DYD Creates Wussies?
June 17, 2005 by Thundercat
Filed under Rants & Reviews
BG has a post up on his blog where he takes a rather critical look at some of the teachings in the Double Your Dating ebook…
BG writes:
Watch out for the Double Your Dating eBook guys. There’s some advice in
there that’s simply false, incorrect, incomplete or confusing.For instance:
- David DeAngelo says to not touch a girl when you meet her. Act distant.
This is hard to get for wussies!! A 10 knows you want her. Be a man,
show her that you’re not afraid to touch her.- David DeAngelo says
to stay cocky and funny all the time (throughout the first ten dates or
so). What the fuck!? "Never drop that social mask, because she’ll see
the wussy". For AFC’s this might be true, but not being C&F doesn’t
equal being a wussy. Just be relaxed, try to make a connection, create
a comfortable situation where the two of you learn to trust each other.
That’s rapport! Staying on C&F is just lame and can come across as:
insecure, ‘too cool for her’ (over-qualification), or coming across as
a jerk who’s actually not interested in her. C&F can blow you out.- There’s one post where I am in a club.. And I’m looking for some girl,
because I’m leaving and I have to ask for her number. So I walk around,
spot her on the dance floor, but I’m too afraid to go up to her,
because she had already spotted me. I actually thought that going right
up to her would come across as NEEDY and desperate! Haha. And that’s
what I learnt from DYD.. So it actually turned me into a bigger wuss on
some areas.
I think BG is right on with a lot of his observations. If you’re going to err by either sticking to advice too rigidly, or being too relaxed with the advice, err on the side of being too relaxed.
I have come to believe that too many guys try to hide their true intentions from women, and that’s where things get sticky. If you like a girl, don’t try to hide it. If you want to ask for her number, ask for it. Don’t try to be too manipulative. If you do it all with a cool, laid back attitude, it’ll work.
Larrycoema on 
RonniePuh on 
RodneyVew on 
I’m not speaking for David D.. but I think his advice is geared at helping super newbs. That is people who don’t “get it” on any level whatsoever (sorta like me a year ago).
So David tells you these exaggerated rules to follow… then as you go along in your own life, you learn the real ropes and how to make it work for you.
And then.. congratulations, you’ve graduated from David D’s school of “Double your Dating”.
Move on to ASF or something equivalent like Mystery Method or whatever..
From MEET to SEX, there is a TIMELINE. The average time from MEET to SEX is 7 hours (billing by the minute WITH her or on the phone). We can break this timeline into three segments:
PICKUP = 30 minutes
MIDGAME = 6 hours
ENDGAME = 30 minutes
Of course those are just approximations, but this is based on real world data (mine and another dozen puas).
There is a TIME (and within a method or structure from MEET to SEX, a PLACE or phase) for a specific application of a PU principle.
Whenever there is a rule like “be cocky and funny” you have to ask, “WHEN should I do this in the timeline and when should I STOP?”
Theres a time AND place for every bit we use. The principle must be APPLIED into the timeline and one can easily fuck up and place a gambit into the wrong phase of the timeline.
The “Dont touch a hotty” is not an accurate enough rule. The rule is more like, “dont touch her if it telegraphs interest until AFTER she has first become attracted to you (seen by her IOIs) and only after you have baited her to DHV so you may IOI her back with KINO”. Now if you can touch her without her feeling like you are making a move, then thats a good thing because it makes your real moves in the future ambiguous. You can briefly touch her shoulder or lightly hit her just to show her you are normally a touchy person and its nothing to be alarmed about. only as she grows accustomed to your touch she grows COMFORTABLE with you.
In other words, you’ve discovered the simple rules are actually more complex. Its like discovering the \atom is actually much more complex than bohr’s planetary model.
DyD got you to where you are today. Now discover, without poo pooing the simplified models, what the more complex and accurate models predict. You are ready to learn/design new models that add to the work of DyD.
!Mystery
hey mystery, if you use time distortion you wouldn’t need to wait seven hours to get some punani. You can get it a heck of a lot sooner with the proper nlp-hypnotic seduction skills. just a thought.
http://www.seduction.com
Hey Tony or RJ,
If you were a real student of seduction, you’d already know Mystery teaches FUTURE PROJECTION……
Better sources for seduction are:
Mystery Method
Bishop
Badboy
Swinggcat
Juggler
Just a BETTER thought
I was talking about this a week ago with a PUA in Amsterdam.
The bad thing of DYD is that it can turn you into an excuzer, but the great thing about it is that it makes you really pro-active when it comes to your social life. And that’s the great thing about it.
Bad thing is though that some of the advice in there is simply bad advice. But finding that out only ups your game.
I heard from a gal that Mystery paid $100 to meet her in a bar for a bootcamp. More scaming losers. Don’t be fooled. RJ
DYD is the quickest way to make a wuss come across as a confident male.. The C&F attitude towards women who are attractive instantly gives you social status..at least above what you would usually be doing therfore a Hi self confidence because the female is responding better than when you were offering to buy her a drink every five minutes. I started with DYD but then started to develop my own methods.. DYD is deffinitly good for the beginner
I disagree with some stuff that is written in the DYD ebook, but not the stuff that BG claims doesn’t work. It sounds to me like the cries of a frustrated guy who goes after the technique instead of incorporating it into something bigger. If you just pick the technique out of the context of the ebook and try to apply it to your game without understanding the rest, then your on unknown grounds and if it doesn’t work your the one to blame.
David speaks of the greater man, the man that has everything together to the point where he doesn’t need the women and can therefor demonstrate it by staying cocky & funny, not touching etc. because these are the behaivors of the wuss. Am I saying you can do this when your overweight, have acne issues and wear a plain white t-shirt? You get the point.
Read the ebook again before you open your mouth BG.
I’ve gotten to the point where I almost HATE deangelo…
He only fleetingly mentions the importance of the higher levels, that techniques don’t matter, you can do ANYTHING if the higher level is set… But then he spends the other 99% of his products on techniques (how else do you fill up 12 DVDs?)… And his marketing copy is ALL techniques.
