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Mystery On “ASF Philosophy”

August 31, 2005 by  
Filed under Rants & Reviews

In my post called "Where ASF Philosophy Went Wrong," I talked about how I don’t agree with the Fake It ’till you Make It mentality.  Well, it seems the world’s most well known pick-up artist Mystery doesn’t agree!  He wrote a rather long and well-thought out counter argument which I thought deserved it’s own thread.

Mystery writes:

I respectfully disagree. Id also like to point out that the logic
presented is irrational – a common error those who do not adopt the
scientific method may make. If you dont already see the break in logic
then read The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, chapter 17: The Balony
Detection Kit. Read it and find out for yourself why the above post is
‘absurd’.

Let me take a moment, as a PUA who everyone knows smokes all others
(open challenges to all as usual – Im slotted to challenge the winner
of the Hypnotica vs. Formhandle match when they have time to schedule a
get together – all for fun), to explain INDIRECT and FAKE IT TIL YOU
MAKE IT.

First, on to indirect.

The indirect approach has little to do with inner game and handling fear. Either way, direct or indirect, we fear the approach.

the reason we go in indirect is so that we do not convey interest in
the target and have her friends cockblock and protect her from you. the
idea is to FIRST demonstrate a higher value (DHV) BEFORE we IOI. Just
walking up and talking DIRECTLY to the target is an IOI. the friends
feel threatened and pull her away. Using the indirect approach has
little to do with confidence. its not an inner game tactic but instead
a massively field tested tactical OUTER GAME concept. You initiate a
chat with the entire group (not just to the target) while NEGGING the
target to DISARM the friends from thinking you are an immediate
potential suitor (you dont know who the boyfriend is or who the brother
is – afterall we use indirect approach tactics on GROUPS of people -
hardly a COWARDLY action). Negging the target to disarm the others buys
you time to DHV in front of the target. The DHV spikes in your stories
will not appear to be BRAGGART in nature this way because you already
disqualified yourself before the target or her friends start to. In
fact, its so counter-intuitive, I understand how certain PUA wannabes
who dont interact with other PUAs (Stephane as I recall was the odd
anti-social barefoot and no shirt guy at the LA DYD seminar – while
everyone else wore clothes appropriately for a seminar – whats the word
for negative peacocking? clowning?) will lock themselves out of
adopting massively field tested principles. Indirect isnt easy. But one
thing is certain (as a man to DEMONSTRATES it in field duirng bootcamp
- and yes, as usual, I was successful in getting #s every night in
front of my students — and on last night’s occasion … um, more),
INDIRECT approach game delivers the fucking goods.

Perhaps Stephane and I can compare girls, current or historic. Who’s
girls are hotter. Who’s had more hot girls. Who can captivate a group
and befriend others. Perhaps we can compare our leadership social
circles. But before we do this, why not SEE who these people look like
in front of others.

Perhaps you will watch the difference between Stephane and I
speaking in front of 130 people and cameras if you see us both speak on
the Cliff’s List Seminar DVD. Decide for yourself. You can train in the
direct approach (which limits you to approach SINGLES only) and look
like Stephane or train in the indirect approach and peacocking aside,
look like Mystery.

I believe the indirect approach is far more versatile because it
allows you to approach large groups, with men in them (women of beauty
are rarely found alone – especially supermodels) and DHV BEFORE you IOI.

There are 3 attraction switches that make must be triggered in order to DHV:

1. proof you are pre-selected by other women
2. proof you are the leader of men
3. proof you protect and defend your loved ones and are loyal to them

If you can convey this BEFORE you give IOIs then you will GET IOIs before you GIVE THEM.

attraction must occur BEFORE she will want to build comfort with
you. Imagine how easy it is to build comfort with a girl if she is
attracted to you FIRST.

DIRECT = singles only = hope the confidence in going direct is enough to build attraction = fool’s mate
INDIRECT = great for groups and women of PARTICULAR BEAUTY (you HAVE
seen my ex-gfs right?) = befriend the friends FIRST and be given the
opportunity to repeatedly trigger the 3 attraction switches that ALL
TRIBAL LEADERS trigger and then give IOIs only AFTER you get them from
the girl.

To decide for yourself which is right for you, watch the Cliff’s
List DVD and judge for yourself. Which principle builds a more
charismatic personality?

