The Ethics of PUA — Who Owns What?
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Rants & Reviews
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 1/22/04
The recent Ross vs. Tyler battle on mASF has brought up a big controversy that has been brewing in the more elite circles lately. This is basically the issue of ACCOUNTABILITY, or who is responsible for the creation of material. This wasn’t such a big deal when everyone was just a bunch of horny losers looking to get laid who’d freely exchange ideas and theories on the topic. But once money came into the picture, it really changed the landscape of the PUA community.
In the beginning, you had Ross and SS. That was pretty much it. Then David D came along, then Mystery with his workshops, then TD, then Swinggcat, now Harmless… the list goes on. And because these are all guys who got their feet wet in the community and developed their own stuff based on the feedback and tactics of others, they are looked at very differently than an outsider who publishes a book or audio course on seduction or dating. Indeed, the paranoia has set in pretty deeply, with fingers pointing and accusations flying over TD stealing other people’s stuff and teaching it as his own, with Ross claiming Swinggcat ”stole” Push-Pull from him, with the DYD camp buckling down tighter than the Skywalker Ranch when making a Star Wars movie for fear stuff might leak out… the list goes on.
But the biggest problem comes from guys NOT making any money off this stuff. There’s been more than a few grumbles from PUAs worldwide over their material getting repackaged and sold by the commercial guys, so now they’re throwing a fit about giving credit where it’s due or just simply not sharing their material anymore, therefore stifling the flow of information.
But when it comes down to it, the whole situation is pretty laughable. People throwing fits and being paranoid about the commercial guys. It reminds me of the US/Japan automobile rivalry in the 80s. That whole ”Buy American” bullshit that circulated around the country, even though American cars were crap. The same thing is going on when Ross says TD is taking other people’s stuff and making slight modifications and observations. Who cares? In the end, the Japanese made better cars because of it. They didn’t INVENT the cars, but they IMPROVED upon them. Did America make the Japanese give them credit for inventing the car? No. No one cares. I look at it like this: If you don’t care about making money off this stuff, then why worry about people stealing your shit? Why worry about recognition? So you can be venerated as a guru by a bunch of lonely guys hoping to get laid? What kind of celebrity is that? If you do want to make money on this stuff, then make your own products so people HAVE to give you credit for using it. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
Seriously, this whole ”Give credit where credit is due, site your sources” shit is stupid. It’s like a comedian trying to copyright a joke. It’s like people that author’s steal great lines or situations from to write about in their books wanting to be paid for giving them that one little bit of inspiration when the author is the one who did all the work of writing a book. Who cares? In the long run, unless this shit is your lifeblood, like it is for Ross or TD, what do you care if people are teaching it and even making a few bucks? We’re all just guys trying to get laid, right?
In the end, I think it comes down to ego. After all, there’s nothing new under the sun. Everything this community ”comes up with” has already been thought of or existed long before we stumbled onto it. The fact is, most of the best stuff out there comes from WOMEN. If you get a great concept from a girl, are you gonna stop in the middle of a sarge and say ”I’m going intentionally undermine you, which I learned from my ex-girlfriend Mitsy.”? Of course not. That’s gay.
But none the less, the bickering and pettiness continues. I just can’t help but laugh at the comedy of it all. It reminds me so of the stupid office politics I get to partake in everyday. In the end, no one cares who came up with what…
They just want results.
Thundercat
MarvinHob on 
HenryKacle on 
ZccrCarty on 
HenryKacle on 
Axerworma on 
I never saw this post, but it’s an excellent one.
These guys want money, all these guys who want credit for saying something.
This community has gone to hell. Only those strong enough and smart enough to get this will get it. Me, I know I did it all by myself and thank god for the internet.
Thundercat, haha, man. You’re kinda like Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh with your distortions. Let’s see what kind of crap you’re writing about now:
“This wasn’t such a big deal when everyone was just a bunch of horny losers looking to get laid who’d freely exchange ideas and theories on the topic. But once money came into the picture, it really changed the landscape of the PUA community.”
There wasn’t a time when everyone “was just a bunch of horny losers”. There were real PUAs exchanging ideas for free because they wanted to improve their game even more, or just because the subject interest them. Then there were also “losers” who were learning from these exchanges, and also getting their own feedback. It wasn’t even money that changed the landscape, but rather the fact that people like Tyler began to outright steal ideas and pass them off as if they were original ideas they just came up with.
“In the beginning, you had Ross and SS. That was pretty much it. Then David D came along, then Mystery with his workshops, then TD, then Swinggcat, now Harmless… the list goes on. And because these are all guys who got their feet wet in the community and developed their own stuff based on the feedback and tactics of others, they are looked at very differently than an outsider who publishes a book or audio course on seduction or dating. Indeed, the paranoia has set in pretty deeply, with fingers pointing and accusations flying over TD stealing other people’s stuff and teaching it as his own, with Ross claiming Swinggcat ”stole” Push-Pull from him, with the DYD camp buckling down tighter than the Skywalker Ranch when making a Star Wars movie for fear stuff might leak out… the list goes on.”
Lol, you’re so obvious with your labels man. “Paranoia”, lol. It’s not paranoia, as what’s been going on is in plain view. It doesn’t take much to connect the dots. You take “Push-Pull” as an example. That is a good example of concepts that already existed and were just renamed by other people trying to gain fame or make a buck. Anyone remember Rio’s “101″ theory? How about Harmless’ “Future Adventures Projecting”? Does that sound like “Future Pacing” to anyone? Doesn’t the “Secret Society” sound awfully similar to the concept of the “Secret Slut”? Nothing new.