I mean I don’t think he necessarily does some of these things on purpose. But atleast a part of it comes with his greed for more sales.
Also a BIG part is him assuming that all his readers are where HE was when starting out i.e. extremely oversupplicating and ass kissing. Here’s the deal: the DYD material is the BEST material if you ARE David DeAngelo 10 years ago… He’s writing stuff HE needed to read. Now the thing is about 95% of guys are not at that level, so he ends up creating arrogant excusers around the world.
I honestly believe DYD fucked me over for 2-3 years in my development… I was an overanalyzing excuser who always needed to learn more, and could never ever say as much as HI coz I’d analyze every single little thing (BL, voice, angle, about 15 rules like “you MUST NOT to do x in y” etc..”… Then the solution was ofcourse you need to learn more about voice (buy & read 15 books on voice that he recommends), buy his body language series.
BLAH!!!
The ONLY books one ever needs is the Gunwitch method (possibly commercial version) & the
“weapons of mass seduction” by Senor Fingers (FREE!).
Oh and P.S.
It’s like Shark says “It’s not the girl’s fault that you have been a supplicator all your life”… Killer!!
There is always more.
Tae kwan do, ninjitsu, jujitsu, karate, wing chun, shaolin, jeet kun do, some may be more effective than others depending on what your goals are. Also many can work together and if you know them all you could become an even more effective fighter. And maybe some of u could learn everything and still not be able to beat a regular punk.
Yes u could learn the very simplest things and have an active sex life if you are absolutely retarded now.
But different peopl will have different needs. And there always will be another level. And a diffrent philosophy.
Everyone thinks that if a product does not apply to them then it should not exist. You might be a “Money” Magazine fan and u like to read Forbes magazine but believe Fortune is not as good and you don’t buy it.
Well thats good for you, but a lot of other people would be dissapointed if they stopped publishing Fortune magazine.
Some of you might just not want to be a pathetic AFC, and because you weren’t very smart or perceptive in that area, u tried out some things and they didn’t work. And so of course you would endorse what worked for you and everything else isn’t as good.
Now, some of you might want to be very best Pick Up Artist in the whole planet. That you will have contingencies for every possible situation and have 1000 back up plans. Even if you learn everything to its finest detail and have the desire to learn from everyone who believes they have something to share then no matter what others say about how you should act, you know what you want and you know what results you have been getting.
A lot of people believe they know what is right and wrong and try to force their opinions onto others. Instead of saying. “This program didnt do much for me”, they will go “This program won’t do much for anyone!”
The problem with accusing anyone of giving advice or instruction that is crap is that it shows disrespect to the people who feel that they have gained so much from it.
That is why i believe no matter what method or style you have learnt, for those who have gained value from it, it is definitely understandable that they will defend any disparraging of the material.
It’s great that so many of us have similar goals. We can all work together to teach and share with each other different things that we know can work. Instead of trying to tell each other what doesn’t. ( Which due to the ego driven nature of human beings, everyone seem to be doing it to each other)
I’m not accusing him of anything.
This post came from my weblog which is a site where I keep track of my learning experience and sometimes I reflect and write some stuff about the past and how I changed it (you get the idea).
I did not write the above article to accuse DYD of anything. I wrote it to show how some of the things in the book are incorrect (for me).
Oh sorry BG, wasn’t refering to you when i mentioned people accusing others material. I was looking more at some of the comments on here.
DeAngelo – dishing seems to be the latest trend today.
It’ll all pass…
After 3 years I’m sure there will be “DeAngelo wasn’t so bad after all”-posts.
i bet “intime” is david deangelo. i know he supposedly does nt contribute to this board but i bet he fuckin’ does. (under a fake name). i personally like a lot of his stuff and have bought a few of his products. He is blatantly spinning out loads of new unnecessary products, you can t blame the man for wanting to make lots of money… ( its definately not the way to lay girls) BUT it a. makes it simpler.
b.sure makes your own life a lot easier!!!
i ve always found it fairly easy to pick up attractive women HOWEVER
i bought david ‘s e book about 4 yrs ago and then the advanced dvd and i immediately saw the ways i d fucked up big time with some incredible high quality women and been dumped. if you have nt alrady get the advanced dvd. dave you deserve the cash. have another learjet on me!!
DeAngelo states to NEVER drop the C&F. He mentioned in a newsletter that you should always be C&F to the very end. While Mystery has tried to come to DeAngelo’s defense, he has failed, b/c David D. never talks about C&F as a technique, to be used in a greater plan. Instead, David D. talks about C&F as the only tool you need to get a woman, and a tool that is supposed to be used from meet to lay.
This is what David D. is wrong about, b/c he fails to talk about rapport at all. Thus, he preaches against what MM teaches, in his products, and I can’t understand why Mystery fails to see this…..
….and that’s the….
-Truth
Actually, David D talks about a concept called “reverse rapport” in his Mastery Series … in which he basically states using it as a means of implying that you already have a deep rapport with the person you just met.
I certainly don’t think David D is suggesting that every comment one makes must be C&F … it must be mixed with other things. But if one keeps the C&F going throughout the relationship, it will keep the woman off-balance, and therefore, be one of the tools to keep the attraction going.
“”Actually, David D talks about a concept called “reverse rapport” in his Mastery Series … in which he basically states using it as a means of implying that you already have a deep rapport with the person you just met.”"
When did he “come up with” this?
I championed “assuming rapport” as far back as maybe 2002 which is the same exact thing.
Not saying I own it, but what gives, is that what david d uses the community for? To hack ideas and create new products from them?
Ok What Truth said is utter crap because many of you here can produce a whole video of David D saying ” C&F is only one tool in your toolbox, it isn’t everything blah blah”
I know nobody here cares about proving things to Truth anymore or helping him find the “Truth” but i guess this is just for the benefit of other readers who might actually believe that guy.
