that seduction knowledge should be kept within a limited number of
people, or at least, at a not-so-fast growing number of people, why did he release a book about it that
would be widely promoted by the media?
Neil knows that true Game won’t be affected by the number of people knowing it.
It won’t be like “shit, now chicks know we will use humor to seduce them! they will point at us and
say: “ha, trying to make me comfortable and establish a connection with me, aren’t ya? you loser”
David Deangelo can come up with a product that will be MIND-BLOWING with a limited stock
and in the end, the product is not that amazing and the stock never ends
people won’t get mad at him…they will just brush it off as marketing…he IS a marketer…he doesn’t
hide the fact that he is there to SELL
he didn’t come up saying…”hey, I developed this super product that I taught only 5 guys
but I DON’T PLAN IN RELEASING IT” (what?? making publicity for something you don’t want to sell?)
and then…”hey, the FINAL 5 GAVE ME THE IDEA OF SELLING THE DVDs, it was THEIR IDEA” (oh, REALLY???)
I think the problem with AM’s marketing is that it insulted our intelligence
Neil wanted to sell something from the beginning, but didn’t admit it, and the whole time it was obvious
people are comparing marketing with pickup…so what Neil did was like a NiceGuy staring at a woman’s breasts, while pretending the whole time he was there for the friendship
the woman was SURE of what he wanted, so just thought of him as a pussy
I got all the same marketing newsletters from Neil as everyone else.
I understood that some of his statements weren’t true, like the example Harrison Rockwoode mentions above that Neil “was going to release audio interviews of attendees from his Annihilation Seminar to a select few folks on his list.” I assumed that was not true as soon as I read it. I didn’t worry for a second that I wouldn’t get the interviews because I assumed everyone would get them, in contrast to what he said.
But I didn’t feel insulted by it. I just figured it was a value/exclusivity/scarcity creation technique.
Whatever.
It didn’t ruin my day. I didn’t even cry, not even for a little bit.
(I DID catch a small animal to take my anger out on, but that’s another story.)
The seduction community — more than any other person, institution or set of ideas — has significantly improved my life, not just with women, my whole life.
I’ve been in it for over 4 years. My biggest revelations came either in the field or from PRODUCTS I BOUGHT (& only once in a while from free material I came across — though I did read quite a bit of freely available material). I know I can get most seduction products for free on file-sharing networks, but I have no problem paying the creators/packagers/marketers who have given me something of value.
My reality & mindset has shifted massively from where it was before I found the community.
I knew the Annihilation Method was going to be expensive. If it is as mind-shifting & reality-shifting as the marketing promises, it is easily worth the $3799, especially with such limited distribution*. But I still wasn’t going to buy it, because what if it didn’t meet its promises. That was a lot of money to be out.
But when Neil took the financial risk on himself by offering a money-back guarantee, what did I have to lose.
If it does not meet my expectations, I will return it.
I won’t be angry, or sad.
I will know I took a chance on something, and it didn’t work out. The monetary risk is negligible.
I will go on with life.
*(I know eventually the ideas in the Annihilation Method will get out & that some file sharing networks have purchased it.)
Hey, thank goodness I’m not the only one who felt like the AM build up was treating me like an idiot. Well, first some ranting, then stick around to the end when I reveal one of the Annihilation Method tactics for the price of a book.
I still don’t really see what “The Game” gave away. There are no pick-up secrets in there that everybody didn’t already know anyway.
But back to the topic at hand. Every email I get from Style drops his credibility a little further. Which is unfortunate since I had mad respect for him after reading the game.
People have addressed quite a few things already, but here are a couple more:
1) Style said when he was in Europe he was accused of building-up for his next book, but there was no book! Well, aside from the recent “revelation” that the AM story is a book idea, the very first e-mail I got on the list mentioned looking for volunteers for another book idea. So in other words, blatant lies.
2) I suspect Style’s methods are very similar to his marketing techniques. If that’s the case, no wonder they didn’t work when he met a quality woman. He was treating women like idiots, and they were buying it because most of them had never seen it before.