The barefoot and shirtless thing didnt exactly work to build rapport
with anyone but that doesnt mean it doesnt have its place. If I were
singing in front of 60,000 perhaps it would work – in fact, I plan on
doing this in the future. But doing that and bringing a half naked girl
(which may have worked if her objective replication value were perhaps
higher – no disrespect to her Im sure she’s a great girl despite her
bloated pelvis – but it was in THAT particular social scenario – um,
fuckin’ weird dude haa) only alienates. Certainly I brought my GF too,
but I kept her dressed and we brought our puppy so people could see she
and I were easily approachable. You dont want to alienate the very
people you are trying to help afterall. group dynamics include
conducting seminars too. Maybe those at the LA DYD event or Montreal
event will speak up and offer their first person accounts on meeting
Stephane (or seeing how people avoided him) and I.

We are here to survive and replicate. to S & R. sure we want to
get the girls S&R value to improve our chances. yes we want
something from her (S&R value). but wouldnt it just make more sense
to NOT go for her value and try to take take take (direct) and instead
give give give by demonstrating higher value to her and her friends
FIRST? Its ultimately the woman’s choice. if she sees your value FIRST,
then she will try to align with YOU. add in NEGs to disqualify yourself
from being a potential suitor at the begining and you not only keep
your approach form looking like you WANT SOMETHING (like a beggar) from
HER, but you structure the challenge for her to attempt to win YOUR
S&R value for HER.

Im a proponent of INDIRECT GROUP APPROACH THEORY because it clearly
delivers the goods. So is Style – who Thundercat rated as #1 in the
community. And Toecutter. And TD. The guys who are publically known for
being good all use indirect group theory. not because they are scared
for sure. but because it solves real world infield problems. Is it a
coincidence that the best PUAs use indirect? Is it a coincidence that
the best PUAs dont alienate and maike others avoid them? Is it a
coincidence that ALL our girls have a higher R value?

I would like Stephane to see that indirect solves more problems
infield … or rather, it keeps problems from even appearing … like
alienating the friends, telegraphing too much interest on a 10 who gets
all the attention she needs, making 100s of people avoid you or want to
meet you, and building a rep as a guy who hits on every girl (to go
direct is to give IOIs right away – if she shoots you down because you
havent DHV’d first anyways, you get a bad reputation and lower your
chances of proving you are pre-selected when those girls tell their
peers they said no to you).

do I use direct? certainly. on singles. but only after I have worked
an adjacent set in an effort to prove I am pre-selected. See, opening
one set and then another and merging them together triggers
pre-selection and build a jealousy plotline. why do we need this? well,
a woman may not KNOW she is attracted until she is surprised to find
out she is jealousy and FEELS the surprising fear of potential loss of
you to another girl. The J-plotline is injected into C1, the first
phase of the comfort building stage usually (or C2 is you cant merge
sets due to lack of targets in a given environment).

As for the FAKE IT TIL YOU MAKE IT thing, again, the logic fallacy
is appropriately found in The Balony Detection Kit chapter of Sagan’s
book. I live in a world of "ACT AS IF …"

I act as IF Im a ladies man. And guess what. If you arent a ladies
man but you act as IF you are (and trigger the pre-selection attraction
switch by having women from previous sets on your arms or having
stories with pre-selection triggering DHV spikes embedded into those
stories), then they will assume you ARE a ladies man and will treat you
like one – by trying to align with you and get some of that S&R
value all those girls hanging around you prove you must have. It helps
(trust me).

Im now going to act as IF … Im hungry. Yoshinoya I dont care what
you say kicks ass. oooh one BETTER! Thundercat Im in LA. Im hankering
for a steak. Im gonna call you now.

Love !Mystery

I guess I’ll just have to agree to disagree with Mystery on this one.  (by the way, still waiting for your call, Mystery)

Get Your Free Guide Here!

Comments

4,365 Responses to “Mystery On “ASF Philosophy””
  1. Jason says:

    “do I use direct? certainly. on singles. but only after I have worked an adjacent set in an effort to prove I am pre-selected.”

    Examples of how you open direct?