Oh come on Gun, be fair. All because you talk about assuming rapport and David D talks about reverse rapport doesnt mean he stole it from you.
Are you saying if i teach students to assume rapport i stole it from you? My NLP trainer from 1997 will have something to say about that. He’ll probably say i stole it from HIM. Damn anything i teach i’ll get 50 people saying i stole it.
Its like Rick H has something called the 3 second rule which is basically the same as Mystery’s. Supposedly they came up with it individually and it’s useless claiming other people are teaching “their material”
Okay gunbitch…
Assuming rapport goes back to like 2000 in the PUA world…and was talked about in the hypnosis world for years (chances are you shamelessly ripped it off someone else without even knowing you did).
You’re starting to sound like RJ.
David D admits that most of our thoughts are not our own original thinking. Let’s face it, 99.999999% of everything you learned, was taught to you by someone who was taught it by someone else.
Which is more important … having a math teacher stand up and say “I’m the one who came up with the concept of addition and subtraction” who couldn’t teach you how to even add 1+1 … or would you rather have a math teacher say, “I’ve studied many levels of math, and let me teach you the concept of addition and subtraction.” and who could make you understand the concept very easily?
Have you ever had a Math/Science/English (or whatever) teacher that you just hardly learned anything from them? And haven’t you had a teacher that just made the material so easy to learn, that you just got it right away? It really doesn’t matter who teaches you the concept, as long as you get it. If the teacher imparts the concepts in a way that you quickly learn and understand, isn’t that more important to you, then who actually came up with the material in the first place?
BTW – David D gives lots and lots of credit to others for his knowledge. It’s not like he says that everything he teaches, is stuff he made up all on his own.
BG-
Great post and I agree with you on all points. I’ve actually READ the book and I can honestly say that all of your points are valid. (And the book really isn’t what it’s cracked up to be, btw.) It’s as if he’s advocating that C&F is the ONLY way to get a chick.
Simply put, there’s NO NEED to be a C&F, super-cool asshole 100% of the time. Hell not even 51% of the time.
This stuff is merely a tool and should be used sparingly. The most important part of an interaction is building a connection with a woman so that she feels good about getting sexual with you.
I was just making out with a chick last night, and if the logistics and timing weren’t so fucked up…we would have been fucking in a matter of a couple hours TOTAL TIME. (Another post)…all this with mere everyday conversation (including sex talk) to build rapport.
Learn how to hold an interesting NORMAL conversation and be secure enough within YOURSELF to be in front of a woman to do it is really all you need.
Last point on this: Ross Jeffries made a damn good point about DD. He’s basically in it for the money. And he does seem to be taking other people’s techniques and presenting them as his own.
Let’s see…DYD, DYD Mastery, Guru Interviews, Body Language, and now Sexual Communication. Tomorrow it will be “Hold your dick and make all the women want to have your baby Basic, Advanced and Mastery Courses.”
Does anybody see a pattern here? If DYD was that great of a product, there’d be NO NEED for “more advanced” products. That’s what makes GUNWITCH so great and number 1. He’s got ONE product. And it’s the LAST product you’ll EVER NEED. PERIOD.
Yes, I’ve read GWM, too. You simply get your money’s worth and a WHOOOOLE lot more. DYD doesn’t even come close.
Sincerely,
Tingly
BG-
Great post and I agree with you on all points. I’ve actually READ the book and I can honestly say that all of your points are valid. (And the book really isn’t what it’s cracked up to be, btw.) It’s as if he’s advocating that C&F is the ONLY way to get a chick.
Simply put, there’s NO NEED to be a C&F, super-cool asshole 100% of the time. Hell not even 51% of the time.
This stuff is merely a tool and should be used sparingly. The most important part of an interaction is building a connection with a woman so that she feels good about getting sexual with you.
I was just making out with a chick last night, and if the logistics and timing weren’t so fucked up…we would have been fucking in a matter of a couple hours TOTAL TIME. (Another post)…all this with mere everyday conversation (including sex talk) to build rapport.
Learn how to hold an interesting NORMAL conversation and be secure enough within YOURSELF to be in front of a woman to do it is really all you need.
Last point on this: Ross Jeffries made a damn good point about DD. He’s basically in it for the money. And he does seem to be taking other people’s techniques and presenting them as his own.
Let’s see…DYD, DYD Mastery, Guru Interviews, Body Language, and now Sexual Communication. Tomorrow it will be “Hold your dick and make all the women want to have your baby Basic, Advanced and Mastery Courses.”
Does anybody see a pattern here? If DYD was that great of a product, there’d be NO NEED for “more advanced” products. That’s what makes GUNWITCH so great and number 1. He’s got ONE product. And it’s the LAST product you’ll EVER NEED. PERIOD.
Yes, I’ve read GWM, too. You simply get your money’s worth and a WHOOOOLE lot more. DYD doesn’t even come close.
Sincerely,
Tingly
Mystery-
**********************************
You said:
From MEET to SEX, there is a TIMELINE. The average time from MEET to SEX is 7 hours (billing by the minute WITH her or on the phone). We can break this timeline into three segments:
PICKUP = 30 minutes
MIDGAME = 6 hours
ENDGAME = 30 minutes
Of course those are just approximations, but this is based on real world data (mine and another dozen puas).
*************************
With all due respect…BULLSHIT.
I have to WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree with you on this, my friend. 3 hours tops…from meet to lay. This excludes the EXCEPTIONS to the rule, of course. It just doesn’t take that long. And this is what MY personal experiences tell me.
MEET: 10-15 mins. (Get number)
-This is to get her feeling good about you and feeling comfy enough to give her number to you…with the intention of getting to know you and not flaking etc.
**
MID GAME: 45 mins.-2 hours (phone convo)
-This is to build a deeper connection with the woman. Getting better acquainted and connected with this PERSON that you met earlier. By the end of this conversation I will have made her feel great about having met me, and I will have lead the convo into explicit sex talk. She’ll be ready to have sex with me by the end of this phone conversation, in other words.
