Routine Dependancy
August 22, 2005 by Thundercat
Filed under Rants & Reviews
Tyler Durden has a new post up about reliance on routines…
Tyler Durden Posts:
Routines, while potent and effective, can also become like a car or a house or a bank account. And moreso, they can become a part of your identity in a way that is constricting.When we first come to the game, we learn that chumps will talk to girls with boring, resume-like conversation, that is essentially trying too hard to build rapport and conveying all the wrong things. We learn to have conversations that stand out and make us more interesting than the next man. We learn to make ourselves stand out from the chumps by virtue of our fascinating topics of conversation.
With time, we also become psychologically dependent on our routines, because we know that if a girl is talking to us, and we have intrigued her and pushed her away and made her chase us, that she is in our frame and that we can feel completely comfortable. She sees us as that guy who conveyed a ton of personality, so therefore she sees us in a way that we want to be seen and that guarantees acceptance.
And so when we see a girl later in the week, we think "I need to put her in state. What routines have I run? Oh shit!" Or if we meet a girl for the first time and we do not actively attract her, we feel a bit anxious as though there is something that we need to be doing.
Now let’s pause for a second…
As guys in the game, the things that attract women are the sub-communication of higher value. This is subcommunicated especially in our voice and eye contact, as well as in the fluidity and space usage in our body language to an extent. When your voice resonates and pumps, and your eye dialations are completely unreactive, and your body is fluid, you will have attraction. So when you speak to a woman, even when she is not initially attractive, if you are reactionless to it and you maintain your higher value sub-communications, she will eventually become reactive herself and fall into your frame.
And so back on track…
When we run a set gameplan, these sub-communications flow from us naturally because we are playing the role of the guy who attracts women. We have shed our chump identity, and we have taken on an identity of a player and a champ. We have conveyed our personality in a way that is cool and subtle and fun. One a certain level, we are doing far better than the guy who needed to say "I have a boat and a rolex" in order to feel like the girls see him in the way that he wants to be seen.
But at the same time, we have become dependent on personality conveyance being tacked onto the front of an interaction in order to feel comfortable. If we talk to a girl without the structured personality conveyance on the front end, we don’t feel comfortable. We feel naked and exposed. We feel dependent on the reaction of the woman to maintain the state boost that we gain from being a pimp and a player. And most importantly, WE IDENTIFY TYPICAL CHUMP TALK AS BEING CHUMPISH AND WE FEEL THAT WE HAVE TAKEN ON THE IDENTITY OF A CHUMP WHEN WE DO NOT ACTIVELY GAME. It is the same as when I first entered a relationship, and identified myself as a chump and my state crashed from there.
I don’t know about you guys, but I feel I need to have a PhD in psychobabble whenever I read TD’s posts nowadays. In fact, I had to read this one a couple times to try to understand it properly. I’m not sure I succeeded, but I think this is the gist of what he’s saying…
"Be a cool guy around women, and it doesn’t matter what you say."
All this mumbo-jumbo about "sub-communication" and "psychologically dependent" makes my eyes go cross.
It’s funny, because I was talking to a friend of mine who used to be, at least in my opinion, one of the best instructors in the community, and I actually talked to him about some of his old routines. At some point, you get good enough and experienced enough with women to know that success in love has little to do with what you say and a lot to do with who you are (mostly because who you are dictates what you say and do). This guy I was talking to and myself have gotten to a point where we don’t feel the need to use routines on women and don’t find it necessary to spin a bunch of pre-memorized material on targets, etc. We just kind of flow and take opportunities as they present themselves.
But the funny thing is, at one time, both of us were all about the pre-scripted routines and material! In a way, learning 103 memorized routines, or whatever, helped us to figure out that you don’t necessarily need to do that to get women. It’s just an excuse to talk to them about something.
Personally, I believe that most guys have to go through a process of discovery where they learn pre-scripted stuff and get comfortable talking and interacting with women. Kind-of like training wheels on a bike. You’re learning how to be social! Eventually, you reach a point where the training wheels aren’t necessary and you can go it alone. You may fall down from time to time and hurt yourself, but that doesn’t mean you should put the training wheels back on, does it?
I do think there is a tendency for some to rely too much on routines. But I personally see them as necessary, at least initially, for guys who need help learning how to be social and meet women in particular.