  2. blah blah says:

    Examples of how you open direct?

    in cliff’s list seminar

    Erik: “You know! You really suck!”
    Girl: “What? Why?”
    Erik: “Because you walked by me earlier and you didn’t say hi”

  3. Sponge Roll says:

    To quote you Ray:

    “People here said that those who flame are insecure betas, and they obviously are. All they do with their flames is admit they were defeated in the debate.”

    So by your own definition you’re an insecure beta.

  4. tingly1 says:

    Ray Gordon wrote: “I act AS IF any woman who would give the time of day to a player is a slut not worth having or even acknowledging.”

    This is GENIUS. Period.

    Ray, good job man. And good shit. Keep it coming.

    What is the link for your free ebooks? And shit, just so you know, I’ll be buying a copy of any paid products you got going right now too. You’ve earned my respect.

    Hit me up.

    tingly1

  5. Ray uses many Ids says:

    Don’t be fooled, he uses many id’s….like tingly1…no one want his stuff…if they do, then they like rejection.
    King of Rejection

    Him Again
    you still looking for underage kids Ray?
    like gymnast’s….HAHAHAHA
    Oh…bet you want to sue me now…Does everyone know he is suing just about everyone cause they disagree with him????

  6. Pimperonni says:

    Fuck, I told myself I was gonna stay away from this site and push myself out there… but I’m broke until friday, and no homework, cuz it was the first day of school… :-)
    so, please, enjoy my presence while you still have the chance… B-)

    I think I have an idea of something that’s going on these last few days, but I won’t say right now…

    So… on to my point…

    Quick history trivia…

    Eric Weber
    Ross Jeffries; ARTHUR Gordon

    these were the old schoolers,
    The first “seduction” related book I read was Arthur Gordon wrote the books “How to Get all the Girls You Want” I and II

    The original version of Book I was written circa 1989-1990. And came out around 1990 or 1991. I had a printed version of Book1.

    Mystery wrote: “…1. proof you are pre-selected by other women”

    Ray Gordon wrote:
    “You mean like with PIVOTING? Gee, that was in my *1998* book.”

    but, aaahh… it was written in ARTHUR Gordon’s book as well, and this came out in ’90-’91… it’s called “bitch club bitch sydrome” dusting the cob-webs is easy on this one… it says that if a guy walks into a social setting, like a club or party and he is:
    A) alone: girls will notice him and feel attracted but wait for him to approach

    B) with an attractive girl: they will be more interested, and probably even try to get his attention.

    in book two he goes on to tell a story or two of how he used this technique.

    So it looks like you’re claiming this technique as something you made up, yet it is clearly taught in a book that was written almost a decade before you admit to writing yours…

    on his website A. Gordon says that if someone is claiming his techniques as his own the person who reports it to him can get $5,000. So it sounds like a prospect eh?

  7. Pimperonni says:

    tingly1:

    Ray Gordon wrote: “I act AS IF any woman who would give the time of day to a player is a slut not worth having or even acknowledging.”

    This is GENIUS. Period.”

    -that sounds like player hating to me. Why in the world should every guy use this-when some of us aren’t bitter, jealous, or manipulators? If it’s real game you shouldn’t have another man’s name coming out your mouth as a means to you getting sex.

    “He’s just using you, he probably says that to all the girls, dadada” < -- example of a player hater.

    There is also talk of
    this stuff getting out into the world
    and some kind of social evolution taking place instantly. This is the basis of Ray Gordon's posts on here lately... and I would bet it was his fantasy that probably was him awhile back posting about the same things...

    -Watch blind date a few times and you will hear straight from a girl's mouth: "I tend to go for guys who are players..." and she won't have any shame about it, so no need to change her sexual preference to hide something...

    -Kung fu has been around for a long ass time man, has that made street fighters any better? In fact, the UFC has been showing fights with martial arts that work in real life for years now, on tv. And the UFC will always be more popular than style's book- on sheer exposure...

    I recently started studying mixed martial arts... if I go upside some asshole's head 1 time... does that mean he's going to beat his next opponent up? What if he watches the ufc too? That should really up his understanding... right? So now everybody should be better fighters then since some people have gotten their asses kicked by martial artists and boxers, and it's on T.V. and we all know it's out there, and we can all go use it... right?

    I mean, there's even schools TRYING TO BRING IN STUDENTS, all over the place man.

