Pick Up 101 All The Rage…

June 5, 2006 by Thundercat
Filed under Articles

There’s a pretty big write-up on the Pick-Up 101 guys in the latest San Francisco Magazine. The reporter really seemed to enjoy the workshop.

its funny, because Pick-Up 101 doesn’t really get as much press as a company like Mystery Method does, but I have yet to hear a single bad thing about their workshops. In fact, many people who take them seem to have very positive experiences close to what the reporter in the article shares (unlike some workshops which shall remain nameless, you know, the ones that start with an R and end with a D).

Those San Fran boys really seem to be kicking some ass up there. Check it out for yourself…

What does it take to get a date in this town?
San Francisco singles complain that the city is a dating wasteland, but Lance Mason is challenging us to an old-fashioned game of pickup. Doesn’t he see that men here are too busy being laid back and women too smart to be played?
By Jaimal Yogis

It’s an average afternoon at the Z. Cioccolato candy shop in North Beach. The young employees are bored stiff from hours of arranging taffy and playing with toy cows that defecate Dr. Pepper–flavored jellybeans. That is, until Jesse Hull walks in.

Jesse is a 6-foot-2-inch 33-year-old with a goatee and dark, curly hair that he pins back with, not one, but two pairs of sunglasses. He’s flaunting blue and gray snakeskin shoes, Diesel jeans, and a see-through button-down with fishlike creatures embroidered on it. It’s a style pickup artists like Jesse call peacocking, a way to set yourself apart from the masses.

Jesse is one of the many acolytes of Lance Mason, the number-one pickup artist in the Bay Area. As founder of PickUp 101, a two-year-old company that teaches men how to flirt, date, and generally pick up women, transforming average guys into flawless ladies’ men, Mason is the leader of San Francisco’s new posse of PUAs. I’m hanging out with Jesse after my first day at one of Mason’s workshops, which I am studiously observing.

If you haven’t heard of PUAs, you will. You may have already slept with one. They’re men who spend incredible amounts of time zealously analyzing what to wear, say, and do to attract the opposite sex. Yes, there have always been ladies’ men, but the new cultlike community of pickup artists is more than that. Using psychological games and other tactics, based partly on primate behavioral patterns and partly on Tom Cruise and James Dean moves, they’re developing a pseudoscience that is sweeping the nation. Many PUAs post their results and theories in chat rooms like MysteryMethod.com, teach workshops like Mason’s, and brag about their exploits and abilities to pick up high-profile women like Britney Spears and Paris Hilton.

Last year, Neil Strauss released The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists. The best-selling book, with its embossed cover resembling a bible, became an instant cult classic. “The PUA thing has grown exponentially since the book,” says Strauss, who is heralded as the number-one PUA in the country, having seduced innumerable women before meeting his current girlfriend, the blonde guitarist for Courtney Love. “In the past, I believed there were guys who had it and guys who didn’t,” says Strauss. “But once you find out that it can be learned, everything changes.”

As sleazy as the PUA trend may sound, San Francisco certainly needs something to pull itself out of its dating doldrums. The city has long been a notoriously difficult place to meet people. According to a poll conducted by San Francisco magazine in 2003, over half of singles say it’s harder to hook up here than anywhere else. In a city of cliques, we fall into ruts and forget it’s possible to fall in love with someone with different politics, career goals, or tattoos. Men let their deeply rooted PC fear of objectifying women prevent them from approaching them. Online dating seemed like a solution, but it often dissolves into the tedious task of rï¿½sumï¿½ swapping, rarely providing the chemistry-induced adrenaline rush that good old-fashioned flirting does.

Still, many women are understandably turned off by the whole idea of PUAs. “Lines are disingenuous,” says Lisa, a 26-year-old graduate student I met in a café in Oakland. “I don’t use them, and I don’t want guys to use them.” Moreover, Bay Area women accuse the men here of flighty relationship hopping, and PickUp 101 may exacerbate the problem. Practice makes perfect, and some women could end up as lab rats for a zealous PUA climbing the chick ladder, hoping each conquest will be better than the last.

But Mason offers more than “a line,” in part because he knows the women here are different. “They’re smart, independent, and they have their lives together,” he says, “and they expect the same from men.” With a reputation in the PUA world for sincerity, his style is more Bay Area–friendly than most. While he teaches routines for beginners, he encourages men to abandon those routines once they feel comfortable enough to rely on their own instincts.

But even if Mason’s weird science does work, what guy is going to humble himself to take a class on meeting women? When I first heard about Mason’s workshops, I imagined a room of clueless Silicon Valley techies and Marina Triangle slicksters bragging about how fast they can get women into bed. But I discovered that these guys, like most of us, are simply looking for validation from attractive people—they’re just being more proactive about getting it.

Z. Cioccolato is supposed to be my first chance to observe a PUA in action, but suddenly Jesse is pushing me to participate. I’m terrified and uncomfortable. Even if I do get lucky, it feels a bit wrong to hit on strangers for sport. But the first thing PUAs learn is that women want to be picked up. As Will Smith says in Hitch: “No woman wakes up saying, ‘God, I hope I don’t get swept off my feet today.’” Besides, Jesse claims to have once been shy himself, unable to meet women who weren’t friends of friends. But now he’s acting like he owns the place.

Jesse locks in on his target, a darkly tanned clerk who’s arranging stuffed animals. I follow, my lower back in a knot, a response Mason says happens when we try to be “cooler than we are.” This is why, I’m now realizing, PUAs-in-training need routines.

“I’m looking for a gift for my 8-year-old niece,” Jesse says, using step one from one of the pickup routines he learned from Mason. “Any recommendations?” The girl points to some T-shirts, “Paris Hilton really likes these.”

Jesse now has to get her laughing: “Are you kidding? I don’t want my niece dressing like Paris Hilton!” The comment is also a subtle “neg,” a PUA term for a line that playfully cuts a woman down but doesn’t actually hurt her feelings. Negs make the suitor seem less needy, and differentiates him from every other guy fawning over her. The girl laughs on cue, and Jesse slaps her a high five, establishing “kino,” PUA-speak for touch. Jesse squeezes her hand—a test—and she squeezes back, signaling that he should move on to building rapport.

Suddenly, the young woman working the fudge counter slingshots a stuffed monkey at Jesse’s head—she seems to want to flirt, too. He catches it like Willie Mays, in a move that screams alpha confidence.

Impressed, I try my luck with an overly made-up 20-something woman who just walked in with her mother. “This stuff is great, but it’s hard to get out of the sheets,” the mother whispers, pointing to some body chocolate. Attempting to create banter, I weigh in: “Totally, it’s so sticky.” The daughter chuckles and touches my shoulder—kino—an invitation to flirt more. But I clam up, acting like what PUAs call an AFC: average frustrated chump. Jesse notices and swings in with backup. “Uh-oh, here come the party girls,” he calls out to the women as they turn toward him. Somehow, it works. They giggle and start chatting with him. The employees laugh. Anyone walking into the shop would immediately notice that Jesse is controlling the room. In fact, after a grandmother toddles in, it takes just a few flirty lines before she proposes to him. “Oh my god,” says the fudge clerk, beaming. “Who is this guy?” Jesse leans over to me and says: “Imagine. Life could be like this all the time.”

I first arrive at the PickUp 101 “mansion” on a Friday morning. It’s really just an apartment on Powell Street, but PUAs like to call their homes mansions: if you aspire to be Hugh Hefner, you have to psych yourself up. Inside, it’s a bit of a disco frat pad: a velvet love seat sits invitingly in the corner near a tropical aquarium and a wooden wine rack. A disco ball hangs above black leather couches, which frame a gas fireplace with flames leaping up from behind crackled glass.

Eleven men, who have traveled from as far away as New York and as nearby as the Marina, sit patiently, hoping that this $1,700, three-day workshop will help them reach their full player potential. Most of them are software engineers, but there’s also a lawyer, an actor, a professional gambler, and a firefighter. They run the gamut from attractive and stylish to dorky and clueless. Since this is an advanced class, the students have all been to at least one other pickup class before, so they know the jargon. As “Rico Suave” and “Sex Machine” blare in the background, I hear guys say things like, “I opened this three-set but was forgetting to kino. Luckily, Bob was winging for me, and he distracted her friends so I could isolate and run the cube.” It’s the kind of language you’d expect at a Dungeons & Dragons conference, not in a rehash of last night’s exploits.

Mason runs different types of trainings, covering everything from how to dress to managing multiple relationships, but this weekend is on Day Game. The more common Night, or Bar, Game involves being entertaining and overtly sexual, but Day Game is more subtle and thus more difficult. The key is establishing an emotional connection without seeming creepy. “Nothing kills attraction faster than being creepy,” says Mason.

Mason, 33, has big, sensitive blue eyes that have made hundreds, if not thousands, of women swoon. His smile says all-American farm boy, but his dress—faded jeans with a massive belt buckle and a button-down with an embroidered ram on the sleeve—reads like an Esquire take on California frat. He’s charismatic and charming; his posture exudes confidence.

But that wasn’t always so. As a UC Davis engineering student, Mason was a total AFC. He had had two long-term relationships with girlfriends who chose him more than he chose them. He was dissatisfied, but afraid to break up.

At the time that his brother was getting a divorce, his second girlfriend was pressuring him into marriage. That’s when things started to click. “I realized deciding who to spend my life and raise a family with is the most important decision of my life,” Mason says over lunch at the Steps of Rome Caffe, a restaurant known for its flirty waiters. “I needed to make it the focus of my life.”

Like a mad scientist, Mason threw himself into learning everything he could about women. He read books, studied films, and approached women constantly, logging what worked and what didn’t. Before long, he says, about half the women he approached were accepting his advances, but he didn’t want a relationship yet. He spent seven years learning about himself and what he wanted in a woman. He established some guidelines. No going out on three dates in a row—that’s how you fall in love. “I recommend everyone date multiple people at once before settling down,” says Mason. “That way, you see your partners for who they really are, rather than projecting onto them.”

Then in 2002, he discovered a community of guys who were studying the same thing. While it had not yet gone mainstream with the release of The Game, the PUA community was holding workshops and posting blogs. Mason signed up for a class with Mystery, the most hyped PUA at the time. Strauss, who was working with Mystery then, says Mason popped out as a star. Mason quickly gained a reputation as a skilled ladies’ man who had a mastery of the pickup techniques but also maintained his respect for women. Men started coming to him for advice on everything from maintaining a marriage to initiating threesomes. After a while he didn’t have time to respond to all the e-mails and phone calls, so he quit his computer job and started PickUp 101. Now in its second year, his business is quickly expanding, with nearly 10,000 people receiving his regular e-mails, and 30 workshops a year held here and in New York. Every workshop is booked solid.

It’s easy to see why PickUp 101 is attracting so many men. Mason’s motto is “Ladies’ men aren’t born; they’re made.” He helps guys looking for more action or even a wife, but also men who are depressed or too terrified to talk to women. “Half of it’s confidence,” Mason says. “If you’re not good with women, then early on you probably experienced failure, and each failure reinforced that you were not good with women. I teach men how to be cooler than they think they are.”

Mason sells himself as proof that it’s possible. “I’ll walk into a bar and establish rapport with a woman,” he says in his opening speech of the workshop, “and I don’t care if Brad Pitt walks in and makes out with her. When she goes to bed that night, she’s going to be thinking about that moment with me. That’s how powerful this stuff is.” What man wouldn’t be intrigued?

For our first day, Mason has created communication exercises for the students; they rotate among stations and act out hypothetical situations, overseen by Mason and his assistants, many of whom were once students themselves. Since it’s only men, they all take turns in the female roles, creating moments most women would pay to see. “So how did that feel when I touched your elbow?” asks Eric, a New Yorker with a Sting haircut, after running a pretend pickup on George, an actor. “Well, I liked the way it felt,” George says earnestly, “but you were a little too close to me, which felt invasive.”

At one station, men rehearse “deep rapport” stories—tales about their past that show their sensitive side. Mason says they’re one of the most powerful ways to quickly build a connection. “I don’t even use these stories with women anymore,” he says. “I don’t want them to get too attached.”

The deep-rapport stories flow for over an hour, creating a full-fledged therapy session. Alex, a former opera singer, tears up as he recounts singing Beethoven in Spain. Jesse weeps while describing a relative’s death. When I ask Jesse if it’s disingenuous to be rehearsing a supposedly sincere moment, he takes my question seriously. “We all have stories we tell over and over because they explain what we’re about deep down,” Jesse says. “Just because we tell them a lot, or even rehearse them, doesn’t make them less sincere.”

But it’s more than learning what to say. “You can have the worst line ever,” Mason explains, “but if you create a powerful impression with your body language, you can make any line work.” Throughout the day, he spends hours correcting the way the students walk, stand, speak, and breathe. “It’s not that hard to be the coolest guy in the room when you know this stuff,” says Mason. The tips are obvious—shoulders back, smile when entering a room, make eye contact—but it’s amazing how difficult it is for the students to break their simple habits of slouching and frowning.

Saturday: time to put the skills to the test. After a couple more hours of rehearsal and a brief round of chanting “Let’s go meet some women” along to the Rocky theme song, the class is sent out to Union Square, the San Francisco Centre mall, and the Marina. I hit Union Square with Dominic, a 33-year-old professional gambler from Cleveland. Before Dominic discovered PickUp 101 a few months ago, he rarely left the house. He’s a big guy—240 pounds—with acting skills that are worse than Keanu Reeves’s on a bad day. But he already looks less robotic than yesterday, and more important, he’s willing to try. Half of pickup is approaching people. Dominic sees two tall, sleekly dressed women buying coffee, and he pounces, using the three-step opening combo he’s been practicing all morning.

“Excuse me,” he asks, “do you have the time?”

“Uh, sure,” one responds disinterestedly. “It’s 1:30.”

“Thanks,” Dominic says. “I should hire you as my personal assistant. You could, like, help me plan my day. Wait a minute, can you type?”

The woman says nothing. Her friend cuts in. “I think you can do that yourself.” And they walk away.