END GAME: 30 mins. (You’re fucking)
-I come over. Foreplay. Fucking.
**
or…
Just 3 hours of straight interaction with a girl in a place where your can talk for that long without having to leave so soon (i.e. Club, parties, social events)
GWM basically…make the ho say no type stuff.
If it takes 7 hours on average to pull a chick that let’s me know a couple things:
1. You’re sweating any ONE chick WAAAAY to long.
2. You’re using a bunch of long, drawn out routines, magic tricks and patterns etc. to seduce this chick.
My point is that if you did CUT OUT ALL OF THE *EXTRA* stuff it would only take you 3 hours tops.
Gotta run.
Tingly
You’re nowhere near! The full List includes.
Double Your Dating Book,
Double Your Dating Advanced Series,
Double your dating interview series
Attraction isn’t a choice ebook
Sexual communication program
Double your dating Mastery Program
Cocky comedy product
Ask me anything: Women & Bars product
Ask Me Anything: Sexual communication
Ask me anything: vol 3
Double your dating – body language program
Double your dating – Inner game program
That’s a total of 13 products… With some total learning & implementation time of oh about 4 years… and at a cost of some oh 2000$…
It’s better than RJ’s implementation time – a lifetime and an expense of several thousand dollars (you have to attend all his seminars as a brother)
Compare that to Gunwitch’s 39.95$ and learning/implementation time of at most a year (in which you actually constantly improve and get laid while you learn)
That’s it… He gives you just what you NEED to know, and makes you go out there and do it
as opposed to DeAngelo telling you there’s 14 critical things you MUST know before you walk out your door or else the woman will spit poison on you. And in order to learn them you need to order his new “bullshitting advanced series” at 156 easy monthly payments of only a meager 5$ a month
Yeah in the same way we are now seeing RJ wasn’t all that bad posts? Huh!? Once RJ was found out… once it was found that he’s a money leech creating a cult, not really intending to help guys but get them addicted to him… It only grew stronger with time. What makes you think his bastard child DeAngelo will pass any differently? DeAngelo’s been found out and its not a trend… its the beginning.
Glad you guys are smart enough to see what’s going on. For some reason, I dont care anymore about what they are trying to do. If people are weak enough to be led by “Puppet Masters” maybe they deserves what’s coming to them. As for me, my mind was too strong and saw through all the bullshit RJ was trying to do anchoring us in the seminar etc…..
…….And you bloggers get it too…….
…… Fuck that, I just want some pussy…..
p.s. The Speed Seduction List is DEAD……
No useful information, nothing of any significance is going on, just more newbs seeking approval from the master…… it’s so riduculous how they fall for it……. If you want some really useful info, be on Mystery’s Lounge.
These posts about people stealking from others can not be founded.. I came up with plenty of approaches and concepts that I had figured out on my own before I even got involved with the community.. I order the mastery series DVD from DeAngelo and I picked up two things off of it that I had thought up before I ever heard of DeAngelo.
I want to say that someone posted under my name on this thread that wasn’t me, as I have a lot of respect for Gunwitch and certainly wouldn’t flame him.
Next, I’d like to thank Intime, my own personal troll, for showing how pathetic he is for not attacking my points, but rather what he perceives as my character. I don’t know whether to be honored to have my own personal troll, or be angry b/c it’s a loser like Intime.
Lastly, reverse rapport is different than assuming rapport. When you assume rapport, you are conversing with someone on a different number of topics. Reverse rapport assumes that by making your cocky comments that you are manufacturing some kind of rapport on the basis of busting her balls “b/c only her friends treat her like that”.
Anyone who has ever been in the field knows that that is not true. Making C&F comments is not the same as being in a deep rapport with someone, and in fact, C&F at the wrong time can keep you out of deep rapport. David DeAngelo’s teachings do not make room for rapport, so lets stop crediting him with things that he doesn’t teach. Whether he actually practices what he preaches or instead uses rapport (but doesn’t teach his students how), is another story.
As for Intime (my little troll/bitch), take a Fidentia workshop or a Badboy workshop and you’ll be taught, by those better than you, just why C&F kills deep rapport……
….and that’s the…..
-Truth
Truth-
I think you have the coolest exit. Can I have your autograph? LOL.
Seriously, your shit’s on point.
If all you did was C&F from the time you met a woman to the end…you’d blow her out in a matter of minutes and never get laid. You’d simply be an asshole with nothing interesting to say.
At some point there needs to be some rapport building. You do that by talking about a variety of topics that get progressively more personal. All this while sharing a piece of yourself too, to create that connection/those “me too!” moments.
ASSUMING rapport simply means you’re ACTING like she has already known you and has liked you all her life. That’s all done in the way you act/come off. Talking to her as if you’re ALREADY friends, although you just met. Period.
(You’d surprised at how many you can get to convince themselves they already know and like you if you just walk up to them and act like you know ‘em. Walking up like, “Hey remember me?” or “What’s up! blah, blah, blah.” I haven’t seen you in a long time. Great gag to play on people but this demonstrates the POWER of assuming rapport when you do it in the proper context.)
DYD say NOTHING about rapport building. GWM goes into pretty good detail about it…and stresses it as a very important factor in seducing women.
Anyway, C&F is a merely a tool…and something that should be used SPARINGLY…only at the right moments, as I’ve said before. It should not be your whole game or conversation.
Be secure in yourself. Master the art of conversation. Learn to incorporate some or you sexuality in an interaction, and learn how to LEAD a woman’s mind from her frame of mind, to yours…and then to a SEXUAL one…and WATCH how your lay rate will shoot through the roof.
Tingly
Dave Riker (Personal friend of DeAngelo) makes a very good point on C&F and why DeAngelo teaches it like he does.
He says that even though he thinks he’s “busting balls” and being COCKY & funny, in reality when you see him interacting with women you will see it as playfull teasing. Now apparently HE THINKS he’s being an asshole who’s BUSTING balls… He thinks he’s playfully insulting girls when in reality he’s doing plain old teasing & push-pull.