    So if a girl sees players on tv, does that mean she will now know all of their game? I don't really know how to box like a pro - but I've been watching the super stars for years...

    If a lot of guys read this book "The Game", does that mean they'll all become players? There's a few hundred million people in this country... how many does it take for a majority of them to 'learn this game enough for everybody to be affected by it"? 10 million? 50 million? 100,000?

    ...
    Ray Gordon:
    " Wow, he's tooling another guy."

    I agree that he was, and thought it was kinda fucked up about the girlfriend comment...
    but um... aren't you tooling Mystery with your whole post? Actually in almost all of them. He's a guy... so I guess whatever was implied to be bad about him tooling a guy is true about... you too.

    There is also a *subtle* hint of jealousy. Well, about as subtle as a sewer's smell.
    I felt like I was reading a real life "Single White Female" I wouldn't want to meet you in a strip club either... or even at a police convention...

    your fixation on Mystery is quite disturbing sir, indeed.

    and, Ray also wrote this little hint:

    "I buried this neg on my website without pointing to it so someone has to dig through all my pages to find it, but it's killer"

    now it sounds like you're GAMING on guys by trying to hint at what's on your site all slyly, and how they'll have to read sooo much of it to find the "killer" neg that's sooo worth it... if not it's at least an attempted MAN-ipulation [:-(>) if you ask me.

  8. Pimperonni says:

    I just remembered that this is my last chance to use this computer until I get a new one in awhile…plus I really did get sucked into this site the last two days.
    but,

    Ray Gordon:
    “If there is ONE key to seduction, it’s knowing what the fuck to do with a woman once you get her into bed.”
    -this is also in how to get all the girls you want book 2 in the chapter titled “rock that bottom” (just pointing that 1 out for fun though)

    what I didn’t say ealier, was I guess it’s kind of fair for Ray to come on here and spout his b.s. in a way, IF noone can debunk the myths and show where he’s wrong.

    I understand where some guys above were coming from with the harsh words for him, but I just wanted to make sure to stick to the issues before somebody new goes crazy and starts to believe something he says. As somebody stated, he’s talking theory here, and I don’t wanna know if it’s true in his experience, cuz I don’t wanna be a hater,

    and I certainly don’t wanna hear about his herpes… that was a lil too much info. but best of wishes on that one though, but…

    Is THAT why you make it such a point to try to antagonize us?

    Were you Elvis Preston? Tingly1? Foxhunter(sp)? the guy who flamed sponge roll but coincidentally(?) mis-spelled the word “the” at least three times? Johnny? Ross Jeffries? okay, that last one was a joke.

    What is your malfunction?

    Why don’t you just start your own community for your ‘theories’?
    Why do you have so much input on this one?

    it reminds me of this quote from a Stephan King book, it was this lady saying something like:
    “Are you a bad man? Do you enjoy trying to hurt other people?”

    can we just be done with this guy’s shite now and move on to flaming each other again? We never argue anymore guys… I’m worried *sniffle* lol

    take care and hopefully Star Jones doesn’t make us all into her manservants after the book comes out. I’m fuckin’ done!

    -Pimperonni

  9. Pimperonni says:

    look man, you said all people could do was flame you because they couldn’t debate… so now I’m… hating on you? What do you have for me to hate on? An STD? Lord forbid I ever get one, but I wouldn’t blame an online community for it… at most I would be pissed at the condom makers or scientists for not finding a cure…

    I only saw the part of your post that I was “hating” on you… I don’t give a red monkey’s ass what else you said

    YOU are THE troll little mASF’ers heard stories about when before bed. I just decided to point out some reasons why nobody should listen to you…

    you did say that the guys Mystery teaches are LOSERS… why should one of these “LOSERS” wanna listen to an…

    ANGRY MAN who has been at this shit for years… and still hasn’t gotten enough of trying to DE-RAIL a group of guys who are trying to better their lives.

    You need to let this shit go.

    I honestly believe the part about the S.T.D. and I think that this is your attempt at getting revenge on a community that you blame for giving you the info that lead to the S.T.D.
    ok, I looked at the rest of what you said and you didn’t create “PIVOTING” unless you call renaming something “creating”

    shit… I’ll re-create thinking… I’ll call it, mind bubbles…

    I’m not “beta” (did you make THAT up too?)
    I just had to call you on this bull shit. I don’t go in for all the “alpha, beta” when I was little that was a damn grocery store. If I had to defend myself against some guy, I would.