Ouch. The lines came off too stiff, which, according to Mason, equals creepy. I run up for moral support, expecting Dominic to be sulking. But he’s smiling. “At least I tried,” he says. “This is actually kind of fun.” And therein lies one of the biggest secrets of pickup: realizing that rejection isn’t that bad.

Wandering Union Square, I see more of Mason’s students scouting for live test material. I follow Gordon, a 39-year-old programmer from the South Bay. He’s 5 feet 8 inches with a pudgy, round belly, but he’s wearing a pair of Stacy Adams alligator-skin shoes, which he says bring him luck. He’s approaching a woman in a puffy gold jacket, who is standing by the heart sculpture across from the Westin St. Francis. With her athletic body wrapped in tight designer jeans, she’s way out of his league. “Don’t even try,” I want to shout after Gordon as he strides ahead. But it’s too late.

“Hey, do you know where an ATM is?” he asks.

“I don’t know. I think over there,” the woman responds, pointing vaguely toward Market Street.

“You don’t know, do you? Damn, I was totally going to hire you as my tour guide,” he jokingly replies.

The woman laughs.

“So you’re not from around here are you?” he asks, touching her shoulder.

“No, I’m from Vienna, but I just moved here three months ago,” she says with a smile.

Gordon takes the bait. “You know what I love about this city….”

Oh my god, I think. It’s working. Short, pudgy Gordon is getting positive feedback from the sexiest woman in sight. He’s standing up straight and leaning back slightly so as not to convey neediness, and looking pretty slick in an innocent kind of way. After talking to her for a solid hour, he leaves with a phone number and a date for Monday night. We high-five, and I see how this can become an addiction. Pickup is the perfect male bonding exercise: half the rush is showing off.

After four hours out in the field, the PUAs retreat to the mansion. The place is abuzz with stories of phone number exchanges and comical rejections. “I just never thought any women would want to talk to a guy with my body type,” says Alex, a PickUp 101 convert who subsequently quit his high-paying tech job to work for Mason full time. Mike, a fit, attractive Marina guy in square, wire-rimmed glasses who had been fumbling all his lines during the morning practice sessions, seems especially happy. He approached a woman and, deciding to just toss his lines, told her how beautiful she was. She gave him her e-mail address. “She just opened up,” Mike says in disbelief. “It was amazing.”

Not everyone had success—i.e., digits—but everyone had a good time. Part of Mason’s strategy is to get his students to be more social in general, so the guys talked to all kinds of strangers, not just beautiful women. “It’s amazing how much we feel like we’re in these little boxes, separated from everyone,” says Daniel, one of Mason’s first students, “but we’re just not.”

The next day, Mason brings in women to offer feedback. One of them is Yuko Yamazaki, Mason’s girlfriend, whom he met at a 24 Hour Fitness seven months ago. A no-nonsense, 26-year-old software engineer who struts around in high-heeled boots and a miniskirt, she doesn’t seem the type to fall for canned lines. I can’t resist asking what she thought of Mason’s initial pickup. She says he asked how her iPod worked while she was lifting weights—not exactly what one expects from one of the best pickup artists in the country. But his body language must have been good. “After he got my phone number, I went and called my friends,” Yamazaki tells me, blushing. “I told them, ‘I just met the smoothest guy ever.’”

She’s a big fan of PickUp 101 and helps out at many of the events. “Some of my friends think it’s weird,” she says. “But when they meet Lance, they see that he’s helping men treat women better.”

The other female assistants, who found the company through a job posting on Craigslist, are fans as well. “Guys need it,” says Luanne Hernandez, a bubbly 22-year-old who has worked at two other PickUp 101 workshops. “Women get good advice from Cosmo and their friends, but guys don’t have anything.”

Hearing from these two makes the whole thing seem less scandalous, and the more I ask women what they think, the better I feel about it all. “I think it’s necessary and called for,” says Natalie Mock, a 28-year-old from Berkeley who says guys try to pick up on her all the time at her restaurant job. “Most guys just go off their instincts, which is generally a bad idea. If these classes are done in a way that’s thoughtful to the woman, then I support it.”

Even skeptics are getting converted. “Dolly,” author of the popular sex blog The Truth about Cocks and Dolls, was put off by PUAs at first. But after she met more, including two from San Francisco, she wrote a letter to the Village Voice defending them, in response to the paper’s negative article on the subject in March. “PUAs try to create a fun, positive, and exciting experience for the woman,” Dolly wrote. “The credo many follow is ‘Leave her better than you found her.’ What’s so bad about that? That they want to get laid, too? Guess what? Guys have always wanted sex and will continue to want sex. You can’t fault them for finally discovering methods that are successful.”

To further inspire us for day three, Mason shows a clip of a true natural: playboy Howard Hughes, as played by Leonardo DiCaprio in The Aviator. In the scene, he picks up a cigarette girl, using many of the techniques Mason teaches, creating a near-orgasmic sexual tension in under two minutes. “Hughes is better than me,” Mason admits. “Hollywood understands attraction. You guys can learn from this.”

Watching DiCaprio, I’m intrigued by the power of these techniques and eager to cash in on the action. I hit the women’s shoe section at Macy’s. After making several methodical laps, I force myself to approach a woman in light brown, knee-high leather boots. She’s the exact type I never approach cold: stylish, confident, gorgeous. I want to try the “movie-moment method” on her, a technique in which the suitor says something fearless like, “There’s just something about you. I had to meet you.” But I wimp out.

“Those shoes really bring out your skin color,” I say, smiling and standing tall. “You think they have them in baby blue for me?”

“Really?” she says, and I remember that I’m in San Francisco. What was I thinking?

“No, I just came over here to flirt with you,” I tell her, using a line I saw Jesse try.

“Oh, OK,” she says, laughing, but perhaps slightly intimidated.

At this point I’m supposed to transition into building rapport, but this woman’s beauty is making me forget the techniques. Luckily, she initiates more banter.

“Look at my crazy teal socks,” she says.

I remember to toss out a “warm read,” an intuitive comment based on observation. “Oh, I see. Those must be, like, your inner playfulness hiding behind your cool exterior.” Warm reads are what PUAs call chick crack, and indeed, she giggles.

“Yeah, I guess that’s true.”

She likes me. She really, really likes me. But just when it’s getting good, her family arrives. “Well, nice meeting you. I’m shopping with my family today. Have a good day.” We wave and smile. She’s gone.

My confidence boosted, I spend the day approaching women everywhere—Macy’s, H&M, Borders. I’m not going for phone numbers yet, just having basic conversations: baby steps. A tall, stunning brunette exiting Macy’s seems genuinely touched when I run across the street to tell her she’s beautiful, but she says she has a serious boyfriend. A pale, leggy woman wandering Union Square entertains an awkward 10-minute conversation, but won’t offer me any IOIs—indicators of interest—so I abandon ship. But no matter. I’m having an epiphany: I can talk to anyone.

But then, eerily, I run into two guys from Real Social Dynamics, another local pickup group that hosts trainings every weekend. I watch as the short, unshaven guy with an annoying accent and his friend sporting black nail polish and lots of jewelry—classic peacocking—approach two Scandinavian-looking girls who have already been hit on by PickUp 101 guys. I’m with Daniel, one of Mason’s assistants, and he explains how their techniques differ, as if they’re from a rival kung fu school. “We don’t try to entertain the girl as much. They’re acting like it’s a club in the middle of Union Square.”

It turns out that Mystery Method, one of the most well-known PUA groups, is also running a workshop here this weekend. How many Howard Hughes aspirants can Union Square hold at once?

A few minutes later, the Scandinavian girls see me scribbling in a notebook and run up to find out what the hell is going on. “Excuse me,” one says, tapping my shoulder. “Guys keep approaching us saying weird things, and I just saw one of them hiding a video camera.” It was inevitable: they’ve spotted Derek, the PickUp 101 intern, trying to film a live pickup to be analyzed later for training purposes. I’m not sure if I should blow the guys’ cover, but I had run Mason’s techniques on the girls myself earlier that day, and my guilt gets the better of me. I admit what’s going on, expecting to get slapped, but instead they’re into it. “That’s so cool,” they say. “Teach us how to pick up on guys.” Apparently, they don’t read Cosmo in Sweden.

I chastise myself briefly for getting involved in this cult, but only until I spot a petite blonde in a head scarf. She has huge blue eyes and she’s handing out fliers on the corner of Stockton and Post; it’s a perfect opportunity to talk. I beeline toward her, tossing aside my qualms, but run head-on into another moral quandary. She’s a Hare Krishna, and her fliers explain the group’s tenets; soon I’m debating human potential and the cosmos with her. She tries to make me a “servant of Krishna,” but her body language is terrible. Besides, getting converted to one cult is enough for a weekend.

I remember a cute girl I saw yesterday working at the Borders cafï¿½ and go find her. I had complimented her on her tattoo, but then chickened out and left without making conversation. She’s not stereotypically beautiful, but there is something irresistible about her short, curly hair, square glasses, and nose piercing.

This has to be executed perfectly, I tell myself as I walk toward the cafï¿½ like a cowboy strolling into the O.K. Corral, not showing an ounce of indecision.

“I saw you yesterday,” I say in an unusually low voice. “And I had to come back and talk to you.”

She smiles, and before she even says a word, I know that I’ve succeeded. Soon, we’re exchanging contact info, and Jesse, who just happens to be in Borders coaching another student, watches the whole thing.

“That was awesome,” he says afterward with a brotherly high five.

Every successful pickup builds on itself. I feel so on my game that when I walk downstairs to the magazine section and see the woman I met earlier at Macy’s, my lines come naturally.

“Hey, are you stalking me?” I joke.

“I think you’re stalking me,” she says, jabbing me.

And we chat. When she asks me what I do, I have a rehearsed answer from one of Mason’s identity exercises. The key is to set yourself apart. “I’m really lucky right now because I get to surf all the time,” I say. “Ever since I was a little kid, I’ve dreamed of being a surfer.”

By saying this, instead of just telling her I’m a freelance writer who has written about surfing, I’m surprising her—and showing my sensitive side, appearing vulnerable. Correspondingly, she opens up and tells me about her childhood in the Bay Area, Guam, and Hawaii. The surfing line was a good call. When the conversation ends, she offers me her e-mail address. “So if you’re ever in San Antonio, let me know,” she says, grinning.

“OK. Great!” I say, dazed. “Wait—San Antonio?” As a typical Bay Area commitmentphobe, my first reaction is relief: the pressure is off. But then I find myself religiously checking my e-mail, hoping for a reply from her—or the Borders barista. No dice.

Turns out flirty banter is one thing, but closing the deal is another. Mason reminds us that even with a killer pickup, you need the personality to back it up. But I refuse to believe I don’t have what it takes. Still, instead of replies from my crushes, my in-box is filled with e-mails from Mason, reminding me that another $1,700 workshop could get me closer to the perfect pickup. Hmmm. For now, I think I’ll stick to my instincts—Mason’s mansion is always there if I need it.

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Comments

442 Responses to “Pick Up 101 All The Rage…”

NlpRapist says:

June 9, 2006 at 5:20 am

That you say I somehow “deserved” the defamatio and harassment in this thread above me is something I’ll make sure the media sees as evidence of how a man who thinks he’s so much “better” behaves.

LOL…yeah Ray, the media hangs on your every word.
Did you actually call the court house over the clerk comment?
Man you really are a morron.

Guys, can you imagine…you get a call from this guy who says they are talking about me on the web, saying ya’ll make fun of me….fucking priceless.
If they didn’t think you were an idiot, they sure do now.
That comment always fires him up, I pulled it on him last year, same result…you are so predictable….hehe.

Thats it Ray, sue every poster on this board…I want that suit with 100,000 John Does……keep it coming, sooner or later, the courts will give up and commit you.

And he wonders WHY no one likes him or his shit….would you trust or buy from a raving lunatic like this?….

Take your meds Ray!
Iceman says:

June 9, 2006 at 6:27 am

For the financial sake of Ray Gordon’s lawyer I sure hope he’s not implementing a ‘no win – no pay’ policy.

http://smartmoneyguide.blogspot.com
NlpRapist says:

June 9, 2006 at 6:49 am

For the financial sake of Ray Gordon’s lawyer I sure hope he’s not implementing a ‘no win – no pay’ policy.

Ray doesn’t have a lawyer. Hes pro se on all his suits.
Have you read any of his many pleading before the courts?
Theres NO lawyer going to take his suits….go read them….its a wild trip down the rabbit hole man..:)

Plus he doesn’t have the means to hire a lawyer if one would even take him.
Iceman says:

June 9, 2006 at 6:53 am

LOL I see the words ‘Career Suicide’ coming to mind here…

http://smartmoneyguide.blogspot.com
NlpRapist says:

June 9, 2006 at 8:05 am

LOL I see the words ‘Career Suicide’ coming to mind here…

Ray can dish it out, but he can’t take it. Everywhere he posts it ends up like this, with him trying to sue everyone.

He has a BIG problem with his own words being used against him. HE deleated about 900 or so posts from google that he made in various newsgroups.
What kind of man is it, that can’t stand behind his own words…words SO BAD, that he has to nuke them.

He used to try other methods long ago, like he would stop posting to the groups if people didn’t accept him and his ideas…lol, which of course is what everyone wanted.
He didn’t stay gone long…then he created a foxhunters newsgroup and was going to stay there, but there was never any posts…so much for followers, huh.
Then he threatened to kill himself, which he didn’t do of course. Now that one brought out the good in the people he had insulted, they tried to help him. A few days later hes back insulting them again.

Then he came up with the lawsuit theme to try and silence those that would dare to disagree with him. It worked for awhile, until case after case was DISMISSED.
mAN YOU SHOULD READ SOME OF THE COMMENTS that the judges made about him…prettyyy bad.

So here we are now, LAWSUIT RAY still at it, hoping to find a gold coin in a bucket of mud.

I ask you, what kind of woman would even consider hanging out with a man like this?
Personally, I don’t think he has been laid in over ten years.
Certainly not the 9 and 10 he says he is constantly pulling.

Look at his posting history in google….from that it looks like the man NEVER even leaves his mothers apartment.