But when he tries to teach others he teaches it as he THINKS he’s doing it, not the way he IS doing it…
Exactly Alek.
That’s why Mystery teaches it as “Cocky and Playful” not Cocky and Funny.
Having just said that though, there ARE girls who like assholes. And with those girls being a total dick and even doing things like humiliating them in public can be quite effective(think about the asshole jock/bully in High School with the hot cheerleader GF). I wouldn’t use it as my main MO but it’s useful to have in my toolbox.
I am not interested in discussing David D.
As far as the effectiveness of cocky & Funny in meeting/attracting/keeping women, I can offer my own experience which I later learned also echoes quite a few other gentlemen:
This is horrible advice.
Furthermore, I’d add that thinking of Cocky/funny as a weapon is the reason why someone fails at generally attracting women to begin with.
It’s not a weapon. It’s not a tool.
Become more playful, have fun, be comfortable in being able to joke around with people, MEN AS WELL AS WOMEN.
The One
“It’s not a weapon. It’s not a tool.
Become more playful, have fun, be comfortable in being able to joke around with people, MEN AS WELL AS WOMEN”
And use Desenex
http://WWW.DynamoSexLife.com
No Bullshit No Routines
JUst 100% male 24 7
When i first read his DYD ebook i thought to myself men this is another rip-off, then i got
his advance series and it completely blow and boggle my AFC mind. It presented me a different reality that i didn’t thought existed. Most of concept is true especially the inner game $hit, but some of his outer game well it didn’t quite. But it is good for the beginner chumps(like me who didn’t know that i was a chump).
Anyway, in my point of view all of you guys are right and wrong at the same time.
Intime said it best. Some $hit may work for you and some $hit won’t. I just pretty much take any method, technique or style that works for me. Just use your common sense whether the advice would work.
P.S.
I think David D. paid BG for this post(joke…hehehe!). I ain’t hatin on you man but i get you where you’re comin from.
More Political Bullshit. I guess where there are players there’s always going haters and to all haters out there, fock yall! You guys are tainting the community and don’t deserve don’t deserved to be in it!
The reference to “assuming rapport by breaking rapport” comes from the ebook written in 2001, so “reverse rapport” is another name for that.
David D. states, IN A NEWSLETTER, that cocky and funny is only at most 10% of the equation. But maybe people would rather spew venom and think they’re “exposing” someone instead on here…
but I will say the constand onslaught of new products bothers me. He should go back to writing newsletters sometimes, they’re all old now.
well take what works and throw the rest out….
Stop reading.
Start approaching.
“What makes you think his bastard child DeAngelo will pass any differently? DeAngelo’s been found out and its not a trend… its the beginning.”
DeAngelo…my bastard child? You’d also have to include Bishop, Cunningham, etc. etc. etc.
No, these twists aren’t my children. They are people who have learned methods and techniques to make them more powerful or more attractive but never dealt with the core issues of fear, self-loathing, and the will to power that continually drive them on.
As for DeAngelo being found out; it’s amazing to me that people have said so little about his writing an ebook for women, teaching them to avoid men who do the very things he teaches men to do in his DYD ebook!
The lie from the Deangelo camp is that DD did NOT write the Christian Carter ebook; that a DYD staff member/team member wrote it.
I wonder when someone will bolt from Mr. DeAngelo’s employ and tell the real truth about what is going on with the Christian Carter ebook. Perhaps an anonymous email to me spilling the beans on the whole thing would be welcome.
RJ
93/93
Tingly wrote:
“Last point on this: Ross Jeffries made a damn good point about DD. He’s basically in it for the money. And he does seem to be taking other people’s techniques and presenting them as his own.”"
Spot on. Look, DD stole cocky/funny from my original book which I wrote in 1988. You can find it in How To Get The Women You Desire Into Bed.
My point: the pattern of DeAngelo/Pagan/Carter or whatever new name he’ll call himself next week IS NOT NEW.
He never, NEVER has been original, from the get go.
The guy can’t even teach worth a damn; he READS FROM HIS NOTES. Is that teaching? Is it even presenting?
A hack, a flack, and someone who BUYS WITH DOLLARS every connection/friendship he has.
And most of all, a profoundly deceptive person who continues to deny that he ever knew me or learned a thing of value from me, all the while knowing that he launched his business from ideas STOLEN FROM ME.
And people love him because he remains silent, mistaking that for dignity. It’s not dignity. It’s avoidance because he simply knows he cannot answer honestly for what he has done, and any lie he tells will be instantly eviscerated.
Lovely man, that David D. I urge anyone at any of his events to simply ask him: is it true you were once a student of Ross Jeffries and that you can be seen on Ross’ products, saying how great you think SS is?
RJ
93/93
Ross, how much did you steal from Bandler, Cialdini, Tony Robbins etc…?
There isn’t any patent on being Cocky, Funny or any combo thereof.
And yeah, I once thought SS was the greatest thing in the world when I first got in to “the community” too and it still has some value.
So what if DD once thought the same thing?
Paul, you do bring in an awesome point with the women’s book…
It hasn’t been emphasized enough, at all… The advice he has on those newsletters, IT really really is all on how to avoid, manipulate and play with guys who *cue in the drumroll* do what he teaches guys to do.
HUH!?
Second great point is his teaching abilities… No FUCKING comment… Really… Teaching… abilities… of Eban Pagan… in… seminars… (rolleyes)
Anyone who can’t see through Mr. Pagan by now is prolly brain dead.
Ross I remember in one of your tapes you talking about the Japanese. You were defending the Japenese from the stance that Japanese are stealing the technology and mass producing, therefore gaining advantage over American companies.
Your defense was that Japanese only took what worked and improved on it. Maybe that’s what David D’s done.
“Ross, how much did you steal from Bandler, Cialdini, Tony Robbins etc…?”
I don’t “steal” from anyone. I ALWAYS cite my sources, give credit where it is due, and acknowledge where I learned things.