    And in this instance, my goal is to be a ladies’ man, not a men’s man. And I don’t kiss women’s asses, I don’t agree with shit they say to avoid trouble, I don’t tell them my age if I don’t want to, i don’t tell them what I ‘do’. The only times I was at a strip club, a female friend was the one spending the money because I don’t believe in giving a woman shit just for a chance to get a whiff of some jiff.

    You can try to skate around the things I said, but all I saw was you trying to accuse me of being a beta. oooww. Please give credit to the other Mr. Gordon for your “piveting” idea, and did you make up the term “negs”?

    you’re a genius man, feel free to email me anytime
    pimperonni@getalife.com

    Well, Johnny,foxhunter,tingly1, that guy who mis-spelled ‘the’, Ray, Elvis, whoever the hell you are…

    just let it all go, exhale… maybe even while you listen to the song from the movie “waiting to exhale” ‘shoop, shoop, shoop ba-doo”

    shop you’re getting up there in age man, negative energy isn’t good for you…
    neither is trying to be a master-debator
    GAME OVER

    *poof*

  10. Intime says:

    Mystery. Have u added a click to your name??

    Mystery: “Oh babee, say my name, saaaaay my name!”

    Random Female: “Uh uh AWW Oh my god! *Click* Mystery!”

    Oh and everybody go get that Peter Russell video. It’s hilarious.

  11. tingly1 says:

    Pimperoni and anyone else who’s mistaken Ray Gordorn for me etc.

    With all due respect, guys…I’m a person in and of myself. I’m not Elvis, Ray, Johnny whoever the fuck else.

    *I’ve* only been in the community a couple of years. And unless Ray Gordon is BLACK and from/born and raised in the area that a hurricane named KATRINA just hit, I SERIOUSLY doubt that we’re one in the same.

    Not to mention that I’ a little more than half his age.

    Now…whether you BELIEVE THAT or whether you DON’T believe that, I really could give a fuck.

    Just KNOW that tingly1 is his OWN person.

    Period.

    Stay Cool.

    Tingly

  12. +energiser says:

    hi guys i m relatively new to the community. but i need some advice and would definately appreciate some help. i ve managed to read most of the info from the community stalwarts i.e dave d, MM, gunwitch, shark, rsd etc and i ve got to say that the “System” if you like, that make the most sense to me is mystery method. the reason for this is because i ve always been fairly sucessful with girls and can approach kiss lay etc. and in my 27 years i ve probably shagged about 35+ girls who ve all been between 6-9 in looks, and kissed hundreds and had lots of LTR flings etc. so while i don t claim to be an expert i m far from being a virgin or anything.

    BUT

    the problem i have is that all the *really* hot babes if i approach direct about half the time there not interested which is fine, however sometimes i can see there is some level of attraction but i ALWAYS GET COCKBLOCKED. now i m not on here to show off brag or sell or promote anything.

    when i look back at most very successful seductions of HIGH QUALITY women the pick up naturally or not seemed to follow mystery s method.

    now my question is only really adressed to you guys who have actually met mystery and done a seminar or bootcamp with him who regularly practice his method. I don t really want any recommendations about anything else, just MM.

    1. how have you found its worked for you in relation to your sucess before and after?

    2. could you have had the same sucess without it. i.e you understand MM and apply it yourself

    3. is there anyone with a similar age/ background to my own that has gone on to have what they would consider “massive sucess” on the back of it i.e lots of regular lays with 8 s 9 s and 10 s.

    4. if anyone wants to share there thoughts about mm with me privately feel free.

    Thanks alot guys i really appreciate any help.

    +energiser

  13. YOYOYO says:

    LOL!!! shirtless and barefoot!!

  14. XL says:

    Gay Rordon is a fukking kweer vaggot.

  15. Sally Anne says:

    Go here and you’ll find the REAL Ray Gordon.

    http://www.raygordonbooks.co.uk/forum/

    Sally

  16. Darkchild says:

    LOL! Reading this shit is fucking hillarious!

    I think it’s actually been going on since the beginning of this site!

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