All that aside I do LOVE fucking with him….it really puts a smile on my face some days….:)
NlpRapist says:

June 9, 2006 at 10:05 am

Hey Ross!

I got you beat on cats…;)

Got a black “alleycat” about 8 months ago…got her trained.

1. She will give me a kiss when I come home, actually jump up on my lap, kiss on the mouth and run off.

Heres the kicker:
2. I’ve taught her how to fetch.
I throw a wadded up cig. pack and she will go get it, bring it back and drop it in my hand. The record is 17 times in a row…damn good huh..:)

Looks like Ray is gone, Thundy must have finally banned the useless coward. hoo ahh.
Truffaut says:

June 9, 2006 at 10:31 am

Guys,

I’m looking for someone to teach me seduction. But I’m not looking for just anyone. He must meet the following essential requirements:

He MUST be a middle-aged man who still lives with his mommy.

He MUST still be a virgin.

He MUST know how to play chess.

He MUST have experience using the internet.

He MUST have low self esteem and be socially awkward.

Does anyone know where I can find such a person?
Truffaut says:

June 9, 2006 at 10:47 am

Ray Gordon leaves his mommy’s house to buy a 12 pack of Bud: Film at 11
ForcedToRegister says:

June 9, 2006 at 10:57 am

MAN, I FEEL BAD POSTING THIS AFTER SUCH A GOOD POST NLP, B/C IT MIGHT MAKE YOURS GET LOST IN BETWEEN ALL THE TEXT FOR NEW READERS. Well here goes:

“Lairs are linked to commercial interests. How about we talk to the exes themselves?”

-Unrealistic.

—————————-
“Exactly who?”

-I’m not putting someone else on the spotlight. I’m letting you know though that there are people there if you want to know the truth.

——————————–
“How convenient.”

-And realistic.

———————————
“LTRs are for AFCs. How about he prove she hasn’t cut his balls off by speaking for himself? Will she ALLOW him to?”

-Now it’s getting funny. You’re so far off and any student who’s been through a workshop can tell that’s not the case. This is sounding too desparate for me.

———————————
“Which SPECIFIC tactics were used?”

-Ummm, a lot. I don’t have every tactic from meet to lay and I’m not posting them here. Certainly not for you.

You can think what you want of my responses, but the rest of the readers, the ones I care about will see reasonableness in it them, I think.

———————————-
“I was talking about his access to the market, through channels that cut off most of his competitors. Real men would never do that.”

-Ha. That’s your take on it. What did you or him do differently so that he has access and you don’t?

———————————-
“A man with a long history of fucking chicks is a good bet to “move on.” The problem? The woman AGES when this happens, and if she doesn’t wind up married, she loses several of her best years”

-Yes, we understand this. I said he either moves on or marries. Whatever. Where’s the problem

———————————–
“What kind of an asshole thinks he speaks for everyone that way anyhow?”

-Fair statement to say since no one seems to be complaining. OBVIOUSLY, when I say “no one” it doesn’t mean every other single person the face of this planet. Other readers get that. (and I did say “seem to” in that paragraph).

———————————–
“I’m not the one excluding equal competition in this marketplace, or profiting from it while acting like the imbalance doesn’t exist.”

-Why should he limit himself in where he advertises just for you?
If you have a problem with a site that doesn’t let you advertise take it up with them. That seems cry-baby to me to blame Lance.

———————————-
“Or is the answer to my question “no.”"

-The answer is an implied no, because it’s unrealistic.
I didn’t say I’ve seen him with hot women as proof he’s getting laid. It’s simply the limit of what I’ve observed b/c I don’t follow him into the bedroom.

————————————-
Me: “”-What relationship status should a guy who’s really good with women have in your opinion?”"

-You avoided the question.

————————————-
“For women, it’s clear that marriage without premarital sex is necessary for her to avoid being used like a cheap slut,”

-Woah, you’re behind on the times.

—————————————-
“where no one trusts anyone”

-I’ll certainly still have trust in my relationships.

—————————————–
“Me: I don’t know the history you have with different sites, but nothing I’ve seen has made me think negative comments or behaviors toward you are unjustified (then again, I haven’t seen them all).”

Ray:You’re weaseling here, trying to avoid saying shit you know would get you sued and which you wouldn’t dare try on anyone else.

If that’s your idea of a “better man” you need a reality check.”

-What I said is the truth. I’m letting you know I’m not biased with past history here. I didn’t hear about you until this thread. You should see the posts I write elsewhere, they’re even more technical sounding.

Interesting you immediately pick up on how well you can sue.

Yet, you still cap on people for not saying something that you can take action against???

***A real man does not keep people at bay from saying what they really feel by threatening lawsuits***

—————————————-
“That she says no more says as much as her saying stuff would.”

-If you’re interested in what you want to believe, as opposed to the truth, then believe that.

—————————————
Not that I really feel like going through the pages of posts to find the inaccuracies, so I just scanned for first one I saw “You’re just getting hired guns to soothe your shattered ego if you’re like most who attend these things.” What does this mean?

—————————————–
“So you’ve only seen him at his job then, and not in any extended setting.”

-You’re underestimating people’s ability to get a feel for people.

——————————————-
“They are connected, since the presence of a good or bad teacher will alter the grade curve.”

-I’m sure the med students have missed out on a great instructor before, too. Some student who didn’t get a scholarship or good enough loan that never made it to med school, surgeon training, and instructor training. It affected the grade curve too. Oh, well.

————————————–
“You just showed a flaw that will manifest itself in your results with women in the future.”

-In your opinion. It seems you haven’t established crediblity with most people here, though, including me. And I have a lot of flaws. I’m still better than before, though.

————————————
“If he ignores an injustice from which he profits, that’s not.”

-The injustice is a matter of opinion. Maybe even of political view on what constitutes fair marketing.

————————————–
“That is the next logical step for the assistant instructors, is it not?”

-They’re not assistant instructors. They’re stand-ins who give feedback. You’re view of this is inaccurate. If strippers could help me better approach the kind of lifestyle and success with women I want, why would I care if they were women or men? Why should I?

—————————————
“I know what a pivot is.”

-Then why were you using the term incorrectly and then said “that’s what you think” or something like that when I told you they weren’t pivots.

—————————————
“You don’t see the gurus when they aren’t at work, obviously.”

-Yeah, sometimes students do. They’re out a lot. Believe what you want, though.

—————————————-
“If you want to pretend that someone lying about you wouldn’t bother you or that you wouldn’t refute it, go ahead with that lie.”

-It’s the things that set you off and the way you go about it that turns me (and I’m sure others) off.

—————————————
“The joke’s on you, actually, because you should be fucking centerfolds if you earn even $50k a year.”

-Phew, I don’t earn that much. Saved.

—————————————-
“Say, who are you fucking that makes you so much better now that you spent all that money?”

-Girls that I’m happier with than I was before the workshop. And I’m still getting better. If you have material to add, I’m sure other workshop students would be interested, but only if you seem like someone they’d want to learn from.

—————————————–
“Well, if a man wants to ignore someone on those grounds even if he could have learned to fuck 10s, I guess he showed me!”

-Depends on what his priorities are. Also, you haven’t shown that you can get your students to fuck 10s (not that it’s only about the sex and looks).

—————————————–
“Any decision making process based on emotion rather than objective analysis of the methods speaks for itself.”

-I do care about the character of my instructor, though.

——————————————
“It’s the truth, however, you had to BUY your way into the PUA circle.”

-Dude, I already addressed this. Yeah, I was socially stunted, so decided to do something about it.

——————————————-
“Did any PUAs teach you for free?”

-Yes, a number of them. You have a different view of the world than I do and will see people ONLY trying to take your money. I’ll see people who do want to make a good living but are also interested in helping, often for free (after the workshop).

—————————————–
“Why the need to defend? And at this length?”

-I don’t want others to get turned off by in inaccurate view of it by someone who hasn’t been through a workshop. And I OFTEN do posts like these. I don’t post on too many topics, but will rebuttle.

——————————————————
“That you say I somehow “deserved” the defamatio and harassment in this thread above me is something I’ll make sure the media sees as evidence of how a man who thinks he’s so much “better” behaves.”

Your actions must have somehow led to where you are now. I know it’s a bit of a truism, but I think it make sense. You go to the media. Post a link or quote when it gets printed.

TELL ME. How am I trashing competitors?

—————————————————-

You had some potentially good comments and distinction in game you could have added at the very beginning, but you’re just all over the place now. I don’t think I need to defend PU101 anymore on here, because readers can judge for themselves.

————————————————–

As for Lance talking for himself, I doubt it’s because it’s pussy whipped. That doesn’t make sense as a reason not to.

I bet the reason is that he doesn’t need to. People who are secure in the business don’t come on websites like this to try and change the mind of one guy, who is apparently a competitor.

——————-

The rest of your replies seem to be summarized in
He’s rich and gets laid. & He’s using student’s money.
Stuff we know and accept as reality.
NlpRapist says:

June 9, 2006 at 10:58 am

Guys,

I’m looking for someone to teach me seduction. But I’m not looking for just anyone. He must meet the following essential requirements:

He MUST be a middle-aged man who still lives with his mommy.

“I know of one that fits the above and got his ass beat by his elderly mothers boyfreind too.”

He MUST still be a virgin.

“Nope this guy got an STD on his first encounter.”

He MUST know how to play chess.

“This guy can play but hes no master or anything..just average.”

He MUST have experience using the internet.

“This guy is REALLY GOOD at that. Plus he knows 100 ways to piss off other internet users.”

He MUST have low self esteem and be socially awkward.

“This guy is a PERFECT example of that, he should be studied under controlled conditions.”

Does anyone know where I can find such a person?

“Damn you are in luck! HE got a method called…skank hunting I think. Its real simple though, you can learn in one night!!. All you need is a freind “pivot”@, a chess board,a bag of greasy prawns, and a bib to wipe the drinks off your face. Oh and a copy of THE GAME. Its a book about REAL MEN, who fuck the BEST women over and over.”

“Hes even got an “Anti-Man” method that you can use on REAL PUA’s. You know those annoying guys that get the BEST women, over and over.”

“Anyway I heard its real cheap, some of it is free, like an AOL disk, and only 20.00 for the REALLY GOOD STUFF. I don’t know much about that, its super secret stuff. I heard that if you use it, even HOOKERS can’t resist you…No Really!!”

“I highly recommend it, because if you buy it, its some kind of thing where you are buying him to for life!!!. I don’t know if that means if he does the dishes, takes out the trash, or gives head…just not really sure…sorry..:(. BUT, hes well connected with powerful people, like judges, and shrinks. They said some really mean nasty things about him, but I think it was a joke, like a roast or something.”

GOOD LUCK!! or I should say..GAME OVER!!!!!!!!!
NlpRapist says:

June 9, 2006 at 11:14 am

The joke’s on you, actually, because you should be fucking centerfolds if you earn even $50k a year.”

-Phew, I don’t earn that much. Saved.

Shaking head….yeah money is all you need to get hot babes. You don’t need to talk to them….how convenient for a guy who DOES NOT know how to talk to women.

His lack of ablility and knowledge of women is as apparent as a whore in church.
Truffaut says:

June 9, 2006 at 1:48 pm

Ray, Ray, Ray,

You disappoint me. You talk of being a real man. Yet when the going gets tough you hide behind the internet. Come to think of it, you are ONLY known through the internet.

I really want to help you improve your life. It’s obvious that you don’t know how to be the REAL MAN you so often speak of.

Ray, I will tell you how to become that real man below:

1.) LOG OFF THE INTERNET. The real world is outside your bedroom. Stand up. Wait, sit back down and close all the porn web sites on your computer. You do not want your mother to discover your “hobby.” Now stand up again. Open your bedroom door. Walk past you mommy’s bedroom. Go to the front door. Open it. Step outside. Ray this is the REAL WORLD. Real men live in the real world, not on the internet.

2.) GET A JOB. Even if it’s flipping burgers at McDonalds. Accept the reality that your internet business is a failure. A real man takes financial responsibility of his life.

3.) MOVE OUT OF YOUR MOTHER’S HOUSE. A real man does not live with his mommy, especially if he is a middle-aged man.

4.) TELL THE TRUTH. Do not claim to be anything that you are not. i.e. DO NOT LIE. We all know that you have no skill with women. The first step is to acknowledge your problem. Only then can you work to fix it.

Ray, I do not want to overwhelm you, so concentrate on these four steps for now.

I will not be reading your posts any longer for obvious reasons. I live in the real world Ray. Give it a try. You will be a happier person.
Ray Gordon says:

June 9, 2006 at 2:30 pm

“MAN, I FEEL BAD POSTING THIS AFTER SUCH A GOOD POST NLP, B/C IT MIGHT MAKE YOURS GET LOST IN BETWEEN ALL THE TEXT FOR NEW READERS. Well here goes:”

So he endorses lies and harassment? Interesting.

>”Lairs are linked to commercial
>interests. How about we talk to
>the exes themselves?”

“-Unrealistic.”

Seems ANY fact-checking is unrealistic here. We’re supposed to believe “internet props.”

>”Exactly who?”

“-I’m not putting someone else on the spotlight. I’m letting you know though that there are people there if you want to know the truth.”

Once again, no substantiation.

>”How convenient.”

“-And realistic.”

Again, no substantiation.

>”LTRs are for AFCs. How about he
>prove she hasn’t cut his balls
>off by speaking for himself?
>Will she ALLOW him to?”

“-Now it’s getting funny. You’re so far off and any student who’s been through a workshop can tell that’s not the case. This is sounding too desparate for me.”

Yet the guru still isn’t speaking for himself. No balls. Then again, it’s easier to duck than to have to answer difficult questions, and if the AFC losers keep paying anyway, he’s wise to keep his mouth shut.

>”Which SPECIFIC tactics were
>used?”

“-Ummm, a lot. I don’t have every tactic from meet to lay and I’m not posting them here. Certainly not for you.”

Wow, no substantiation again.

“You can think what you want of my responses, but the rest of the readers, the ones I care about will see reasonableness in it them, I think.”