If I was stealing from Bandler, would he still, TO THIS DAY, recommend my work and tell people to go to my seminars? By the way, is anyone else in this community on speaking terms with a genius like Bandler? Nope..just me.
“Paul, you do bring in an awesome point with the women’s book…
It hasn’t been emphasized enough, at all… The advice he has on those newsletters, IT really really is all on how to avoid, manipulate and play with guys who *cue in the drumroll* do what he teaches guys to do.”
Thanks. It’s incredible the dishonesty of Mr. Thundercat. If I had pulled a stunt like this, Thundy would be raking me over the coals on a twice-daily basis.
But he’s an affiliate of DYD, so he pushes the offical DYD party lie..er, I mean..LINE, that it was not DD who wrote this Christian Carter ebook for women, but “a DYD team member”.
C’mon. Read the prose on the Christian Carter site. It’s straight from DeAngelo/Pagan’s pen. Whether someone else actually typed it is immaterial.
If DeAngelo has nothing to hide, why doesn’t he announce this new ebook for women to his entire email list of DYD buyers? Simply say, “Hey guys..I’ve got this great new ebook for the sisters, daughters and other important lady friends in your life who want to do better with the opposite sex. Join my affiliate program now and recommend my book”.
He’s stabbed his entire male customer base right in the back to make a buck.
And he’ll clamp the tightest lid he can on the story; my prediction is he will tightly restrict ANY questions to him at the Cliff’s List seminar to the point of threatening to boot any speaker or audience member who mentions it or asks about it.
De Angelo..if you have nothing to hide, come on in here and tell your official story. Tell your readership as well about it.
Can you hear the stone-walling? Can you just hear the idiots and brain-dead water-heads out there who will say David D is far too “alpha” to anser me and is AMOGing me by being silent. Right. Like Nixon was Amogging Judge Sirica by not handing over the tapes.”
”
Second great point is his teaching abilities… No FUCKING comment… Really… Teaching… abilities… of Eban Pagan… in… seminars… (rolleyes)”
How could anyone with any integrity or pride in their work charge money for that and call it teaching?
“Anyone who can’t see through Mr. Pagan by now is prolly brain dead.”
Or just easily fooled. Mr. Pagan ,come out in the open and answer for what you are doing. And my entire product catalog FREE to the first 5 people attending Cliff’s seminar who ask Mr. Pagan either about his Christian Carter e book for women or his former association with me and Speed Seduction: is it true he is on my LA 99 videos praising Speed Seduction and also interviews me on my Masters and Methods CD’s, praising Speed Seduction?
TELL THE TRUTH DEANGELO/PAGAN/CARTER/STEPHI STEVENSON!
Shabbat Shalom, everyone!
Ross, shut the fuck up. People are tired of you. You are irrelevant. Get a life and leave the community.
Maybe you can teach your new age – bullshit to a bunch of women. Oh that’s right, your psychic videos were a big fat flop that everyone laughed at. And you can’t give seminars that attract a decent number of paying female customers because you are so repulsive women run from you.
How could anyone with integrity and pride promote Bishop as his best student and then admit later that he never saw Bishop get anything more than an email address?
Avoiding an argument with you IS tantamount to retaining one’s dignity, Wuss. You are the lowest of the low so to argue with you is akin to holding a press conference in a toilet stall.
You want everyone to come clean, well why not explain this one, coward?
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/08.13.98/cover/speedseduction1-9832.html
Why did the one girl leave, Wuss? Are you are so grotesque, socially retarded, or both that women RUN AWAY from you?
Please kill yourself and do us all a favor. You owe it to yourself since you caused your ex-roommate to kill himself.
Bye!
Toecutter said it better than I can, read for yourself:
“toecutter” <0>
Sun, 28 Jul 2002 09:50:00 GMT
newsgroup: alt.seduction.fast
subject: Re: Portrait of a WBAFC. (long … satirical prose)
wrote in message
> Excellent call.
Misogynists unite!
> I think it was Ross in one of the newsletters (or maybe in his first book?)
who
> said something like, “I start off by playing fair. But if someone starts
> cheating me, I am under no obligation to just stand there and take it. I
fight
> back!”
I have met people exactly like you. SSers exactly like you. People gave me
shit when I said it last time.
>
> The word “misogyny” gets tossed around a lot, even by men who should know
> better.
>
> Go to http://www.dictionary.com, and look up the word, ‘misandry.’
The 2 go together.
Let me describe you. I have met so many SSers like you that I can combine them and give you a cold reading. (No offense to people who are here to PU women and are actually good at it. I am talking about PositivelyMale and islandescape here, not you).
Jim hates the world. When he walks out his front door, he avoids his
neighbours. He says to himself “Please, please, let that stupid old hag next door not be out the front. She is watching me.” He might even have a peek to see if she is there to make sure he avoids her. He hates people so much that he will not even go to the same Restaurant too many days in a week lest the guy who owns it sees that he is eating alone again. He pretends to look the guy in the restaurant in the eyes, but in fact he looks just below the eyes.
He can’t stand the honesty of looking someone in the eyes. He retreats from his world. He looks out at it as if looking at fish in a bowl. And he hates them. Those normal people that don’t think. “Ignorance is bliss” he tells himself.
And the injustices that have happened to him in his life he holds next to his breast. He lies in bed at night and dreams of fire-bombing the house of someone who did him a wrong many years ago. Jim is not like a mafia guy, who will get revenge on the guy who fucked his sister, but rather this is about some guy who made him look stupid once. The guy who held Jim out of some club that he wants to be part of. A bully abusing the power that he doesn’t deserve. Someone who made Jim feel inadequate once. That person is not even aware that he did Jim wrong, but Jim remembers. But don’t worry, Jim is not dangerous … he has not the balls to actually act on his rancour. He just holds his grudge and hates the world from within his impotence.