3) As far as Thundercat’s “exclusive,” nope sorry, saw it on other lists.
Okay, now for the AM tactic. I saw the cube mentioned a few times. I would explain it, but you can just go to Amazon.com and buy a treatise on the subject which is probably where it came from to begin with:
“Secrets of the Cube”
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786882573/sr=8-1/qid=1149238950/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-0324176-7985634?%5Fencoding=UTF8
And now I’m away to spend time with women which is what this was originally all about to beginn with.
I just want all u peckers to know this: I bought Ross Jeffries “How to get the women you desire into bed with you” in 1990 after hearing him speak on poorman’s KROQ radio show. Since then I have read almost every DECENT seduction product out there. All of RJ’s stuff, sexual key, mystery method, swinggcat, most of david d’s stuff, in10se, toecutter, tyler durden’s posts, style’s stuff. And i’m decent looking…and oh yeah, i’m a young doctor.
You know what? I still suck major ASS when it comes to pulling chix.
“You know what? I still suck major ASS when it comes to pulling chix”
It’s OK, thundercat has even been trained personally by these “PUGs” and he still sucks major ass ($tole’s ass to be precise)when it comes to pulling.
He gave up on it and eventually became a sweaty, bare faced lying money grubbing con man.
roger, reading isn’t enough. You absolutely have to practice.
“It’s OK, thundercat has even been trained personally by these “PUGs” and he still sucks major ass ($tole’s ass to be precise)when it comes to pulling.”
That’s impossible. Thundercat has been trained in Annihilation Method — he’s a personal friend of Style who invited it. According to Style, learning this method you can steal chicks off PUA gurus. How could style not be pulling chicks with this powerful tool in his aresenal.
“How could style not be pulling chicks with this powerful tool in his aresenal.”
I mean Thundercat.
TC, please stop lying that Neil sold “only” 375 copies. You and I both know Neil sold AT LEAST 650something copies that day alone!
(P.S. I won’t be surprised if the actual total copies sold exceeded 1000.)
(P.P.S. If you want others to stop hating on you, PLEASE stop lying so much.)
And another thing – it’d be funny if all those ppl who bought the AM would see the Dutch TV interview featuring Style… WOW! You call THAT a “Guru?”
It went something like:
Dutch TV Hostess: “So come on, Neil… pretend you’re going to pick me up…”
Neil: “Awww, man…! I can’t do this…!”
This went on for a good 3 minutes. Style kept giving excuses why he won’t get up on his chair to demo pick up.
It was really embarassing to see someone who sold a DVD program for nearly 4K can’t muster up the courage to “pretend” he’s demo’ing pick-up.
Tsk… tsk…
I can’t get my head around the fact that there are *at least* 375 people with soo much disposable income. For crying out loud just how bad does it have to get to be throwing around that kind of money, there is more than enough stuff out there for free, even on here, all it takes is to grow a pair & try shit out.
It really shouldn’t be any more difficult than that, should it?
In response to Mischief (C. Powles): I think the emotion is a result of Style becoming a literary character (the hero of the game who emerged from the dark forest with wisdom to share)whom people have identified with. Blame the power of good writing! That, and because as you said:
“The seduction community — more than any other person, institution or set of ideas — has significantly improved my life, not just with women, my whole life.”
And people want to know what Style has learned without having to take out a mortgage.
Can anyone please suggest other forums that are now worth visiting?
In all due respect I think this one has run it’s course.
To make money of the same magnitude as Style and Thundercat using the same principles check:
http://smartmoneyguide.blogspot.com
Thundy!!!
You’re the greatest!
I have no shame! I’d do it for the money . . . seriously. There’s nothing wrong with doing business and helping the consumer realize you have something very valuable to offer.
You’d be hurting people if you didn’t help them understand that they could possibly possess a great product.
Sometimes people need to be convinced to do something for their own good, and Neil touting his product, or you promoting a product, or something you do is only to your benefit and the benefit of the consumer.
Sometimes you have to promote yourself . . . if no on else says you’re good when you are good at what you do, who is going to get the word out? And I will say though that I prefer a product that generates enough buzz for itself that marketing / promoting / advertising . . . completely takes care of itself.