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Thundercat wrote,
Whoa Thundercat!
Are you applying for a job with Fidentia?
I like your translation. Don’t forget that there was a time, not long ago, that teaching routines were thought of as teaching “Game.”
Some still view it that way.
One of these days, sooner or later, we’ll correct that mentality.
The One
Thundercat wrote:
“I don’t know about you guys, but I feel I need to have a PhD in psychobabble whenever I read TD’s posts nowadays. In fact, I had to read this one a couple times to try to understand it properly.”
What’s funny is, when I was at RSD in Washington D.C., Tyler frequently busted my balls for being too verbose with my explanations (I’ve since fixed that).
Tyler is an awesome dude and a phenomenal teacher but he loves to hear himself talk, like there’s no tomorrow.
At any rate, good post; I’ve had no luck with routines as of late and have decided to make a switch to *gasp* actually talking to girls. It’s the HOTTEST new trend
DG
Bravo! Bravo Tyler! It seems you had an apiphane. Something must have hit you in the head because your making lots of sense. Not that you never did, but I understand what your talking about.
Actually I had that same kind of experience today where I was just being really composed and normal with everyone in school. Strangely enough I would just talk and vibe with the people around me and I could see that some of the woman around me were strangely drawn to me.
It’s funny how in this community everyone starts off with routines and wants to learn to be cocky and funny because they are tired of being “the nice guy”, but once you do it long enough you learn to become comfortable with others and especially with beautiful women. Once our comfort level is established all the “negs”, “C&F”, and ball busting bull caca is internalized and it flows naturally.
It’s been said before and I guess I’ll have to say it again, but once the wuss within has been banished it’s time to be congruent with who we are and assume attraction from the beginning. As babies we didn’t get up and start walking. We all had to crawl before we could walk. The best way to do that is use crutches in the beginning and then progress from there as Tyler said.
I remember Jlaix once said, “The best way to handle your inner game is to work with your outer game first.” What does this mean? It means for everyone who wants to get good with meeting woman to go out and do your approaches and weed out what didn’t work and keep what did. Notice your behavior patterns and mix it around to see what works, but make sure to be in the moment with every woman you want to meet.
In the words of Alfred, “Why do we fall?…..So that we pick ourselves back up.”
“It’s been said before and I guess I’ll have to say it again, but once the wuss within has been banished it’s time to be congruent with who we are and assume attraction from the beginning.”
Wiser words are rarely spoken in this community.
Facing and embracing your insecurities, battling your inner dragons is the critical first step. You’re right. It’s important to find the gold in our lesser points, focus on growing those and moving on. From here, we can integrate our new personalities to the tactics, skills and methods of the community – doing so comes across far more natural than some newbie kid who read mASF one afternoon and used the “Who Lies More?” opener that night at the club.
Well put, guys. This needed to be said.
Nice post from Owen. Good to see the routine DJ’s are finally starting to recognize more of the natural game. I guess one could also become a circus monkey ala Mystery Style and learn a bunch of tricks and chants and use that stuff.
Hey Thundercat, i love how you display your personal feelings for Tyler on this blog. U know what? u should try to write only nice lovely things about people you dislike. I’m serious, you should encourage people to buy speed seduction stuff, after all you only hate the products because you hate the guy.
Kidding guys. Don’t buy SS stuff. Go get it free somewhere.
Honestly, if only u could write like Tyler, maybe this would actually be a seduction blog.
Whoa Thundercat!
Are you applying for a job with Fidentia?
The_One wrote
“I like your translation. Don’t forget that there was a time, not long ago, that teaching routines were thought of as teaching “Game.”
Some still view it that way.
One of these days, sooner or later, we’ll correct that mentality. ”
The_One. Blame Mystery if you can’t stand this crap.( AAw and now u will have to talk about how it actually ain’t Mystery’s fault……..or he won’t like u, and that’d be terrible and u’ll feel so sad aaaw)
Don’t worry The_One, after all maybe in 10 years u’ll look back and realized all ur beliefs now are full of crap too and u’ll be teaching the REAL WAY to do it at that time. Maybe you will have gotten new knowledge from a guy called TIGER or WHALE and you will again be enlightened.
And as usual, im sure im one of your ex colleagues as you have been so “spot on” with your judgement in the past.