It is the stench. The stink of humanity. They all stink. He can smell them. From the beggar on the street who smells like a mixture of rotten apples and beer from the garbage he slept in. Through the good looking guys with the women … they stink of shallowness and semeny musky onions. Through the businessmen making all that money … they stink of materialism and sour milk. All the way up to the prime minister. He stinks to high heaven. Of self importance and garlic. And the prime-ministers wife … she stinks of rotting flesh. Of old age. Of fishy cunt smell. Of cheap perfume. She especially stinks more that the rest. Stinks of hypocrisy.
And women … he hates them! It is nothing personal against women though. He hates everybody. But especially all those women that he wants so badly. He wants them but they don’t want him back. And he is so superior to them. So much smarter. So much more sensitive. He feels deeper than anyone. He wants to fire bomb them. He wants to kill them. He want to … he wants to … he wants to fuck them. He wants to fuck them. Fuck them. Fuck the stupid bitches. All those girls who listened to him patiently while he spoke to them. And they spoke back to him, the bitches. And they led him on. All those girls who pretended to be listening to him, but then … but then … but then did …
nothing. Bitches. And he wanted to fuck them. He could smell them. Yeah and since they were avoiding his eye contact he was looking at their breasts like a sneaky little weasel. And just quietly between the 2 of us, it made his dick hard. It made him tingle all over. It made his heart race. But he will admit freely to himself that he is a sneak. He is proud of it. “What of it? The stupid fuckers out there can’t even see me sneaking things.” And he saw a flash of her white underwear. He can still see that when he talks of it. He wants her. He wants to fuck her and kill her. He wants to strangle the bitches. Crush their snotty fucking necks. Who do they think they are? He hates them. With a passion.
And then RJ comes along. And Ross tells him that it is not him. It is THEM. Bitches. And that he can have some self respect. He believes that everyone listening to RJ hates them. “The bitches fuck none of us.” He puts on his RJ tapes and just listens to the evangelist. As his hate overflows. “The evangelist preaching to all of us who hate them.” In privacy. In bad quality. And he can imagine all the likeminded people locked in their rooms alone across the globe and the scratchy message of the evangelist comes through loud and clear. Like the people under the dictator in Myanmar sitting around hidden forbidden short-wave radios listening to the clarity of uncensored opinion on
Free Radio International. They should call the bitches on their shit, that is the message. “Yeah, that’s right. Call the bitches on their shit. That’ll teach them.” Jim smiles as he thinks of making them suffer. “Ahh, the pleasure of flushing them down the toilet of humiliation is almost more fun than the pick-up” … was that how Ross put it in his original book? He dreams of getting them back for all those times that they were not attracted to him. All the times they didn’t fuck him. All the times he couldn’t put his dick into
their hot fishy stink.
But, as a timid mouse in his hole, he need not actually do that. Same as when he thinks of fire-bombing his old boss and his 5th grade schoolteacher. He can rehearse those conversations in his mind. Self hypnosis is beautiful … day-dreaming by any other name. He can do these state exercises in preparation for the day he goes to war. Yeah, that is right! He is preparing for fucking WAR against the bitches. And then he is going to fuck them all. He hates them. He is on the internet speaking to like minded people who hate them. He hates the other people also, but they are all superior to the rest of the world so he hates them less. Because they hate so deeply also. And no-one else can’t
see it. The rest of the world leaves him alone. Leaves him to think. And to plot. And to analyse.
What? Maybe Ross Jeffries can’t PU? Unimportant! He was the one who came out and told Jim that the problem was not him. It was THEM. The bitches. He allowed Jim to feel good about his rancour. Ross Jeffries was the first. PU? No that is not what it is about … it is about reclaiming his pride! It is about the theory. It is about feeling good about his hate. It is about getting the bitches back. It is about WAR. And RJ is the general. He is the ugly guy who is spreading the word and calling them on their shit and fucking the bitches. If God were just, RJ would be giving the bitches syphilis. Spreading it that everyone should call the bitches on their shit. And everyone should fuck them … hard! And that he should be a sneaky weasel and say “nude erection” when they think he is saying “new direction”. Hehe! And sneak in a
“you can clothes off your mine”. Ha! That’ll get the bitches. They’ll never see that. And he will sneak a look at her tits too in his fantasy while he hypnotises himself. And he will fuck them. Up the arse. And he will send her home with a bleeding arse and a wad on her back. Yeah, that is it. It is not about picking up. This is a fucking revolution. This is about hate. This is about …
I met him Saturday night. Jim was his name. He was a 36 year old Greek
Australian. He didn’t want to come out, but I twisted his arm. He planned to spend Saturday night watching a re-run of “Austin Powers” on commercial television. Told me on the telephone that I would recognise him because he looks like David Copperfield and is a little more than 6 foot tall, and that I should meet him out the front of a certain pub in Collingwood.
He did look like David Copperfield. Shoulder length black hair. Olive
complexion. Skinny. Grungy looking. Of ambiguous sexuality. Really good voice control. I thought he might have been good. He had a good look. He met me easily. He stood very close to me. Inside my personal space. And he smiled. The smile of a freemason when he meets another and they do the secret handshake.
He started with some anecdotes about some women in his life. All of them ending in embarrassment. He told me of his desire for a wife. He talked about Ross Jeffries. He talked about some other books he has read. Eric Webber. Eagan. Julius Fast. Dale Carnegie. Ross Jeffries.
He is infinitely forgiving of RJ’s bad PU routines. First because he is not actually doing them with live women and can therefore not judge them. But more importantly RJ for him, the way he has twisted the reality of SS Inc., is leader of a club. A club of AFCs. They hold in their heart spite so strong you can taste it as they speak about women. And when they mistake me for one of them they speak frankly about their hate. And when I say I am not an SSer, they look at me like a spy. Like a traitor. Like a Judas. But Jim is not really into picking up women at all. He doesn’t even go out of his house to do it. It is something deeper. Something profound that RJ articulates for him. Jim talked about Mystery. Mystery doesn’t speak for him. Jim told me he went
to Mystery’s web site. He said that Mystery is good looking. He said that in a club it is all about looks and instant attraction. He said that Mystery is not the same breed as him. That Mystery does not understand him. He is not interested in a Mystery product. Mystery has nothing to offer him. Jim pretends to be interested in PU and pleasing women. This is because he wants a woman. He wants a wife. He wants normalcy. But he hates it. Hates picket fences and the work-a-day rat-racers. He wants to breed, but prefers inaction. He prefers to be timid. To keep doing what is safe and comfortable. He has made it a way of life. That is not about to change.