Isn’t it great how life works out?
Cheers!
Vega
whoah
The flamers have gone and now the sooks have taken over
Thundercat, do what you will. Good luck to you and Neill. Rock on free enterprise. Has anyone really been hurt in this process? So what if Neill spins a bit of bullshit, the product is quality and if the consumer wants to pay $4k well then let them.
For those who don’t have the cash or don’t want to spend the cash, get on masf and read some archives.
Said PontifexMaximus:
“there is more than enough stuff out there for free, even on here, all it takes is to grow a pair & try shit out.”
well there you go. Now go find a box of tissues and wipe your snotty noses
Vega I second that
Personally, I’m holding on to my 4K until double-super secret nuclear annihilation method comes out.
“So please, don’t
***share this with anyone.”***
I think this was on the first AM advertising emails. TC its not the fact that you are making a ton of money that makes us mad, its the fact that you tried to fool us with the same techniches we use to nail bitches (inluding crappy NLP). You really thought you could trick us?
Here is the dilemma with commercialism in the community and why it is such a big deal:
Can you really fully trust someone that is making profit off this stuff when there is so much money to be made off it?
With so many people out there trying to sell products and almost all of them claiming only they are right, how do you know who to trust?
Here is my problem with this whole commercialism thing and the AM:
It was blown up way out of proportion to the point where it stretched the lines of reality. When Neil sent out the info he made it sound like they were magic techniques that would make anyone fall in bed with them. Anyone who has had a good amount of field experience knows that it doesn’t matter how good of techniques you have, it’s more about the kind of person you are. More importantly you need lots of in field experience to build up good calibration. Even Neil didn’t become a guru in a week. It took him a LOT of hours out in the field doing stuff over and over again.
In case it slipped your mind or it never got to you, I sent you a private e-mail about this in a very concerned manner, of which you never replied. Because the truth is I really am concerned for all of those starry eyed newbies out there trying to live in Neil’s shadow.
What are you going to tell them when they go out to try out these new techniques and get blown out the first several dozen to maybe even several hundred times?
Are you going to be there for them and give them words of consolation, reassuring them that it really will take them a while before they really get the hang of this?
Are you going to tell them that they also need to be more socially competent, and work on their inner game?
Or are you just going to sell them more products giving them techniques #2377-2400? (giving them a never ending supply of techniques)
Oh by the way I also see something interesting happening in the community. It seems there is beginning to be a class separation. Aka: Those who have money learn to be successful with women, while those who don’t get shafted. Even you are starting to go with that it seems:
“The price point was to limit it to people who had already achieved some measure of success in life (Because Health, Wealth, and Relationships are all connected. Success in one aspect means you can have success in another).” – Thudercat
I don’t believe this because it’s only 50% true. I know naturals that are poor as shit, but let me tell you if you let one of these guys loose in a room full of women they will have girls all over them. I also know guys that are really rich but are totally wbafc guys that cannot maintain relationships, nor get a girl if their life depended on it. Guys use money as a crutch, take it away things become very interesting.
Sorry if this sounds like a rant, it isn’t. Also this isn’t an attack on you TC, I just felt the need to express myself.
-Whiplash
There’s a term for what Style has done with the Game and I believe now with AM… Everyone is focused on that fact that the marketing used for AM being the main reason for the discontentment with how he markets as if we’re idiots, but if you step back and look at what Style really did is what’s called “Parasite Marketing”. Which is taught in marketing classes, but it’s basically when you align yourself with a brand and claim to be an expert in it, and say that long enough and people will believe it, so people then come to you to learn it. Which is exactly what he did with Mystery Method. He came up with a few lines and talked about some of his successes and all of a sudden he’s a God and the best there is. He basically created a huge amount of trust in the Community for the ethics he claimed to have but then took it and trashed it with the way he marketed this latest program. People still say that it will be a quality program and they have no idea what’s in it. Bind Trust! Style basically hijacked Mystery’s Brand name, built up enough trust and then experimented with the community to see if he could sell a program which costs more than any other program ever released in the community without anything to go on.