No substantiation.

Rich guy gets laid: film at 11.

>”I was talking about his access
>to the market, through channels
>that cut off most of his
>competitors. Real men would
>never do that.”

“-Ha. That’s your take on it. What did you or him do differently so that he has access and you don’t?”

I don’t play along with that type of exclusion, while he obviously does. Ever see a newspaper refuse ads from one soft drink maker and not another? Ever wonder WHY this never happens?

Well, he’s going to be a defendant in my antitrust suit when I amend it, so he can explain his side there.

>”A man with a long history of
>fucking chicks is a good bet
>to “move on.” The problem? The
>woman AGES when this happens,
>and if she doesn’t wind up
>married, she loses several of
>her best years”

“-Yes, we understand this. I said he either moves on or marries.”

When’s the wedding, or is he just in it for the sex? Women who aren’t slut trash would be smart to make a guy wait for marriage, what with so many PUAs around.

“Whatever. Where’s the problem”

None for the guy, a lot for the chick if she doesn’t get a piece of paper. Of course, chicks don’t look that far ahead to when they lose their looks, and the PUAs are great at exploiting this.

>”What kind of an asshole thinks
>he speaks for everyone that way
>anyhow?”

“-Fair statement to say since no one seems to be complaining. ”

Definitely not the guys who are getting paid or the women who are bagging the rich guys, that’s for sure.

“OBVIOUSLY, when I say “no one” it doesn’t mean every other single person the face of this planet. Other readers get that. (and I did say “seem to” in that paragraph).”

Many people bring up the student-money issue.

>”I’m not the one excluding equal
>competition in this marketplace,
>or profiting from it while
>acting like the imbalance
>doesn’t exist.”

“-Why should he limit himself in where he advertises just for you?
If you have a problem with a site that doesn’t let you advertise take it up with them. That seems cry-baby to me to blame Lance.”

Actually, it’s the site AND the sponsors acting in agreement. A small group of gurus are excluding access to the market for their competition. We have Antitrust laws for those who think they are above that type of sanction. In severe cases, those laws have criminal penalties.

The idea is that legislators and the courts like fair and equal competition. Right now we don’t have that, and maybe the only way Lance can “win” is when others aren’t even allowed on the same playing field.

Perhaps he simply knows his limitations as a man and that’s why he needs such an unfair advantage.

>”Or is the answer to my
>question “no.”"

“-The answer is an implied no, because it’s unrealistic.”

Seems any factual substantiation of these extreme claims is unrealistic. Oh wait, men are supposed to part with large amounts of money based on “internet props.”

“I didn’t say I’ve seen him with
“hot women as proof he’s getting
“laid.”

Exactly. The only “proof” we have is some 26 year-old software engineer who thought the IPOD opener was “smooth” with him in an LTR.

Rich guy gets girlfriend: film at 11.

“It’s simply the limit of what I’ve observed b/c I don’t follow him into the bedroom.”

Is this a workshop customer’s observation? If so, it’s short term.

>Me: “”-What relationship status
>should a guy who’s really good
>with women have in your
>opinion?”"

“-You avoided the question.”

Getting women with money and status isn’t being good with women, it’s getting a “trophy girfriend.”

>”For women, it’s clear that
>marriage without premarital sex
>is necessary for her to avoid
>being used like a cheap slut,”

“-Woah, you’re behind on the times.”

Men are going to say things like that to encourage slutty behavior in women, but FOR THE WOMEN, it’s going to become the only defense against a player.

The other option is to just require the guy to spend money to prove he’s serious. Oh wait, someone already seems to have that angle covered.

>”where no one trusts anyone”

“-I’ll certainly still have trust in my relationships.”

You can trust a rattlesnake too if you’d like, but these methods wouldn’t have been necessary if women were honorable.

>”Me: I don’t know the history
>you have with different sites,
>but nothing I’ve seen has made
>me think negative comments or
>behaviors toward you are
>unjustified (then again, I
>haven’t seen them all).”
>Ray:You’re weaseling here,
>trying to avoid saying shit you
>know would get you sued and
>which you wouldn’t dare try on
>anyone else.
>If that’s your idea of a “better
>man” you need a reality check.”

“-What I said is the truth. I’m letting you know I’m not biased with past history here. I didn’t hear about you until this thread. You should see the posts I write elsewhere, they’re even more technical sounding.”

Loser geeks fund the game of the gurus, it is true.

>Interesting you immediately pick
>up on how well you can sue.

When people say the shit about me that’s been said here, they should expect to be sued. We have laws against lying about people.

“Yet, you still cap on people for not saying something that you can take action against???”

Actually in the context of this thread, I may very well take action. You endorsed someone who called me “certifiably crazy” and told a number of other lies. What I said was that you were too cowardly to just come out and say it yourself and instead pointed to others who said it and endorsed it.

>***A real man does not keep
>people at bay from saying what
>they really feel by threatening
>lawsuits***

If they defame someone, they should expect to be sued.

>”That she says no more says as
>much as her saying stuff would.”

“-If you’re interested in what you want to believe, as opposed to the truth, then believe that.”

Ah yes, no substantiation, just “internet props.” Men are supposed to spend a large amount of money based on “internet props?” Maybe that’s what Style was trying to teach people with the AM.

>Not that I really feel like
>going through the pages of posts
>to find the inaccuracies, so I
>just scanned for first one I
>saw “You’re just getting hired
>guns to soothe your shattered
>ego if you’re like most who
>attend these things.” What does
>this mean?

It means the women who are giving you feedback at workshops are hired guns.

>”So you’ve only seen him at his
>job then, and not in any
>extended setting.”

“-You’re underestimating people’s ability to get a feel for people.”

So the loser with women now is a great judge of people he just met, people who use his money to create the best possible impression.

Internet props!!

>”They are connected, since the
>presence of a good or bad
>teacher will alter the grade
>curve.”

“-I’m sure the med students have missed out on a great instructor before, too. Some student who didn’t get a scholarship or good enough loan that never made it to med school, surgeon training, and instructor training. It affected the grade curve too. Oh, well.”

Education isn’t governed by antitrust law; commerce is.

Lance bought into something I sued as being a cartel when he advertised with the site I’m suing. The amended complaint will be listing sponsors, including him, since they are profiting from behavior I allege to be anticompetitive.

For those interested, the source data can be found in the case #06-cv-229 in the District of Delaware). Obviously as a party in this litigation I am speaking from my perspective.

>”You just showed a flaw that
>will manifest itself in your
>results with women in the
>future.”

“-In your opinion. It seems you haven’t established crediblity with most people here, though, including me.”

Internet props in reverse. Oh, and kindly stop the trade libel.

“And I have a lot of flaws. I’m still better than before, though.”

Got proof? Oh wait, he can’t even sign his name.

Anonymous internet props! Spend your money!

>”If he ignores an injustice from
>which he profits, that’s not.”

“-The injustice is a matter of opinion. Maybe even of political view on what constitutes fair marketing. ”

Actually it will be up to a court to decide if there are any antitrust violations, and he (his company, actually) is going to be a defendant as soon as I amend.

Small cartels trying to dominate an industry are nothing new to the courts. Usually, however, you don’t see businesses in the same industry calling themselves a “community.”

>”That is the next logical step
>for the assistant instructors,
>is it not?”

“-They’re not assistant instructors. They’re stand-ins who give feedback. You’re view of this is inaccurate. If strippers could help me better approach the kind of lifestyle and success with women I want, why would I care if they were women or men?”

Like I said, ASSISTING at workshops is the first step many gurus have taken. Strippers know game “more than any man ever could,”, and some may even provide “extras” to their customers. This is where the industry is ultimately headed, as I know of several strippers who are looking to cash in. I suppose you missed the recent invasion of strippers to Mystery’s forum, for example.

When women smell easy money, they move in, and good luck competing against hotties.

“Why should I?”

Well, the women have some advantages over the men in many areas, not the least of which is actually having this game run on them all the time.

Most strippers would give you a “bootcamp” for about $100 on a slow night at their club btw.

>”I know what a pivot is.”

“-Then why were you using the term incorrectly and then said “that’s what you think” or something like that when I told you they weren’t pivots.”

I’m telling you they ARE pivots, but in the commercial sense. Look at the effect they had on that reporter.

>”You don’t see the gurus when
>they aren’t at work, obviously.”

“-Yeah, sometimes students do. They’re out a lot. Believe what you want, though.”

Got specifics?

Oh wait, can’t do that. Just internet props!

INTERNET PROPS!!!!

>”If you want to pretend that
>someone lying about you wouldn’t
>bother you or that you wouldn’t
>refute it, go ahead with that
>lie.”

“-It’s the things that set you off and the way you go about it that turns me (and I’m sure others) off.”

And even if it cost you a 10 who isn’t a slut or won’t fuck you over in the long-term, this is more important to you than that. I admire your principles.

“I could have been fucking 10s who were fit for marriage, but I didn’t like the guy, so I didn’t bother reading his stuff.”

Great logic there.

>”The joke’s on you, actually,
>because you should be fucking
>centerfolds if you earn even
>$50k a year.”

“-Phew, I don’t earn that much. Saved.”

Too bad no one can verify facts out here.

Oh wait, INTERNET PROPS. Forgot.

>”Say, who are you fucking that
>makes you so much better now
>that you spent all that money?”

“-Girls that I’m happier with than I was before the workshop.”

Got proof? I guess they’ll always be sexy as long as no one else can see them or talk to them.

Oh wait, he has INTERNET PROPS!!

“And I’m still getting better. If you have material to add, I’m sure other workshop students would be interested, but only if you seem like someone they’d want to learn from.”

People who want my work can find my site. I don’t believe in hard-selling anyone. I figure a guy who wants to fuck a 10 is going to check out everything, and those who don’t, well, they are looking for a friend they probably never had rather than a teacher.

I never had to pay a PUA to teach me or be my friend.

>”Well, if a man wants to ignore
>someone on those grounds even if
>he could have learned to fuck
>10s, I guess he showed me!”

“-Depends on what his priorities are. Also, you haven’t shown that you can get your students to fuck 10s (not that it’s only about the sex and looks).”

Well, if a reader wants to believe that (and not fuck 10s), he sure showed me!

Point is, a lot of my info is FREE. No reason for anyone not to check it out. The free info is the “marketing.” Considering how many other gurus use the theory you’ll find in that free info, that’s props right there.

The PIVOT is a pretty damn successful concept, wouldn’t you think? By itself, probably the most effective tool ever designed. If creating that isn’t PROOF enoguh for you (I have copyrights that PROVE it was me btw), then I can’t help you.

I guess internet props are supposed to be worth thousands, while documented copyrights of tactics like the pivot aren’t worth $20 or a look at free material.

Okay!

>”Any decision making process
>based on emotion rather than
>objective analysis of the
>methods speaks for itself.”

This from the guy who said a paragraph ago that he had to like the instructor.

“-I do care about the character of my instructor, though.”

If you care about the character of the women you eventually wind up with, you would. In the article, there was a restaraunt chick who was sick of men hitting on her on the job. She should talk to the 50 year-old women who are sick of losing that type of job to 28 year-old women who get hit on.

See? That’s a character issue. So is Mystery’s “hired sluts” — er, “hired gun” theory. Mystery admits these women are hired specifically because of how they look, which is gender discrimnation, age discrimination, weight discrimination (possible disability), using sexuality to get money, and not having a problem with hurting better-qualified workers.

A woman who is a “hired gun” has already shown she is not worth more than sex. The man who tries to legitimize this type of woman is going to wind up getting fucked over by her character flaws.

>”It’s the truth, however, you
>had to BUY your way into the PUA
>circle.”

“-Dude, I already addressed this. Yeah, I was socially stunted, so decided to do something about it.”

Pay.

>”Did any PUAs teach you for
>free?”

“-Yes, a number of them. You have a different view of the world than I do and will see people ONLY trying to take your money.”

I’m saying that these gurus are doing it for money, and they are. Even the free stuff is often marketing for the paid stuff.

“I’ll see people who do want to make a good living but are also interested in helping, often for free (after the workshop).”

But they’re still getting paid overall, and quite a lot of money.

Rich guy gets laid: film at 11.

>”Why the need to defend? And at
>this length?”

“-I don’t want others to get turned off by in inaccurate view of it by someone who hasn’t been through a workshop. And I OFTEN do posts like these. I don’t post on too many topics, but will rebuttle.”

It’s spelled REBUTTAL, should you ever find a proper place to put that word.

HINT: chicks like guys who spell properly.

>”That you say I
>somehow “deserved” the defamatio
>and harassment in this thread
>above me is something I’ll make
>sure the media sees as evidence
>of how a man who thinks he’s so
>much “better” behaves.”

“Your actions must have somehow led to where you are now. I know it’s a bit of a truism, but I think it make sense. You go to the media. Post a link or quote when it gets printed.”

So if your actions lead to someone unjustly fucking you over, does that put the blame on you?

>TELL ME. How am I trashing
>competitors?

YOU aren’t. You are defending those who are.

“You had some potentially good comments and distinction in game you could have added at the very beginning, but you’re just all over the place now. I don’t think I need to defend PU101 anymore on here, because readers can judge for themselves.”

Internet props!!!

Lance is in an LTR and has a lifestyle that is paid for by his students, as well as getting status from them.

>As for Lance talking for
>himself, I doubt it’s because
>it’s pussy whipped. That doesn’t
>make sense as a reason not to.

“I bet the reason is that he doesn’t need to. People who are secure in the business don’t come on websites like this to try and change the mind of one guy, who is apparently a competitor.”

Of course he’s secure in the business, he’s able to advertise in places his competition cannot. Anyone in that situation would want the status quo.

If he stays quiet (and we don’t know if he’s whipped or not because he’s not refuting it), he doesn’t have to answer any pressing questions, or anything, and the AFCs will keep “funding his game” and the lifestyle women find so appealing.

“The rest of your replies seem to be summarized in He’s rich and gets laid. & He’s using student’s money. Stuff we know and accept as reality.”

Well if the customers accept that, then they don’t mind being the driving force behind what makes the gurus so appealing to their girlfriends.