In Dostoyevsky’s “Notes from the Underground” the character is so spiteful he lost the habit of living … the habit of being human, and he has pulled into himself in his spite. These people lurk within the SS lists and other places in our community. All this back-patting. This support group like we are a bunch of fucking feminists. “Yeah, you tell ‘em sistah!” Opera Winfery style new age sissys. A male support group. A counter movement. Of the disenchanted. Of the ugly. Of the short. Of the nerds. Of the geeks. Of the circus freaks. Of those living in the rancour of their own underground. The dissatisfied. The scum of society. Those who believe themselves superior. Elephant men. Hunch
backs. Mutants. Those in the sewers. In the asylums. In the hospitals. The fat. The infertile. The disabled. The sub-human. The poor. The lepers. The sick. The lonely. Those in dark, dank places in their minds.
Jim is not the first of these I have met. He listened to me to some extent. He wants what he believes I can teach him to achieve. A life. A beautiful wife. Happiness. An end to the darkness. And he could achieve some of these things if he were willing to change who he is, but he has no interest in doing so. He enjoys the person that he is. He enjoys the solitude. He enjoys the emotions he surrounds himself in. Like a pig rolling in its own shit, he likes the mess that his life is. And so he tunes out. And hi-jacks the conversations back to the injustices he has endured as a man. I can feel the walls closing in around me as I fall into rapport with this guy and empathise with him and he talks about how fucked society is. I come inside his mind, and elicit from him. My
words are as his internal dialogue as we fall into the dance of deep rapport. And I am interested in him. I am a voyeur. He talks about himself. About how he feels. It is all about him because he feels comfortable with his brother. I try to talk about women and about how they feel. About routines. But he has no interest in how they feel … only how they make him feel. And they all make him feel horny. And they make him feel bad. And it is a bitter combination. What they feel is not in his view. It is all about him. He is the centre of his world. The main character. The protagonist in a conspiracy against him. It
is about how he feels. It is about the wife he deserves. He feels deeper, you see. And he wants to love. To love so deeply. Because he has this capacity to love that I could never understand as a fucked up player.
“But you must have SNAPPED at some stage once too, right? What, never? But the women fucked you around too, right? No? What do you mean no? Yeah, but you wanted to fuck them and they wouldn’t fuck you or are you claiming you can fuck any girl? What do you mean you don’t go out with an outcome in mind? You must. I mean optimally you would want to fuck her right? And when she doesn’t she is fucking you over, right? I mean it is FUCKING HER! No, man, it is not you! No, you have gotta listen to RJ, you are caught in a cycle that you need to break out of. Nah, mate, you can’t beat yourself up when you aren’t successful … it is what RJ teaches. What do you mean it was all because of your performance? What do you mean you were in control of the situation and should have handled it better? No, man that is bad, you can’t say that! Listen
to RJ. You can’t blame yourself. It is society that is fucked. And the
Christian Church. It is not you. What do you mean you enjoy it even when you don’t fuck her? …”
He watches me do a group approach. He sees me neg. He can’t believe it. The girl loves it! He sees me disarm the group and get her one on one. “What did you say?” he asks later. “What you don’t ask her any questions, you just talk?” But he is not really listening. He doesn’t care. He has a burning question behind his eyes that he waits for a gap in my explanation to spit out: “What did you do inside yourself before you approached? … Nothing? What do you mean? … You just approached? ” He shakes his head in miscomprehension. We are not speaking the same language anymore. Rapport is gone. He only hears what he wants to hear.
He wanted to sit in the corner to talk to me. The fact that he does not PU women in no way lessens the value of his opinion when it comes to this. He is an expert. He wants to talk about calling the bitches on their bullshit. He wants to talk about boyfriend destroyers. He wants to talk about the beautiful perfect wife that he is looking for. That wife in his future, she is not one of these BITCHES. She doesn’t play games. He talks about her as if she exists already. She is real, and he thinks of her often. And she is a lesbian too. And he will fulfil her core values when he finds her. He talks about Major Marks “Building a Better Girlfriend”. As he talks about his future, his eyes glaze over. As he talks about his past his teeth grind and tension fills his neck and shoulders. It must be hectic being Jim. I really feel for him. He
talks about his friends who are getting divorced. About how the BITCHES want his friends fucking souls! “And I read the legal documents, and I can’t believe that these are the same women that once said ‘I love you’”. He can not stay in the present. Present is no good for him. Present is a call to action. To approach. To talk. Let’s stay in the future. The future is nice and warm. Everything is perfect in the future; “What, you mean you enjoy picking up? How is it possible?” We are not the same beasts.
===============================================
“Ross, shut the fuck up. People are tired of you. You are irrelevant. Get a life and leave the community.”
What specific allegations that I’ve made about DeAngelo do you find untrue, incorrect, or less than factual?
Please cite any facts or alleged facts you might have to refute what I’ve said about DeAngelo.
I’m sure you can do that and stay on topic.
Oh…what kind of life do YOU have if you can waste time responding to me here on this blog when you obviously detest me?
Shabbat Shalom,
RJ
93/93
Ross, why do you ignore the question? You LOVE pointing out the flaws in others and calling them out. Answer the question WUSS! What happened here:
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/08.13.98/cover/speedseduction1-9832.html
??
And what happened with you dropping SS altogether?
I saw your freaky new age crap videos, they were good for a laugh. It was in those or some other overpriced, overhyped product of yours that you said you would stop doing SS seminars in a couple years. This was at least 2 or 3 years ago.
You’re an old con man Wuss, the gig is up. Leave before someone FORCES you to leave.