Another thing is that I really don’t believe that in this community there are that many guys who have that kind of disposable income to throw away…I might be wrong but I really don’t think so.
And also to add to that DutchTV segment…. Style completely backed down from a challenge to demo his knowledge in a low pressure environment (DutchTV not Oprah Winfrey) and he barely could do it, infact all he did was recite the first few words that MM teaches. And he’s a Pickup God selling a product for 4k each?
Back in the day when Ross use to go on Talk shows, you could not talk Ross out of a challenge, YOU COULDN’T! He would jump off the stage with 100 people infront of him take a girl aside who wasn’t buying it and he would go to work on her. That’s someone who believes in his product.
This isn’t a flame post, just trying to provide a higher level perspective to a couple of these issues.
And I really believe that all this charity stuff and moderated posts on this list is all damage control, realizing what a backlash you can have when you take the community for a bunch a fools. If the charity thing was true, why not say that upfront, do you think you would have gotten less sales? In fact I think it would have helped sales, because the guys who have that kind of disposable cash would have known they were giving to a good cause. There are so many inconsistencies and contradictions that others have mentioned as well it’s mind-blowing… Please FIRE THE MARKETING TEAM.
It all reminds me of watching Old Navy commercials, I sit there and think “WTF were they thinking? What a crappy advertising agency!”
Oh yeah, and what do you mean if you’re turned off by the marketing, then this product was not for you. When you insult people you get backlash. THAT’S THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS.
From Thundercat:
>>>>“The price point was to limit it to people who had already achieved some measure of success in life (Because Health, Wealth, and Relationships are all connected. Success in one aspect means you can have success in another).” – Thudercat>>>
From Whiplash:
“I don’t believe this because it’s only 50% true. I know naturals that are poor as shit, but let me tell you if you let one of these guys loose in a room full of women they will have girls all over them. I also know guys that are really rich but are totally wbafc guys that cannot maintain relationships, nor get a girl if their life depended on it. Guys use money as a crutch, take it away things become very interesting.”
The reason you’ve seen the money-as-game movement develop is twofold: 1) rich guys have the most money to spend and 2) they are the easiest to teach “game” to because they already have all the game they’ll ever need. When “wealth” and “relationships” are connected (health is usually a function of wealth as well due to access to medical care), they call that “golddigging” or “prostitution.”
Why did this happen? Simple: there was no way the community could sustain the LIE that money and looks and status don’t dominate the mating game, so they try to justify connecting the three by reciting AFC bullshit about how having money is a sign of having one’s shit together (at Enron it was a sign of theft, for example).
The gurus use student money to “fund their game” and the students don’t seem to care.
I saw that Dutch tv segment too and I WAS surprised that Neil wasn’t better prepared. He doesn’t really look bad, but he had to know some interviewer sometime would try to put him on the spot. But being in a long term relationship does change your psychology on a deep level that messes with your game.
There’s alot more to MM and The AM than just marketing. The fact is he really did accomplish something in breaking down group dynamics and attraction the way he did. That’s not just marketing. And his stuff works. Plus you have to hand it to Neil he innovated alot of cool stuff (classic opinion openers, Style’s EV, Best Friends Test, FTC, etc.) and, if you read the pdf of his collected mASF posts (it’s floating around somewhere) you can see that he’s a changed man in only a couple of years. So all of that is not just marketing.
“I saw that Dutch tv segment too and I WAS surprised that Neil wasn’t better prepared. He doesn’t really look bad, but he had to know some interviewer sometime would try to put him on the spot. But being in a long term relationship does change your psychology on a deep level that messes with your game.”
I saw that segment also. There’s been a fair critcism/challenge to Style’s credibility that has been circulating. If Style was getting laid in Hollywood like nodody’s business, why haven’t any of the would-be starlets that he must have seduced come forward to describe what its like to be seduced by a genuine Pick Up Guru? Now he steps up with this crazy Annihilation Method thing. Makes me wonder if the whole community isn’t a smoke-and-mirrors trick.