Hey Thundercat, i love how you display your personal feelings for Tyler on this blog. U know what? u should try to write only nice lovely things about people you dislike. I’m serious, you should encourage people to buy speed seduction stuff, after all you only hate the products because you hate the guy.
Kidding guys. Don’t buy SS stuff. Go get it free somewhere.
Honestly, if only u could write like Tyler, maybe this would actually be a seduction blog.
Whoa Thundercat!
Are you applying for a job with Fidentia?
The_One wrote
“I like your translation. Don’t forget that there was a time, not long ago, that teaching routines were thought of as teaching “Game.”
Some still view it that way.
One of these days, sooner or later, we’ll correct that mentality. ”
The_One. Blame Mystery if you can’t stand this crap.( AAw and now u will have to talk about how it actually ain’t Mystery’s fault……..or he won’t like u, and that’d be terrible and u’ll feel so sad aaaw)
Don’t worry The_One, after all maybe in 10 years u’ll look back and realized all ur beliefs now are full of crap too and u’ll be teaching the REAL WAY to do it at that time. Maybe you will have gotten new knowledge from a guy called TIGER or WHALE and you will again be enlightened.
And as usual, im sure im one of your ex colleagues as you have been so “spot on” with your judgement in the past.
When you learn too many routines you start to believe, subconciously, that you are not good enough for the girl if you don’t have something extraordinary to offer her.
Usually guys from the society believe that they have to have a fancy car or money.
If you learn a 100 routines you will internalize that same belief that is hard to erase once it’s in you. So beware.
Shark
http://www.attractanddate.com
Shark has a point about the belief system. The last thing anyone wants to internalize is a bad belief system such as, “I’m not good enough to attract a woman so I’ll use some trick or fancy line.”
I remember David D. saying, “Our bodies are like a projector. What we believe and how we feel inside are projected through our body language”. This goes back to what Tyler was saying about just keeping composed and make your voice resonate while being comfortable around your surroundings.
I’m not gonna lie to anyone, but there are still times where I will use routines. I’m still in the learning process as is everyone else, but I use it sparingly as a default if I have nothing else to say and I really want to meet a girl. I don’t want anyone to confuse me to be a badass or something, so I had to add that.
Sharks advice is so key and I thank you for that realization my friend. It’s important for myself and others to see the big picture. Keep on rockin guys!
“When you learn too many routines you start to believe, subconciously, that you are not good enough for the girl if you don’t have something extraordinary to offer her.”
Well said! And probably explains why TD says he has/(had?) “society anxiety disorder” as he had built up so many routines that he feels his true self is of no value. He also once wrote how you have no value before you meet a girl, and in most cases have no value to her after you’ve fucked her – thats one hell of a belief to carry around..
Thundercat has ZERO game.
Z-E-R-O
I’d bet money that if he and RJ had a PUA contest, RJ would win. Seriously.
Most likely, Thundercat won’t respond to this and if he does, he’ll just flame RJ or myself, but not make any logical or cohesive arguments. Trust me.
love,
RJFan
Props to Thundercat for taking a good read from TD, and working it not only into a chance to criticize him, but also a chance to pretend as though he himself has achieved “unconscious competence” with women. LOL..
RJFan,
What are you like 3 years old?
‘oohh let’s have a pick up match’
Jesus christ. Get a life.
Dave,
Whatever. Personally, I have a problem with Thundercat a) selling a product about picking up girls when he has no game and b) making a subtle jab a TD (who actually has game), while implying that Thundercat himself has game. For example:
Thundercat wrote:
At some point, you get good enough and experienced enough with women to know that success in love has little to do with what you say and a lot to do with who you are (mostly because who you are dictates what you say and do). This guy I was talking to and myself have gotten to a point where we don’t feel the need to use routines on women and don’t find it necessary to spin a bunch of pre-memorized material on targets, etc. We just kind of flow and take opportunities as they present themselves.
Here, Thundercat is implying that he is good with women and has game. This is propaganda.
Also, Dave, as you probably know. Thundercat constantly has been bashing RJ on this blog saying he has no game, etc.
I really think that a challenge between TC and RJ would be a good way to set the record set. I strongly believe that RJ would beat TC in a PUA contest. I don’t think this is childish. But that’s just me.