Btw, Lance was a student of Mystery’s, and Mystery teaches “surivial and replication resources.”

Oh, and as for LIFESTYLE seduction, the “CUPID” rating system from Chapters 1-4 of Outfoxing The Foxes actually showed how to construct a 1-100 rating that measures overall desirability to the opposite gender, as well as specific desirability to a partner.

When I released OTF, I talked about how a guy should work to improve his looks, his status, his money, his mind, etc., and at the time, most people talked about how this isn’t game but rather “common sense.” Back then, a few routines or patterns were all that was supposed to be necessary, etc. I held my ground and said that one day every guru would be a Foxhunter in one way or another.

In some ways, they are, if they start running the “guru gimmick” or using pivots, and talking about DHV or lifestyle as “game.”

GAME to me is when you score out of your league rather than improve the league you are in. The reason I released only one book on this rather than a “course” or seminar is that I considered the information so basic that it wasn’t worth more than the price of a book.

Now some people are getting paid thouands of dollars to teach guys how to raise their CUPID rating.

Without specifics on what Lance teaches, one only can speculate on what the methods are, and if he plays too-cool-to-post, then the only information he’s leaving with the general public is that which is obvious, namely that he has money and status, which are provided to him from his students. Under CUPID, that’s 40 percent of the equation right there.

Looks and youth (according to the writer, he has looks, and this is SAN FRAN mag so I trust the opinion) are also something he has. He’s 33, which is not the same as 43 or 53.

There comes a point in every man’s life where money and status will be his only game, unless he’s violent or a criminal, or otherwise useful, but that’s just a substitute for money.
Truffaut says:

June 9, 2006 at 3:58 pm

>>He MUST still be a virgin.

“Nope this guy got an STD on his first encounter.”

Ouch! I’m not sure that I need to learn THAT skill!
ForcedToRegister says:

June 9, 2006 at 7:19 pm

“Seems ANY fact-checking is unrealistic here. We’re supposed to believe “internet props.”" (And for all the other replies about being unsubstantiated.)

-Well, this IS the internet. We’re kind of limited. For the most part, it’s the people who claim to be real good that need to be verified by others who have standing or credibility. Have you been verified or vouched for?

-Also, somene who hasn’t made isn’t going to come and defend himself against one random person. I haven’t seen David D commenting whenever a random person challenges him. He knows his products are good enough for his customers. You’re making it seem like weakness.

————————————-
“Well, he’s going to be a defendant in my antitrust suit when I amend it, so he can explain his side there.”

-That’s become meaningless, even if the suit is filed. When it’s you agains the world, SOMETIMES it’s worth doing a self-reflection on the reality of what got you there.

————————————-
-I’m just skipping the wedding or moving on stuff, because no one cares. It’s a truism. You’re making things that people are okay with seem wrong. No need to address them, again.

—————————————
“Definitely not the guys who are getting paid or the women who are bagging the rich guys, that’s for sure.”

-Yup, not them or others, apparently, just you. Others bring up the student-money issue in another way.
————————————–
“Actually, it’s the site AND the sponsors acting in agreement. A small group of gurus are excluding access to the market for their competition.”

-They have an agreement to specifically exlude you? If you have hard evidence, knock yourself out.

—————————————-
“Perhaps he simply knows his limitations as a man and that’s why he needs such an unfair advantage.”

-Not likely. That’s like a girl telling her best friend “you’re just jealous because I’m beautiful” when she tries to stop her from making a bad decision…it’s ridiculous.

—————————————-
“The only “proof” we have is some 26 year-old software engineer.”

-What proof do you have of your pickup methods?

—————————————-
YOU AVOID THE QUESTION AGAIN:
>Me: “”-What relationship status
>should a guy who’s really good
>with women have in your
>opinion?”"

—————————————-
“The other option is to just require the guy to spend money to prove he’s serious. ”

-I didn’t learn any dishonest methods in there. If there’s dishonesty about intent, it’s not from these guys or hopefully students.

—————————————-
“Loser geeks fund the game of the gurus, it is true.”

-Blah, blah, blah, so we’re all loser geeks. Least I know who to trust.

—————————————–
“When people say the shit about me that’s been said here, they should expect to be sued.”

-But you’re hightly technical about it. Even saying that if I didn’t say things carefully “weasiling” I could be sued. ****When I’m not even going off on you, just defending this PU101 stuff.

Which I don’t think I need to anymore, because everyone’s seen your character.****

——————————————–
“Actually in the context of this thread, I may very well take action.”

-See! Point proven.

———————————————
“If they defame someone, they should expect to be sued.”

-Not if they’re just talking to some random guy on a message board. And “real man” as you say, doesn’t keep people at by from saying what they really feel by threatening lawsuits.

———————————————
“You’re just getting hired guns to soothe your shattered ego if you’re like most who attend these things.”

-There’s a lie. Should you know be sued?

———————————————
“So the loser with women now is a great judge of people he just met, people who use his money to create the best possible impression.”

-You think all these students who rave about the class are also horrible judges of character???? Successful businessmen, psychologists, firemen, successful pickup artists, all wrong?

———————————————
“-In your opinion. It seems you haven’t established crediblity with most people here, though, including me.”

Internet props in reverse. Oh, and kindly stop the trade libel. ”

-Wait, now I can’t say my opinion? Who taught you to deal with the world? This is reality man. Deal with small stuff like a normal person.

———————————————
“Small cartels trying to dominate an industry are nothing new to the courts. Usually, however, you don’t see businesses in the same industry calling themselves a “community.”

-*****Do you often find yourself thinking so ademently that you’re right, then suddenly find yourself on the outside looking in, still absolutely sure you’re right? Everyone else keeps going happy.******

———————————————
“Well, the women have some advantages over the men ”

-Then once again, why should this be something to worry about or avoid for me? I’m not out to hate women.

————————————————
“And even if it cost you a 10 who isn’t a slut or won’t fuck you over in the long-term, this is more important to you than that. I admire your principles.”

-Yes, many people lead very happy lives on principles like these. There are priorities in life.

————————————————–
“”I could have been fucking 10s who were fit for marriage, but I didn’t like the guy, so I didn’t bother reading his stuff.” ”

-Are you falsely quoting me here? Libel! libel! That’s how you’d reply, right?
You can’t guarantee that, haven’t shown me evidence, and past experience has taught me to follow principle over something that “looks” good because some guy online told me. (internet props! or one of those phrases you like saying)

————————————————-
“The PIVOT is a pretty damn successful concept, wouldn’t you think?”

-No one had thought of this idea before? No girl has ever said to his guy friend “i’ll help you meet chick” on the way to the club? That’s your big thing you keep bringing up?

I need more than that. Lance had free seminars where you could meet him and get a feel for him and I’ve seen hm in field and others have seen him in sets.

————————————————–
“>”Any decision making process
>based on emotion rather than
>objective analysis of the
>methods speaks for itself.”

This from the guy who said a paragraph ago that he had to like the instructor.”

DID YOU JUST MISQUOTE ME AGAIN? Stop defaming me. I don’t like it.

—————————————————-
“If you care about the character of the women you eventually wind up with, you would”

-Which is why I DO care about the character of my instructors? Are you trying to portray a falsely negative image of me, again?

——————————————————
“Pay.”

-Yeah, we know this already. It’s not a negative that I paid to do something to improve myself.

——————————————————
HE MAKES FUN OF SPELLING NOW?
“HINT: chicks like guys who spell properly.” (in reference to word “rebuttal”)

-Great hints man. That’s getting pretty desperate, again.

————————————————–
“So if your actions lead to someone unjustly fucking you over, does that put the blame on you?”

-I don’t believe it was unjustified. But I guess that’s what your court thing’s for.

—————————————————–
“YOU aren’t. You are defending those who are.”

-So, you mispoke earlier?

——————————————————
“Btw, Lance was a student of Mystery’s, and Mystery teaches “surivial and replication resources.”"

-Doesn’t mean he’s going to adopt it (whatever that is). He’s been gaming since before Mystery Method.

————————————————-
“Without specifics on what Lance teaches, one only can speculate on what the methods are, ”

-Yup, seems to be what you’re doing a lot of. Speculating.

————————————————-
“GAME to me is when you score out of your league rather than improve the league you are in. ”

-SOUNDS good, but I have to question it. Based on how I’m seeing you interact on this board, doesn’t seem you have things together.

————————————————-

I think I’m close to behind done here.
As arguments progress we tend to narrow down the actual things we’re disagreeing on.

Yes, yes, internet props, something or other on TV at 11, I pay someone for a service and he then uses that money (gasp!), and stuff about suing. Yawn.

I think you prefer to fight than to re-evaluate and figure out where you’re going wrong. Maybe it’s that falling in the love with the struggle theory that David D talked about.
Truffaut says:

June 9, 2006 at 9:19 pm

ForcedToRegister wrote:

>>> I think you (Ray Gordon) prefer to fight than to re-evaluate and figure out where you’re going wrong.

True, Ray is unable to look at himself objectively. And, if you present him with irrefutable facts, like those in my previous post, he will just ignore them.

Unfortunately, his personal psychology is perfect for self-perpetuating failure.
sub8hr says:

June 10, 2006 at 7:28 pm

Wow, I read some killer material here in these comments. The only way to learn real game is if I first make myself as unattractive to women as possible by becoming overweight, old, ugly, and poor. If my life is even somewhat slightly in order, I can’t be sure it’s REAL game, because I won’t have been doing enough to handicap my success.

I don’t know what game that is selling, but personally I have no desire to learn from egomaniacs with “I’m always right and like to bitch and whine about everyone else” syndrome.
Ray Gordon says:

June 11, 2006 at 8:06 am

>Seems ANY fact-checking is
>unrealistic here. We’re supposed
>to believe “internet props.”"
>(And for all the other replies
>about being unsubstantiated.)

“-Well, this IS the internet. We’re kind of limited. For the most part, it’s the people who claim to be real good that need to be verified by others who have standing or credibility.”

“Internet standing” and “internet credibility” for “internet props.”

“Have you been verified or vouched for?”

Who vouches for the vouchers? My readers have posted praise of my methods and discussed how they used them to get the women they want. Not that I encourage even that, because that woulod turn it into an internet social-proofing contest.

Thundercat vouched for Style as being the #1 pickup artist in the world…and how long before he was doing marketing for him? Mystery vouched for Style….but they have business together (Style teaches at his seminars).

>-Also, somene who hasn’t made
>isn’t going to come and defend
>himself against one random
>person. I haven’t seen David D
>commenting whenever a random
>person challenges him. He knows
>his products are good enough for
>his customers.

Yet he advertises in a place that created a blacklist against a competitor, and he bought into that blacklist as a condition of being able to advertise himself.

You think the magazine industry would be able to get away with refusing ads for Pepsi because Coca-Cola didn’t want the competition, or do you think maybe someone would be sued for that?

Success based on unfair or illegal competition is not success, and evaluations based on a partial menu of offerings are not full evaluations.

Given how SUBJECTIVE all this is, any evaluation is going to be suspect. “Yeah I got laid” isn’t exactly scientific.

If someone acts too-cool-to-post, then they are denying the audience a chance to hear their message. If their “followers” post, they only speak for themselves, presuming the guru had nothing to do with the follower posting.

>You’re making it seem like
>weakness.

It is. Smart business when the customers don’t care, but very cowardly and not indicative of anything alpha.

>”Well, he’s going to be a
>defendant in my antitrust suit
>when I amend it, so he can
>explain his side there.”

“-That’s become meaningless, even if the suit is filed. When it’s you agains the world, SOMETIMES it’s worth doing a self-reflection on the reality of what got you there.”

Being a threat to a small cartel of businesses who are trying to monopolize an industry is what “got me there.”

By his logic, a woman who is gang-raped would be the one to blame.

>”I’m just skipping the wedding
>or moving on stuff, because no
>one cares.”

Does he have DID now? He claims to speak for everyone! He even cares enough to post replies to me as if it were his main hobby.

> It’s a truism. You’re making
>things that people are okay with
>seem wrong. No need to address
>them, again.

Translation: he has no rebuttal so he pretends to speak for everyone, declares the issue moot, and “moves on” to his other lame attacks (like blaming women who are gang-raped because it is one against many).

>”Definitely not the guys who are
>getting paid or the women who
>are bagging the rich guys,
>that’s for sure.”

“-Yup, not them or others, apparently, just you. Others bring up the student-money issue in another way.”

Translation: he can’t flame others who ask the same questions, so he calls that “another way.”

Rich guy gets laid: Film at 11.

>”Actually, it’s the site AND the
>sponsors acting in agreement. A
>small group of gurus are
>excluding access to the market
>for their competition.”

“-They have an agreement to specifically exlude you?”

It’s a condition of doing business with a certain website, and that’s the basis of my antitrust lawsuit. That’s the restraint-of-trade part (blacklisting). There’s also a general lawsuit based on anticompetitive behavior.

> If you have hard evidence,
>knock yourself out.

Got tons, as this was done very publicly for a number of years.

>”Perhaps he simply knows his
>limitations as a man and that’s
>why he needs such an unfair
>advantage.”

“-Not likely. That’s like a girl telling her best friend “you’re just jealous because I’m beautiful” when she tries to stop her from making a bad decision…it’s ridiculous.”

Okay, maybe he just feels like being sued for taking advantage of something he doesn’t need.

>”The only “proof” we have is
>some 26 year-old software
>engineer.”

“-What proof do you have of your pickup methods?”

Wow, now he’s at “I know you are but what am I!” Four of my books are free on the web for men who want to use that information or see how much of it was co-opted by other gurus who charge for it (such as the “instant date” where a guy ends a conversation by telling a woman where he’s going and says “come along if you like”).

As for how to “prove” a method, university research is generally the gold standard. A lot more than “internet props” which my methods have gotten before anyway.

>YOU AVOID THE QUESTION AGAIN:
>Me: “”-What relationship status
>should a guy who’s really good
>with women have in your
>opinion?”"