“I saw that [Dutch TV] segment also. There’s been a fair critcism/challenge to Style’s credibility that has been circulating. If Style was getting laid in Hollywood like nodody’s business, why haven’t any of the would-be starlets that he must have seduced come forward to describe what its like to be seduced by a genuine Pick Up Guru?”
I’m the one who raised that question, and I think it’s a legitimate one. Maybe he did fuck 800 women or whatever, but in the book, he made his conquests out to be the stereotypical power-hungry social-climber that you find in LA, and said there were many of them. The implication was that they were super-hot as well (he did mention one centerfold but I’m not sure he specified the month).
As a reason for tearing up all their numbers when he met Lisa, he said that his previous conquests more or less fit this stereotype.
It is my belief that any man who has done all of this should expect his exes to find their way onto the talk show circuit for their 15 minutes of fame.
Either the exes weren’t as hot, numerous, or power hungry as would lead to a situation like that (obviously, since the situatio didn’t materialize).
Kind of reminds me of the service-business adage:
1. Price
2. Quality
3. Delivery time
CHOOSE ANY TWO.
Style used Cialdini type principles to inflate the price of the product. The price has no relation whatsoever to the real value of the product. They used the unethical marketing to create a perception that was far removed from reality. It is like an illusion. Maybe Style has been learning some magic from Mystery.
Remember the people who bought this product are looking for a magic bullet. Style and TC zeroed into this market of desperate vulnerable men who have a lot of disposable cash lying around but suck with women. These men are willing to throw money at problems hoping the money will solve their problem instead of having to do the work themselves. What styles does not tell them is that there is no such product around. Using social proof from Mystery, scarcity and many other unethical tools of influence, Style inflated the price of the AM to astronomical proportions to con these vulnerable lads out of money. In fact Style and TC are no different from scammers!
The people who purchased the product will only find out they were mugged a couple of months from now when the wonderful, magic bullet, changes they envisioned must happen (after shelling out all that money) does not materialise.
“If You Were Turned Off By The Marketing, This Product Was Not For You.” How do you figure that? Was the product itself very commercial is method?
If you wanted to give back to the community, you could have chosen the 375 in a very different way.
Instead you inundated us with flashy emails that I just started deleting. I’m interested in the product, but not in the flashy shit.
KNOW THIS. People all over abhor your site and the drama and the commercialism. They come back, because it’s a hug of news. There’s not really a good alternative, so they stay with what they have. They just hate the presentation style.
You can either use that info to improve or go on doing what you’re doing. There will ALWAYS be people who will buy into it.
After all this mess, this thread, and epesode, is over. Reputations have been exchanges for cash. And the rate is 100%. It doesn’t matter how long this blog lasts. The reputations of these two are gone.
TC, in spite of your excuses to the contrary, so many people have already expressed my sentiments about the blatantly manipulative/borderline unethical AM ploy you guys pulled a couple of weeks ago, that I will just say this:
You and Style are both greedy pieces of shit.
If Style was half a man, he’d get on this blog and respond to some of these posts himself. But then he’d have to take time off of trying to develop new manipulative techniques to get gullible newbies to part with their cash.
You can both go to hell.
$TOLE IS quite literally half a man. I second that vegas, the money grabbing turd and TC the fat bastard can go to hell.
This board is fucking shit.
FUCK U ASSHOLES
I’ve been a lurker in the community for about 8 months. I’ve attended a David D seminar and purchases a couple of the well known ebooks. I’ve read “The Game”. I am by no means an expert at this, but am committed to getting better.
I by no means am wealthy, but also have no problem in making an investment in something that can help my improve myself (Done a David D’ Seminar, Anthony Robbins’ 3 day live seminar, some of Bill Glazer’s stuff (if you are big into marketing you’ll know that name) and a couple non community others).
I am one of those that purchased AM and am very pleased with the product. I am not in a position where I can say I can afford it, but the potential outcome is worth and I figure I’ll make a way of making it work.
I don’t get all the anger over this (other than potentially sour grapes). We are a capitalist society. That allows us the ultimate vote. If you don’t like the marketing, the product, the author, etc., then simply do not buy the product.