Unfortunately, I don’t think either would step up to the plate.
love,
RJFan
P.S. Still no reply from Thundercat on this thread.
Okay guys! I was thinkin about routines and how you can use them to create a natural game which is congruent to who we really are inside. Of course this is all theory based and I would like some constructive criticism. Let’s get started.
So as it has been said nobody wants to depend too much on routines as they can have a bad effect on your belief system, but that does not mean that you shouldn’t use routines if your a beginner. I have been pondering over how to use routines to our advantage and have that lead to natural game, so I have written some steps down.
Step 1. Stop Acting Like a Wuss
Stop acting like you want something from the woman you want to interact with. If your in that frame where your looking to get something from someone, then you have already lost. Keep in mind that interactions happen because you want them to happen and not because you desperately need something. At the same time if your seeking approval from someone, then chances are your acting like a “WUSS”. “Don’t put all your eggs in one basket”, as David D. says.
Step 2. Desensitizing
When we all start to “game” or whatever you want to call it we need a structure. The structure that has been of most use is “canned lines” for openers. Many of you may feel ackward using “canned material” in the beginning as I did when I first started out, but that is only natural. This ackward feeling will cause you to be incongruent, but that is okay because it trains your subconscious mind that it doesn’t matter how the interaction goes and that there are no major repercussions. Almost everyone goes through this phase, so there is nothing to worry about. The point of using “canned lines” is to desensitize you until you feel comfortable spitting the line and that approaching isn’t such a big deal. When using the “canned line” make sure to say it in your words and not word for word.
Step 3. Dropping Canned Material
It is important that once you have trained yourself to feel comfortable around women and spitting a line out it’s time to move on and make up your own openers that are congruent with who you are. Congruency is a major key to approaching and that means you have to be able to actually sound genuine in what your saying. If your not sure how to create an opener then I would highly recommend Thundercat’s book. Enough commercializing. The purpose of creating your own material is to train your thought process to come up with things to say that are congruent with who you are. I want you guys to know that congruency is how you perceive your beliefs to be and then projecting them outwards. Don’t forget that!
Come up with your own openers atleast once or twice a week and use them the rest of the week to train your thought process for congruency and to filter out what doesn’t work so that you can understand what you are doing wrong. Do this for a month or two if needed.
Step 4. Letting it all go
Once you are desensitized and can come up with your own lines it’s time to get naked. What I mean by that is just approach the woman that you want without thinking what your gonna say and just say the first thing that comes to mind, even if it’s “hi”. You have already become comfortable with yourself and have trained yourself to be congruent. All that is left to do is just go up to the girl and say, “Hey, what’s up? I saw you back there and I wanted to get a better look.” or whatever pops into your head. The most important thing is that you go in and say the first thing that comes to mind. Whatever it is that you say won’t come off as a cheesy line because your being true to the girl and most importantly yourself.
Step 5. Having Fun
It’s important to not take this “game” or interaction too seriously. I want you guys to think of it as an experiment your conducting with yourself and others. If your taking this too seriously than chances are your being stiff and incongruent. Meeting woman should be fun and it should never be a chore
To some of you this little structure may seem obvious or maybe even a bit weird, but the message that I want to get across is that you want to learn to be genuine and not someone else. Remember that it’s not what you say, but how you say it that’s important.
This structure is so that someone who is beginning to “play” to go through a process of self discovery to align everything they believe in to be projected outwards, even if it means to begin with a small amount of incongruency. Of course like anything else this takes time, but in the end you will reap the rewards if you believe in yourself and what you are doing.
As I said “constructive” criticism is more than welcomed.
And the RSD guys come out of the woodworks to defend their master like rabid dogs…
Jeesh, I only said Tyler’s posts are too convuluted. Other than that I was agreeing with him. Chill.
You guys are starting to act like the SS cult.
Thundercat
Actually Thundercat, I think that you may have made a fair point here. In fairness, we could create a Thundercat cult where guys sit at home eating cheetos and studying internet marketing. “Product quality doesn’t matter.. its all in the MARKETING!! With headlines and copy like this… we just CAN’T MISS!!!” We could even take monthly field trips to Tia Juana. Any takers? LOL..
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Thanks!
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else realize such distinctive about my trouble. You’re amazing!
Thank you!