>”The other option is to just
>require the guy to spend money
>to prove he’s serious. ”

“-I didn’t learn any dishonest methods in there. If there’s dishonesty about intent, it’s not from these guys or hopefully students.”

Where did I say he did? I said that women should require men to pay for dates before they consider sleeping with them, to weed out the men who are dishonest.

A man should strive for an LTR with a woman so hot that even if it didn’t last, he’d still be better off for having had it (that mitigates the risks). ONS and STR are fine, but that occurs only when the woman is, well, slutty.

I’d say marriage is ideal, but women have destroyed that ideal with dishonest behavior.

I doubt a 26 year-old software engineer is the too-hot “ideal,” or if she is, she’s missing out on a movie career.

Instead, Yuko sounds like the typical girlfriend of an AFC. If she’s in an “MLTR” she’s a typical something else, but all indications are it’s an LTR.

>”Loser geeks fund the game of
>the gurus, it is true.”

“-Blah, blah, blah, so we’re all loser geeks. Least I know who to trust.”

Well, actually, your statements show that any guru has a right to expect his students to fund his lifestyle. I certainly wouldn’t release new material until my playing field is level with the guys who are funded in that way.

>”When people say the shit about
>me that’s been said here, they
>should expect to be sued.”

“-But you’re hightly technical about it. Even saying that if I didn’t say things carefully “weasiling” I could be sued. ****When I’m not even going off on you, just defending this stuff.”

Spending a hell of a lot of time defending it, I should add.

Customers operate from a frame of worship as a rule, which is also biased.

>Which I don’t think I need to
>anymore, because everyone’s seen
>your character.****

Saying someone lacks character (or imputing it) is defamatory as well. If someone has to keep breaking the law to argue against me, maybe their arguments are weak.

My character is that of someone who isn’t going to pass off money and status as “pickup game” while being in an LTR that is funded by student money.

Funny thing: in chess, I can be 100 percent honest about my “game” and even play in front of a public audience, yet seduction gurus think “none of your business” is an appropriate response to a similar level of scrutiny.

>”Actually in the context of this
>thread, I may very well take
>action.”

“-See! Point proven.”

You make statements like you make, anonymously, and you act like you can’t be held accountable for them.

>”If they defame someone, they
>should expect to be sued.”

“-Not if they’re just talking to some random guy on a message board. And “real man” as you say, doesn’t keep people at by from saying what they really feel by threatening lawsuits.”

There’s a difference between opinion and lie. When someone crosses the line into lying, they should expect to have to defend themselves in a court of law.

>”You’re just getting hired guns
>to soothe your shattered ego if
>you’re like most who attend
>these things.”

“-There’s a lie. Should you know be sued?”

What lie? Women are paid to assist in the workshops. They are hired (presumably) because they are attractive. Mystery calls women like that “hired guns.”

>”So the loser with women now is
>a great judge of people he just
>met, people who use his money to
>create the best possible
>impression.”

“-You think all these students who rave about the class are also horrible judges of character???? Successful businessmen, psychologists, firemen, successful pickup artists, all wrong?”

Who are “all these students?” Do any of them have NAMES? Any PROOF of the great women they are now getting?

Or are “internet props” all someone needs now?

Usually, when a woman thinks her man is “better” she will tell the world she is with him. Is this happening for any of these men? I man, an AFC can do it with his girlfriend, but these “superior” men cannot?

Must be a hella devil in those details for people not to want to share them.

Oh wait, I forgot: INTERNET PROPS!!!

>”-In your opinion. It seems you
>haven’t established crediblity
>with most people here, though,
>including me.”
>Internet props in reverse. Oh,
>and kindly stop the trade
>libel. ”

“-Wait, now I can’t say my opinion?”

Saying someone lacks credibility with others goes beyond simple opinion, but instead is an attempt to speak for others.

“Who taught you to deal with the world? This is reality man. Deal with small stuff like a normal person.”

If you don’t like defamation law, write your congressman to have it repealed.

>”Small cartels trying to
>dominate an industry are nothing
>new to the courts. Usually,
>however, you don’t see
>businesses in the same industry
>calling themselves a “community.”

“-*****Do you often find yourself thinking so ademently that you’re right, then suddenly find yourself on the outside looking in, still absolutely sure you’re right? Everyone else keeps going happy.******”

They “go happy” until the process server shows up and they have to check their behavior against what the law says.

Antitrust laws were passed to ensure fair competition in commerce, as lack of competition tends to lead to artificially high prices.

How much was your workshop again?

>”Well, the women have some
>advantages over the men ”

“-Then once again, why should this be something to worry about or avoid for me? I’m not out to hate women.”

Neither am I. I said that women will likely take a larger and larger piece of the pie. Some strippers who invaded Mystery’s forum were saying the same thing, that if they found guys without game, they could start selling them these methods and taking a cut, or maybe even charging money to be pivots.

The thread is on Mystery’s forum entitled “New Strip Club Strategy?”

Oh, note to “Owning” from that forum. The reason the college teaching assistant who accused you of harassing him found out about your posting was that you reprinted the letter accusing you of harassing her without removing her name from it. Real bright.

>”And even if it cost you a 10
>who isn’t a slut or won’t fuck
>you over in the long-term, this
>is more important to you than
>that. I admire your principles.”

“-Yes, many people lead very happy lives on principles like these. There are priorities in life.”

So you’d rather settle for 7-8s instead of 9-10s based on your emotional feeling about the teachers.

Just being clear.

>”"I could have been fucking 10s
>who were fit for marriage, but I
>didn’t like the guy, so I didn’t
>bother reading his stuff.” ”

“-Are you falsely quoting me here? Libel! libel! That’s how you’d reply, right?
You can’t guarantee that, haven’t shown me evidence, and past experience has taught me to follow principle over something that “looks” good because some guy online told me. (internet props! or one of those phrases you like saying)”

My point was that his method of evaluation was such that it seemed that liking the teacher was more important than the results.

>”The PIVOT is a pretty damn
>successful concept, wouldn’t you
>think?”

“-No one had thought of this idea before? No girl has ever said to his guy friend “i’ll help you meet chick” on the way to the club? That’s your big thing you keep bringing up?”

I refined the concept and gave it a name that is now used by everyone in the “community” more or less. I also outlined exactly how to properly use one.

As if ANY of this stuff is new? Ovid published a seduction guide 2000 years ago.

At the time I published the pivot, many PUAs were dismissive of it, until they saw the results it was getting. If it was so obvious, others would have published it first, yet they didn’t.

Reverse timetable is another one of my creations (she says “let’s wait a while” and then the guy suggests a very long time), as is Returning Fox.

>I need more than that. Lance had
>free seminars where you could
>meet him and get a feel for him
>and I’ve seen hm in field and
>others have seen him in sets.

The free seminars generally are promotional in nature and built into the overall cost.

When did you see him in field, where, with which sets, and did he wind up fucking any of the women he approached? Who were the women anyway? They could have been 5s? What methods were used? Also, who scheduled the time for these missions, the teacher or the student? Who chose the venue?

This is the problem with “internet props.”

See, with my CHESS stuff, I can get VERY personal about how I play “THE game” without the slightest concern. I can show actual moves from my actual games, and demonstrate myself “in the field” at will.

In pickup, the gurus claim discretion anytime someone tries to scrutinize all their claims.

“>”Any decision making process
>based on emotion rather than
>objective analysis of the
>methods speaks for itself.”
>This from the guy who said a
>paragraph ago that he had to
>like the instructor.”

“DID YOU JUST MISQUOTE ME AGAIN? Stop defaming me. I don’t like it. ”

He’s deflecting.

>”If you care about the character
>of the women you eventually wind
>up with, you would”

“-Which is why I DO care about the character of my instructors? Are you trying to portray a falsely negative image of me, again?”

So an instructor who teaches MLTR either a) isn’t in one himself; or b) is the type of guy who would fuck other women even if he has a girlfriend.

>”Pay.”

“-Yeah, we know this already. It’s not a negative that I paid to do something to improve myself.”

Where’s the proof of improvement? In chess, I can document my improvement very easily, because there are rating lists. Someone who looks up my chess rating will find I am rated 1900 USCF, with a peak rating of 2000. They know exactly what my level of GAME is, and can see the actual moves from my actual games.

Where’s your proof of improvement? Oh wait, internet props. For all we know, you could be fucking 5s and calling them 9s.

Where’s the PROOF?

>HE MAKES FUN OF SPELLING NOW?
>”HINT: chicks like guys who
>spell properly.” (in reference
>to word “rebuttal”)

“-Great hints man. That’s getting pretty desperate, again.”

SMART women do check spelling. Then again, if you date from Vassar instead of Bridge & Tunnel University, you’d notice the difference.

Someone who can’t spell a word like “rebuttal” has revealed a reading level that doesn’t include words like that very often.

>”So if your actions lead to
>someone unjustly fucking you
>over, does that put the blame on
>you?”

“-I don’t believe it was unjustified. But I guess that’s what your court thing’s for.”

So in other words, he’s biased. Since he’s also promoting a specific guru (as a student), that’s going to be noted.

>”YOU aren’t. You are defending
>those who are.”

“-So, you mispoke earlier?”

Was clarifying for an idiot who thought I had misspoke.”

>”Btw, Lance was a student of
>Mystery’s, and Mystery
>teaches “surivial and
>replication resources.”"

“-Doesn’t mean he’s going to adopt it (whatever that is).”

Why not? Why would he TEACH one thing and DO another?

>He’s been gaming since before
>Mystery Method.

You were there? The game he runs now is not the game he ran then. He even calls it “hot game” (i.e., be rich/famous etc.).

>”Without specifics on what Lance
>teaches, one only can speculate
>on what the methods are, ”

“-Yup, seems to be what you’re doing a lot of. Speculating.”

I’m not asking people to spend thousands of dollars, either.

>”GAME to me is when you score
>out of your league rather than
>improve the league you are in. ”

“-SOUNDS good, but I have to question it. Based on how I’m seeing you interact on this board, doesn’t seem you have things together.”

Is this a board where we pick up hot chicks? I’m not into “commercial pickup” so I’ll make what you consider mistakes if you think someone’s sole purpose for posting is to generate income rather than stimulate discussion.

Fact is, money and status are not game.

“I think I’m close to behind done here.”

Just like he was last post!

“As arguments progress we tend to narrow down the actual things we’re disagreeing on.
Yes, yes, internet props,”

Which are unverifiable.

“something or other on TV at 11,”

That’s “rich guy gets laid: film at 11.”

“I pay someone for a service and he then uses that money (gasp!),”

He claims to speak for customers now in saying that it’s perfectly legitimate for gurus to expect their customers to fund their lifestyle.

>and stuff about suing. Yawn.”

Blacklisting competition is anticompetitive.

“I think you prefer to fight than to re-evaluate and figure out where you’re going wrong.”

The guy who supposedly was clueless with women until how long ago now knows all? Interesting.

“Maybe it’s that falling in the
love with the struggle theory
that David D talked about.”

Notice how nasty this “better man” gets when I question his belief system?

The same media that covered the workshops can cover the followup, which includes this type of behavior.

Legal concerns aside for a second, this man’s behavior (including blaming me for a well-documented corporate gang-rape) is a reflection on those who teach him supposedly to be “better” and “social.”
Truffaut says:

June 11, 2006 at 10:59 am

Ray Gordon leaves his mommy’s house: Film at 11*

* Yes, it’s true; the infamous Ray Gordon left his mother’s house for a SECOND TIME in a week. He was spotted at 1:42 a.m. at the local Quick Stop purchasing a 12-pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon, a tube of Anbesol Cold Sore Therapy, and three pornographic magazines.

When he became aware that he had been spotted, he ran away yelling, “Leave me alone or I’ll sue!” He was last seen jumping into his mother’s station wagon.
ForcedToRegister says:

June 11, 2006 at 2:46 pm

-Do you have a better vouching system? The current one doesn’t seem to be that big of a problem. Word spreads when people in-field together and they see what each other can do (not just the commercial guys). Students also share their thoughts on mASF. It works for us.

My guess is you originally had your chance to advertise, but then did something that changed that.

And stop talking about what’s alpha. Threatening suits on message boards with random people like me is the opposite of alpha. Yes, I’m anonymous, but I’m not out her claiming to be good enough to teach others.

—————————————–
“By his logic, a woman who is gang-raped would be the one to blame.”

-Haha, yeah right.

——————————————
“He claims to speak for everyone! He even cares enough to post replies to me as if it were his main hobby.”

-I’m hardly ever on here. This is the only thread I’m following. You’re on here all the time. Sounding DESPERATE to slam me again.

——————————————-
“Translation: he has no rebuttal so he pretends to speak for everyone, declares the issue moot, and “moves on” to his other lame attacks (like blaming women who are gang-raped because it is one against many).”

DESPERATE. No need to rebuttal what people don’t seem to be caring about. And now pretending I blame women for getting gang-raped. You’re ridiculous. Now, you’re the one LYING.

———————————————
“he can’t flame others who ask the same questions, so he calls that “another way.”

-No, I mean no one cries about it like you do.

——————————————–
“It’s a condition of doing business with a certain website, and that’s the basis of my antitrust lawsuit. ”

-So, they agreed to do business with a website only if they exclude you?

————————————
“As for how to “prove” a method, university research is generally the gold standard.”

-You know that’s not likely to happen. HOW DO YOU SHOW ***YOU*** ARE GOOD WITH WOMEN?

————————————
“A man should strive for an LTR with a woman so hot that even if it didn’t last, he’d still be better off for having had it (that mitigates the risks).”

-How do you know if Lance is there? You were knocking him before just for being in an LTR. Now, you’re saying if it’s that great, it’s okay!?!? BACK PEDDLING.

————————————-
“Customers operate from a frame of worship as a rule, which is also biased.”

-Nice generalization. Your whole post is weak

————————————
EVERYONE READ THIS PART:

ME: Which I don’t think I need to anymore, because everyone’s seen your character.

RAY: Saying someone lacks character (or imputing it) is defamatory as well. If someone has to keep breaking the law to argue against me, maybe their arguments are weak.

-You’ve done your share of defaming in these posts. I’m QUITE FREE to say I don’t need to defend something for others, because they’ve seen your character already.