“But the biggest problem comes from guys NOT making any money off this stuff. There’s been more than a few grumbles from PUAs worldwide over their material getting repackaged and sold by the commercial guys, so now they’re throwing a fit about giving credit where it’s due or just simply not sharing their material anymore, therefore stifling the flow of information.”
Why should anyone share their original stuff for free anymore when some opportunistic wanker is going to sell it, and not even give credit? How is that any better than all the “layguide” scams that have popped up over the years? How is that any better than the “James Method”? lol
“In the end, the Japanese made better cars because of it. They didn’t INVENT the cars, but they IMPROVED upon them. Did America make the Japanese give them credit for inventing the car? No. No one cares.”
I have not seen much improvement in any of the concepts that have been stolen. In fact, it seems that material has just been repackaged under a different name, so your argument is shit.
“I look at it like this: If you don’t care about making money off this stuff, then why worry about people stealing your shit? Why worry about recognition? So you can be venerated as a guru by a bunch of lonely guys hoping to get laid? What kind of celebrity is that? If you do want to make money on this stuff, then make your own products so people HAVE to give you credit for using it. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.”
Why don’t YOU shut the fuck up, fatso. lol. Even if people don’t care about making money off this material, it doesn’t make it right for other people to steal it and make a profit from it– it is stolen.
” It’s like people that author’s steal great lines or situations from to write about in their books wanting to be paid for giving them that one little bit of inspiration when the author is the one who did all the work of writing a book.”
More bad analogies. This is not anything like what’s being done here. These people are not coming up with anything new. They’re just renaming old concepts, and passing them off as their own.
“In the end, I think it comes down to ego. After all, there’s nothing new under the sun. Everything this community ”comes up with” has already been thought of or existed long before we stumbled onto it.”
As far as I know, it had not been publicly compiled and centralized like it has been since around 1999 when ASF was created. Now for people to come along and just read the concepts, and change their names and sell e-books based on that is just lame.
“The fact is, most of the best stuff out there comes from WOMEN.”
Not entirely true. A lot of this has come from the experience and INTERACTION of various guys who were good with women. It’s not correct to paint this as if men are just copying women’s behaviour.
“But none the less, the bickering and pettiness continues. I just can’t help but laugh at the comedy of it all. It reminds me so of the stupid office politics I get to partake in everyday. In the end, no one cares who came up with what…
They just want results.”
There you go again with your labels. Who says it’s petty? Also, are you telling us there is not a single person who cares about who was the originator? That’s just bogus. What if they want to read the originals? What if they care about integrity? What if they’d rather get the material for free? After all, most of the paid material is available for free on either Google or fastseduction.com. Of course, do the people who benefit from this business want the newbies to know?
“After all, most of the paid material is available for free on either Google or fastseduction.com”
. . . or EDonkey, lol. download it from http://www.edonkey2000.com
reccomended searches:
David Deangelo
DYD
Thundercat
Dynamic Sex
- by Choumoux -
The concept of copyright or authorship tends to be annihilated in the internet free exchange culture.
In the specific case of our “seduction sub-culture”, people seem to be oblivious of the genius and hardwork of the pioneers (such as Ross Jeffries who put Speed Seduction together) as well as the independant and innovative contribution of a whole “next generation” of PUAs (among whom: Mystery, Tyler Durden or more “modest” guys like 2-6 himself).
Due respect for these guys!
The recognition of their legitimate creations, giving fair credit is not only a question of $ or ego, it’s also a way to make sure that the material keeps evolving in the right direction, because the inventor is motivated by the rewards
($, ego boost or simply intellectual acknowledging)
Gurus stealing ideas from each other is one thing.
Guys getting access to original copyrighted material for free is yet another thing.
I’m not judging anyone, and I must say I don’t quite follow Thundercat in his general description… just like “Observer” but I agree with Thundercat when he writes:
“…just simply not sharing their material anymore, therefore stifling the flow of information.”
In the end, new posts (on fastseduction.com, or on this very blog) will be less interesting, rich, innovative, mind challenging, fun… if the contributors, the “originators” are not respected.
It’s like protecting the environment, you do it for the environment’s sake. You ALSO do it for your own sake: survival.
My twofold conclusion:
В¤ 1/ The fact that NEW contributions may not be very useful anymore should motivate us to dig even more in ARCHIVED stuff (cf the wealth of info in fastseduction.com) and comment/experiment overlooked stuff.
В¤ 2/ The community is reaching a certain point of maturity. The content, the seduction science material has made huge progress in the past 4 years. I personally believe that this recent progress is the fruit of the interaction between different Gurus. Their competition is useful to the whole community TO THE EXTENT THAT GURUS STOP STEALING AND RENAMING EXISTING, “OLDER” CONCEPTS FOR WHATEVER REASON. It does not make any improvement. it only creates little bands and an annoying POLLUTION of our minds.
Now, don’t get me wrong.
I do think that using new labels, new concepts and new wording is necessary and useful, as long as it aims at making NEW CONTENT more easily understandable.
What’s not useful is “repackaging” existing material.
Another idea I got, was that if the general philosophy of our community gets down, interested and selfish… Only the wolves and the newbies will stay.
So eventually, we’ll keep the constant flow of newbies asking kind of stupid questions, and the only answers will come from $ based material contributions.
The guys who are the nerve of war, the experienced PUAs, the field experimentators will keep their discoveries to themselves.
I’m not complaining about good ol’ times, brothers. I just wanted to give you my gut feeling about the evolution of the community.
And since I was originally refering to copyrights, I just wanted to add that those who toil to invent stuff deserve a little support.
Just make sure you support THOSE WHO REALLY MAKE GOOD STUFF.
Oki doki… Let’s get back to GIRLS NOW!