As one who purchased and received the product, I can say the content is worth it and as a result I’m already finding not only my game improving but other aspects of my life as well.
Neil and TC, on a side note I have to say I loved the marketing behind this and thought it was brilliant. Just a few weeks back I was listening to a CD from Bill Glazer and he talked about the importance of using strong expirations and have to say that this was probably the best I’ve seen. I looked forward to each eamil even after I decided I was going to purchase, simply so I could see how the rest of the marketing plan would unfold. Congrats on a job well done!
To those of you with all the pent up anger over this I advice either a yoga or kickboxing class so you can let out some of your frustrations (you’ll probably also find that if you do that your game will get better also).
I feel for ya’ man. If I laid down $4000. for this rediculous fleeesing I’d be out there saying it’s great too. I could have pointed you to 2 or 3 products out there that are time tested, and the best there is. Cost for them all… ablot $100. For my 4-grand, I’d put a new kitchen in my house.
“I’ve been a lurker in the community for about 8 months. I’ve attended a David D seminar and purchases a couple of the well known ebooks. I’ve read “The Game”. I am by no means an expert at this, but am committed to getting better.”
KEY WORDS: “by no means an expert.” Pickup advice customers are “commercial HBs” in that they are in the same place as consumers that the HB is in a bar: he’s being approached by men who want his “body” (money), and he can be nice and narcissistic, because the gurus will overlook it to get his money. With the HB, it’s “I’m hot and I’ll fuck any guy I want!” and with the customers it’s “It’s my money and I’ll spend it any way I want.” No problem with either sentiment, but it has nothing to do with expertise.
“I by no means am wealthy, but also have no problem in making an investment in something that can help my improve myself (Done a David D’ Seminar, Anthony Robbins’ 3 day live seminar, some of Bill Glazer’s stuff (if you are big into marketing you’ll know that name) and a couple non community others).”
Many who think of themselves as “not wealthy” don’t understand that they are often better off than the large majority of others.
“I am one of those that purchased AM and am very pleased with the product.”
Not wealthy, but has four grand to toss around. Right.
“I am not in a position where I can say I can afford it, but the potential outcome is worth and I figure I’ll make a way of making it work. I don’t get all the anger over this (other than potentially sour grapes). We are a capitalist society. That allows us the ultimate vote. If you don’t like the marketing, the product, the author, etc., then simply do not buy the product.”
Funny how people who say this about four-figure products often wind up ballistic at the notion of someone else charging a lot less and being “capitalist” themselves.
Is it “don’t get worked up over guys in this business” or “don’t get worked up over ______________ being in this business?”
I mean, my stuff’s $20.00, about 0.5 percent of what you just spent. Logically, you’d be expanding your knowledge for very little extra investment. Same could be said for many other products.
How does the enthusiasm die down so quickly for something that isn’t so costly?
“As one who purchased and received the product, I can say the content is worth it and as a result I’m already finding not only my game improving but other aspects of my life as well.”
Got specifics? Or is this more INTERNET PROPS!!!
You’re “by no means an expert” yet now you know what is helping your game or not?
Got specifics? I teach chess, for example. I can show you my chessgames or even play chess directly against you to prove myself. Chessplayers have ratings, which objectively measure their performance.
You have internet props.
“Neil and TC, on a side note I have to say I loved the marketing behind this and thought it was brilliant. Just a few weeks back I was listening to a CD from Bill Glazer and he talked about the importance of using strong expirations and have to say that this was probably the best I’ve seen. I looked forward to each eamil even after I decided I was going to purchase, simply so I could see how the rest of the marketing plan would unfold. Congrats on a job well done!”
Will you feel the same way when others market their stuff, or is the “love” only reserved for one guru? If so, why?
“To those of you with all the pent up anger over this I advice either a yoga or kickboxing class so you can let out some of your frustrations (you’ll probably also find that if you do that your game will get better also).”
To those who talk like this but then get “pent up anger” when SOMEONE ELSE is in the marketplace, I suggest a course in being consistent.