————————————
“When someone crosses the line into lying, they should expect to have to defend themselves in a court of law.”

-That’s not reality. You can find technicalities and bring them in to court, but it’s not living real life.

———————————-
“What lie? Women are paid to assist in the workshops.”

-Not to soothe shattered egos, though. Lie.
ForcedToRegister says:

June 11, 2006 at 3:13 pm

I say again: WHO TAUGHT YOU TO DEAL WITH THE WORLD? THIS IS REALITY. DEAL WITH SMALL STUFF LIKE A NORMAL PERSON. This is about your ability to deal with this, not whether you can technically get the law to pay people back.

—————————————–
“They “go happy” until the process server shows up and they have to check their behavior against what the law says.”

-But after the thing is over, they still go happy, because of their MINDSET. You can with the cash, but I doubt your mindset will allow you to really be happy with it.

——————————————–
“I said that women will likely take a larger and larger piece of the pie.”

-I think this is like the third time I’ve asked. SO WHAT? If they’re better at it? then why should I care?

———————————————
“So you’d rather settle for 7-8s instead of 9-10s based on your emotional feeling about the teachers.”

-I believe that if I follow my principles about characters of teachers (based on experience), I’ll end up with a happier result. That’s what I’m saying.

I don’t know how this could be manifest in this case (I might not like the mindset, or it might attract types of girls I end up not being happy with, I don’t know). I just know that based on past experience, that the character of instructor/mentor/system reflects results I’ll be getting to a strong degree.

It’s harder to explain this one.
It’s like when I thought something was off about TD.

———————————————–
“The free seminars generally are promotional in nature and built into the overall cost.”

-What does that have to do with my point about them, where I can get a feel for things, first. There’s many promotional events where they set everything up just to sell, but customers still get a feel.

And why should I explain all the field stuff and venues if the response is going to be ‘internet props’?

———————————————–
-I didn’t deflect anything, btw. It was answered in another section.

———————————————–
“Where’s the PROOF?”

-First off, why would you ask that. This is the internet. You don’t really get proof on her.

Two, I wasn’t trying to defend to prove to you how I improved. You had just slammed me as a loser for having to pay. I just said that it’s not a negative to pay if it’s going to improve myself.

———————————————-
“Someone who can’t spell a word like “rebuttal” has revealed a reading level that doesn’t include words like that very often.”

-So, you’re slamming my education/reading level, now? DESPERATE. I love it when people do this, because most of the time I have better education (and readin comprehension) than them. Of course this is the internet, so no way to settle it.

BTW, a lot of girls are book smart, but really dumb socially. Don’t place too much value on it. And I’m saying this as someone who is more book smart than socially smart, so not being biased.

————————————————
“Since he’s also promoting a specific guru (as a student), that’s going to be noted.”

-OMG, I don’t care.

————————————————-
“Why would he TEACH one thing and DO another?”

-I thought Mystery was the one who taught…that’s what you said, right?

——————————————————
“”I think I’m close to behind done here.” Just like he was last post!”

-You make a lot of those pointless replies just to have a reply, don’t you? I said close, not that I’m actually done and keep coming back.

—————————————————–
How did you question my belief system?

And honestly, I think I’m going pretty soft here compared to others.

——————————————————–
“Legal concerns aside for a second, this man’s behavior (including blaming me for a well-documented corporate gang-rape) is a reflection on those who teach him supposedly to be “better” and “social.”"

And you’re making an inaccurate statement that my behavior here is a reflection of those who teach me. We all have our own personalities and that workshop doesn’t replace them with their own type. These are the kind of ridiculous statements you make.
Logan says:

June 11, 2006 at 8:07 pm

…the first and last time I click on the comments section of this site.

There isn’t a fine line between keyboard commandoes and they people who put themselves out there, get things done, and let their achievements speak for themselves. It’s not a fine line, it’s glaringly obvious.

I’m headed back to fs where most of the posts are actually relevant to pick up technique, not fan boy pissing matches. Guys, all of you who wrote more than a few paragraphs and who wrote total circular logic gibberish, get a f’in life.

Thanks for the scroll button workout though!

-someone you will never here from again on this board…
Mystery says:

June 12, 2006 at 3:54 am

Hey Ray,

I for one do not appreciate your participation here and request Thundercat ban you from further participation. Your posts are distruptive and derail us from otherwise meaningful exchange.

The main reason I do not post here is because of you. I have requested to meet you in real life and you have AGAIN wormed your way clear of my challenge to you. You have been given more than a fair amount of time. Since then, I have been to Boston, then LA, then Toronto, Melbourne Australia, back to LA, to San Diego, to Toronto again, then NYC and now Im in the UK. I return to Vegas this week and all this time all you had to do was call the 800 # which I provided so you could schedule our meeting. You did not. So that’s that. *shrug*

Thundercat, perhaps we can be democratic … if more people want him banned than not, why not listen to your people. I do not intend on posting until I see Ray is no longer permitted.

Now Ray, just because I dont want to read your posts in no way means I dont want to meet you. I accept the terms of the challenge:

1. I do 5 sets.
2. you do 5 sets.
3. I open 5 sets, then you come in to try to derail them 25 minutes in, then I try to recover. (this one is ray’s idea – i think it proves nothing but Im a good sport.)

The person with the most objective success wins.

Just call the 800 # to schedule this with my business partner Savoy.

Anyone reading the accumulating posts by Ray, not only in this thread but in all the others, will know why the added login requirement was implemented. Thundercat, please do what you need to in order to allow others to communicate without disruption from Ray.

Its just so freakin’ OLD already.

I mean who do people prefer posting, Mystery or Ray? If it’s Ray then I will have no hard feelings over it and will simply fill my spare time on other sites. I just happen to enjoy this one.

Thanks. Mystery
NlpRapist says:

June 12, 2006 at 5:01 am

Mystery

I think he should be banned as well. We all have seen how he destroyed ASF, and he’ll do the same here in time.
Hes not going to meet you, he knows he can’t pickup a woman. Hes a pussy and a coward, he has refused to meet anyone in over 8 years.
NlpRapist says:

June 12, 2006 at 5:20 am

“-That’s become meaningless, even if the suit is filed. When it’s you agains the world, SOMETIMES it’s worth doing a self-reflection on the reality of what got you there.”

Being a threat to a small cartel of businesses who are trying to monopolize an industry is what “got me there.”

EVER IF there was a cartel, what makes you think you are a threat to them?

You have no workable method, you do nothing but wait for some idiot who doesn’t know any better to stumble across your site and buy a little “ebook”. NO SANE person would subscribe to ANYTHING you put out after reading your posts on the net…which by the way seems to be the way it is now.

You are a threat to NO ONE.
gliblets says:

June 12, 2006 at 7:00 am

Don’t indulge bores. Don’t engage the compulsively argumentative. And if someone becomes threatening others in the club call security and have them ejected. TC, “security” means you, dude. Looking forward to seeing some new posts from Mystery.
NlpRapist says:

June 12, 2006 at 7:06 am

Ray Gordon, milk police…can you believe this guy?…hes needs to be locked up.

>> As for why I’d bother to do this? Same reason I check the date on the
>> milk in stores even if I’m not buying it: the public often overlooks it,
>> and it’s one case where I can truly bring them up to speed, just like
>> when I catch dated milk on the shelves, I’m preventing a potential case
>> of food poisoning.

> You check the expiration date of milk you are not buying? Do you sue the
> store for attempted bodily harm if it is expired?

Usually I just bring it to the front counter, state the date on the milk,
let them know I’m sure it was an error, and then move on. If they get snide
or act like I’m the one with the problem I call in the milk police and let
them do their thing. Fresh milk is in the public interest, and many people
do not check.

Shaking head….guys, this boy belongs in a rubber room.
Intime says:

June 12, 2006 at 9:00 am

There are like 5 people posting almost all the 100 over posts in one page.

Im unsure why Mystery you still want to talk about a challenge which might never be able to make happen unless we call the FBI to handcuff Gordon and bring him over but I think Ray you should understand by now that its not because it is YOU that people need to moderate and ban.

But it is every kind of person like YOU.

He could call himself John Smith and if all he did was posts dozens upon dozens of argumentative posts here, regardless of content it would be difficult for any other people to have any oher sort of discussion.

How much could you possibly have to say?? Add some variety to your speeches instead of the same few sentences rewritten 5000 times.

Sure u have entertainment value but it might be time for the Jester’s head to come off.
Truffaut says:

June 12, 2006 at 10:25 am

Terminate Ray Gordon’s posts with extreme prejudice.

Maybe he will get a life after being banned.
Ray Gordon says:

June 12, 2006 at 12:01 pm

“Hey Ray,”

I’m not on a first-name basis with any man who threatens a reverend with a knife, all because the reverend “dared” to complain about noise from a GUEST in another apartment in THE BUILDING WHERE HE LIVES. (Source: “The Game”). Then of course there’s that incident also mentioned in “The Game” where Mysery threatened to throw Herbal through plate glass all because Herbal managed to fuck Katya, a chick Mystery seemed to think was “his.”

So much for “bros before hoes.”

“I for one do not appreciate your participation here and request Thundercat ban you from further participation. Your posts are distruptive and derail us from otherwise meaningful exchange.”

So if I show this post to a network talk show and ask them to have us both on and ask him about these comments or why he’s so SCARED of me being allowed to post somewhere, is he going to tell the same thing to a host? Would he tell the audience at a book signing the same thing when the same questions about money and game are asked there?

Censorship is not exactly an alpha tactic.

“The main reason I do not post here is because of you.”

That is no one’s concern but your own.

“I have requested to meet you in real life and you have AGAIN wormed your way clear of my challenge to you. You have been given more than a fair amount of time. Since then, I have been to Boston, then LA, then Toronto, Melbourne Australia, back to LA, to San Diego, to Toronto again, then NYC and now Im in the UK.”

All paid for with money from the students.

Rich guy gets laid: film at 11.

“I return to Vegas this week and all this time all you had to do was call the 800 # which I provided so you could schedule our meeting. You did not. So that’s that. *shrug*”

My challenge was specified: major media outlet, strip club, on camera, same sets (while playing chess).

Someone who alleges A-list connections should have no difficulty finding media.

“Thundercat, perhaps we can be democratic … if more people want him banned than not, why not listen to your people. I do not intend on posting until I see Ray is no longer permitted.”

A billion lemmings can’t be wrong.

“Now Ray, just because I dont want to read your posts in no way means I dont want to meet you.”

The only way I’d meet Mysery is for a public challenge that is filmed, in a high-security environment, with major media present.

“I accept the terms of the challenge:

1. I do 5 sets.
2. you do 5 sets.
3. I open 5 sets, then you come in to try to derail them 25 minutes in, then I try to recover. (this one is ray’s idea – i think it proves nothing but Im a good sport.)”

None of this was my idea. My idea was to grab a table at a strip club (a neutral one of course), play chess at the table, and have the cameras rolling as the dancers approach us, which would have us working the SAME SETS AT THE SAME TIME.

I was curious to see what the strippers would say when confronted with Mysery’s claim of having slept with 20 of them, and his advice not to buy dances or spend much money.

FORTUNATELY, the folks over at http://www.stripperweb.com started discussing this recently (can you believe it!), and some of the dancers went over to Mystery’s forum and started disucssing the whole thing, while the thread over at Stripperweb was DELETED! Seems the strippers didn’t want the men reading the site to learn that other men were getting freebies because they were PUAs. At Mystery’s forum, the strippers tried to be diplomatic but definitely didn’t approve of his advice (obviously). One of them even noted how the other customers are going to want the same free attention, and how the clubs can’t tolerate “game” for this reason.

What I want to do on camera would be similar to this type of debate: Mystery can talk about how he fucks strippers, and strippers can talk about how they never fuck customers, while I just ask “who is lying?” If the strippers are lying, then every guy in the club just lost his reason for tipping.

If the strippers want to cause Mystery to win and that to happen, I’d love to see it.

“The person with the most objective success wins.Just call the 800 # to schedule this with my business partner Savoy.”

See above. Whoever arranges this will have to be neutral and have a decent sized media audience (as in major national or local exposure).

“Anyone reading the accumulating posts by Ray, not only in this thread but in all the others, will know why the added login requirement was implemented.”

Thundercat never said it was me. Others have suggested it was due to the AM flamewars, which I had little to do with, if anything.

“Thundercat, please do what you need to in order to allow others to communicate without disruption from Ray.”

If they don’t like what I read, they can ignore it. Just like you can.

“Its just so freakin’ OLD already.”

These lame flames directed at me are what’s OLD.

“I mean who do people prefer posting, Mystery or Ray? If it’s Ray then I will have no hard feelings over it and will simply fill my spare time on other sites. I just happen to enjoy this one.”

I would think that an audience of consumers being asked to spend thousands of dollars on product would prefer to hear ALL points of view.
Truffaut says:

June 12, 2006 at 12:22 pm

Ray Gordon eats crow: Film at 11.
NlpRapist says:

June 12, 2006 at 12:35 pm

“I’m not on a first-name basis with any man who threatens a reverend with a knife,”

Ray he probally feels the same way about you threatening children, saying there was no loss of life in those towers and I could go on and on …….

“So if I show this post to a network talk show and ask them to have us both on and ask him about these comments or why he’s so SCARED of me being allowed to post somewhere, is he going to tell the same thing to a host?
Censorship is not exactly an alpha tactic.”

Theres no one in the media going to pay you any attention, after they goggle you..LMAO. Censorship is needed when BOYS refuse to act like men…ray.

“The main reason I do not post here is because of you.”

“”That is no one’s concern but your own.”

We ALL want you gone..idiot.

“I have requested to meet you in real life and you have AGAIN wormed your way clear of my challenge to you. You have been given more than a fair amount of time. Since then, I have been to Boston, then LA, then Toronto, Melbourne Australia, back to LA, to San Diego, to Toronto again, then NYC and now Im in the UK.”

“All paid for with money from the students.

“Rich guy gets laid: film at 11.”

Notice how Ray isn’t even MAN enough to meet the challenge!!

“My challenge was specified: major media outlet, strip club, on camera, same sets (while playing chess).”

Laughing, playing chess…I’m sure the media can’t wait to film that….god you are such a LOSER.

“Someone who alleges A-list connections should have no difficulty finding media.”

Didn’t YOU say you were doing that, that that is why it was being held up….one lie to cover another lie….welcome to RAy world.

“A billion lemmings can’t be wrong.”

Thats right, we all want you gone!!!

“The only way I’d meet Mysery is for a public challenge that is filmed, in a high-security environment, with major media present.”

Little pussy is afraid some AFC is going to spit on him….Ray with drink in his face, film at 11.

“I accept the terms of the challenge:

“None of this was my idea. My idea was to grab a table at a strip club (a neutral one of course), play chess at the table, and have the cameras rolling as the dancers approach us, which would have us working the SAME SETS AT THE SAME TIME.”

If you ever see a guy carring a chess board, its Ray, seducing strippers…lol. Ray, you can’t beat Mystery or anyone for that matter…give it UP.

“I was curious to see what the strippers would say when confronted with Mysery’s claim of having slept with 20 of them, and his advice not to buy dances or spend much money.”

I like to see what Ray does when the strippers leave with Mystery, on film, and him with drinks in his face.

a bunch of impotent talk

“What I want to do on camera would be similar to this type of debate: Mystery can talk about how he fucks strippers, and strippers can talk about how they never fuck customers, while I just ask “who is lying?”

In other words you don’t know how to seduce or even talk to a woman….how you have made it this far is amazing.

“If the strippers want to cause Mystery to win and that to happen, I’d love to see it.”

Another insight in a mind that doesn’t know how to game girls…sad…

“See above. Whoever arranges this will have to be neutral and have a decent sized media audience (as in major national or local exposure).”

You’ll back out as you ALWAYS DO.

“Thundercat, please do what you need to in order to allow others to communicate without disruption from Ray.”

“If they don’t like what I read, they can ignore it. Just like you can. ”

nAW, YOU’LL SOON BE BANNED, WHEN THUNDY GETS OVER THE COMIC RELIEF.
Hes not going to let you destroy this board as you have others with your spewing hatred.

“These lame flames directed at me are what’s OLD.”

Whats old is you pretending to be an expert in things you know nothing about. Its plain to see to everyone but buttboy himself.

“I would think that an audience of consumers being asked to spend thousands of dollars on product would prefer to hear ALL points of view.”

But not your point….its well known that your method is impotent.

Now run along….let the men talk about women.
Truffaut says:

June 12, 2006 at 12:48 pm

Ray Gordon plays chess with himself at strip club: Film at 11.
ForcedToRegister says:

June 12, 2006 at 12:54 pm

“So if I show this post to a network talk show and ask them to have us both on and ask him about these comments or why he’s so SCARED of me being allowed to post somewhere,”

-I feel like a little kid teacher explaining to a kid why the others make fun of him.

Look, Ray, network talk shows don’t care about some post on the net. They don’t give a fuck. You keep threatening this over and over, even though people don’t care. It’s dumb to keep using the same threat (and not very alpha) when people just don’t care.

You think you’re posting from some cool angle and setting up a good challenge. It’s stupid lame, though.

This is the real world here. Learn to deal with it. Not in court terms, but in real terms the way real people deal with these things.
NlpRapist says:

June 12, 2006 at 1:24 pm

-I feel like a little kid teacher explaining to a kid why the others make fun of him.

Look, Ray, network talk shows don’t care about some post on the net. They don’t give a fuck. You keep threatening this over and over, even though people don’t care. It’s dumb to keep using the same threat (and not very alpha) when people just don’t care.

I know, Ray thinks he is like this real important guy, like hes Hitch or something. He doesn’t realize that the world is laughing at him…from people on the net, to people he meets….all the way to the clerks at the courthouse. I may tell you what he is called….its a riot…:)
Clown says:

June 12, 2006 at 2:51 pm

I vote Ray off the island.
Clown says:

June 12, 2006 at 2:56 pm

Clearly there’s no reasoning with Ray. I want to make something CLEAR: I’ve been in the community for several years – since 2000. Ray has been around since then, hasn’t changed a bit and people have been saying this stuff to him for years. He’s mentally ill. There is no reasoning with him and look: There’s basically 3 people posting now on TC’s Lair. He’s crippled the site.

Let me give you guys a mantra:

Save your time
Ray is mentally ill
Save your time
Ray’s been posting the same stuff for 6 years (at least)
Save your time
Ray’s been getting the same responses for 6 years (at least)
Save your time
Ray is mentally ill

That’s all.
Truffaut says:

June 12, 2006 at 3:20 pm

Ray, Ray, Ray,

You disappoint me. Mystery states in his ebook: “In the game of chess, it is possible to win in only four moves. This gambit is called fool’s mate.”

Geez, Mystery is wrong twice in two sentences and you don’t even correct him? I thought you were a REAL chess player! LOL

I.) Fool’s mate is two moves:

1.) f4 e5
2.) g4 Qh4 mate

II.) Fool’s mate is not a gambit. “A gambit in an opening in which one player offers to give up material in the expectation of gaining a positional advantage.”

Ray, in the film Dirty Pretty Things, one of the characters says, “Good at chess, bad at life.” I guess even you don’t qualify.
Ray Gordon says:

June 12, 2006 at 7:09 pm

>I.) Fool’s mate is two moves:

>1.) f4 e5
>2.) g4 Qh4 mate

The “fool’s mate” and the “scholar’s mate” (the four-mover) have often been referred to interchangeably.
Sperminator says:

June 12, 2006 at 7:46 pm

Ray Gordon Sighting: Film at 11

The infamous Ray Gordon has been seen in the last month on numerous occasions at the playground of Saint Timothy’s school for delinquent boys. A few boys have stated that Ray, “invited us to come over to his mother’s house for milk and cookies and a few “chess lessons.” Saint Timothy’s headmaster has reported Ray to the local authorities.
Ray Gordon says:

June 12, 2006 at 9:04 pm

“-Do you have a better vouching system? The current one doesn’t seem to be that big of a problem. Word spreads when people in-field together and they see what each other can do (not just the commercial guys). Students also share their thoughts on . It works for us.”

Nothing is verified with all these “internet props.” Scrutiny of the women, the lay reports, and the technique the lays are attributed to is all impossible. That doesn’t even account for the liars.

“My guess is you originally had
your chance to advertise, but
then did something that changed
that.”

No, actually, in this case, the marketing of a site was based on its exclusion of me, which makes it pretty damn easy to prove blacklisting.

“And stop talking about what’s alpha. Threatening suits on message boards with random people like me is the opposite of alpha. Yes, I’m anonymous, but I’m not out her claiming to be good enough to teach others.”

You’re out here rather relentlessly endorsing a commercial product, however, which means your posts are designe to cause others to spend money on that product. You even seem to take it almost as a personal attack if someone challenges your statements about said commercial product.

>”By his logic, a woman who is
>gang-raped would be the one to
>blame.”

“-Haha, yeah right.”

Why am I not shocked that a “player” would laugh at a gang-rape or try to blame the woman for it?

>”He claims to speak for
>everyone! He even cares enough
>to post replies to me as if it
>were his main hobby.”

“-I’m hardly ever on here. This is the only thread I’m following. You’re on here all the time. Sounding DESPERATE to slam me again.”

Let’s see: I comment on an article, he flames me for that, which means he reacted to my posts long before I responded to any of his, and only then when his were directed at me.

>”Translation: he has no rebuttal
>so he pretends to speak for
>everyone, declares the issue
>moot, and “moves on” to his
>other lame attacks (like blaming
>women who are gang-raped because
>it is one against many).”

“DESPERATE. No need to rebuttal what people don’t seem to be caring about.”

Yet here he is, continuing to post after he said he was “done” with it.

“And now pretending I blame women for getting gang-raped. You’re ridiculous. Now, you’re the one LYING.”

Not a lie at all. He said that when it’s one against many, the ONE should consider what behavior led to the attack by the many. That would apply to a gang-rape as much as to a blacklist.

>”he can’t flame others who ask
>the same questions, so he calls
>that “another way.”

“-No, I mean no one cries about it like you do.”

Several people here have said more or less the same things I have (about gurus using student money to fund their lifestyle). The strategy there, since they can’t flame the poster, is to make a lame argument about how they were getting women long ago, before they had money, even if those women were bar skanks and today’s women were higher “quality” and gotten from VIP lounges.

>”It’s a condition of doing
>business with a certain website,
>and that’s the basis of my
>antitrust lawsuit. ”

“-So, they agreed to do business with a website only if they exclude you?”

Other way around: anyone who even MENTIONS me anywhere on said site is banned (including discussions, reviews, and anything), and any advertiser is well aware (or should be aware) of the site policy. Several sponsors have made direct reference to it or otherwise displayed knowledge of it.

>”As for how to “prove” a method,
>university research is generally
>the gold standard.”

“-You know that’s not likely to happen. HOW DO YOU SHOW ***YOU*** ARE GOOD WITH WOMEN?”

I’m almost forty years old. Guys my age either find one woman hot enough and into us enough, they get money, go to a poor country, or they get off the playing field. I don’t care if you’re a celebrity, once you are forty in the US, you need money, power, or status to get laid without it turning into a very annoying headache. Even then it’s possible, but not something a smart man would subject himself to.

Several of the wealthy gurus chose to get rich by charging tons of money to a niche audience of wealthy, desperate men with more or less the same marketing (and even the same font and nearly the same wording, sent in the same “e-mail newsletter” format designed to plug their stuff). Assisting them are webmasters who get a generous cut (Mystery’s site used to list $275.00 per referral for affiliate, which means one referral a week is a living for the affiliate).

A few webmasters have sites which serve up the ideal market on a silver platter to their sponsors. These sites are highly sought-after advertising venues. Normally, as in magazines or newspapers, they would have a rate card and as long as they haven’t excluded an entire industry or other class of people, every company has the same access to that audience. This is not the case on the internet.

At the very least, even if a court were to find this behavior okay, the sites still become compensated endorsers rather than portals, as a true portal would be 100 percent neutral.

On my site, I take ads from anyone who meets my specifications. Even on my “buy the author” promotion, where people get my books (and updates) for free if they purchase any affiliated product on my list (I do this through Clickbank, who can tell me who orders if I refer them so I know who to send the freebie to).

It’s a good model that any guru could use: basically a buy-one-get-one-free. In fact, several products that people praise are set up where the person could get that book for its price, or that book PLUS my book for the same price. If the other gurus did that, they could add their book as a freebie when people purchase mine, etc. (If I had an affiliate program). In that setup, I don’t even require a minimum spending amount. Someone gets my book free whether they buy a $10 book or a $40 book from my list.

What do you think would happen if the New York Times, say, were to say it would take ads from every soft-drink manufacturer except Pepsi? What if every newspaper suddenly did this?

>”A man should strive for an LTR
>with a woman so hot that even if
>it didn’t last, he’d still be
>better off for having had it
>(that mitigates the risks).”

“-How do you know if Lance is there? You were knocking him before just for being in an LTR. Now, you’re saying if it’s that great, it’s okay!?!? BACK PEDDLING.”

It’s possible that a 26 year-old software engineer is that “ideal hottie,” but if so, then she should be pretty damn famous by now. Is she in that league? Maybe. If so, more power to him. Odds are, however, that she’s a run-of-the-mill hottie who doesn’t stand out, which is what any AFC generally winds up with as long as he refuses the UGs.

I think Mystery’s supermodels are a little closer to that league personally, though I don’t see him in an LTR with one either. His last public LTR was Katya, who appeared to be a party-girl type. He talked about Ania, or a “coat check girl” who was 19, that he snatched from her “AFC fiance” (did the fiance take a workshop after that with someone? that’d be poetic). Was she a standout? Probably.

Still, Mystery talks about “hot game.” Ten years ago, I talked about CUPID ratings, while he was calling it DHV (Mystery and I both released our initial ideas at around the same time, to the same group, so I know exactly how his method evolved). In 1991, in “Black And Single,” Larry E. Davis (an actual Ph.D.) was calling it “romantic market value.” Other Ph.D.’s call it “sexual market value.”

When I wrote Outfoxing The Foxes, I deemed the SMV concept (as expressed by me through CUPID) to be worth the first four chapters as a way of explaining one’s value and their compatibility (which fluctuates with each woman’s specific value system). The remaining chapters dealt with how to apply the system, and Foxhunting was born.

Foxhunting is a pretty easy system. The first four steps (I have about 10 listed on my site) are the real key:

1. Raise your CUPID rating

2. Clean house (literally stop contacting everyone you know and let them back into your “new” life selectively). It’s necessary to do this because new people will relate to the “new” you while ones you know won’t unless forced to.

3. Lifestyle management. Adjusting one’s lifestyle to maximize seduction, i.e., through career choice, where one lives, even one’s daily routine such as getting morning coffee in a more target-rich environment, etc.

4. Get a gimmick. Gimmicks are how you get women to approach you, which is one reason I don’t have to approach (so much for the 5-4-5 format). This works great in strip clubs because the dancers have to approach to get tips. Cost is $1 per approach. If I get 3 percent lays then a lay will cost $33 in tips on average.

The rest of the system deals with how to run game once you’re dealing with a specific woman. The other books deal with understanding women in general, your competition among males, and win that competition. My premium book, Seduction Made Easy, deals with recent theory and how to combat that.

>”Customers operate from a frame
>of worship as a rule, which is
>also biased.”

“-Nice generalization. Your whole post is weak.”

If they pay $5k for a three-seminar set, or even $2k for one seminar, they are pretty enamored of whomever they are paying.

>EVERYONE READ THIS PART:
>ME: Which I don’t think I need
>to anymore, because everyone’s
>seen your character.

“RAY: Saying someone lacks character (or imputing it) is defamatory as well. If someone has to keep breaking the law to argue against me, maybe their arguments are weak.”

>-You’ve done your share of
>defaming in these posts. I’m
>QUITE FREE to say I don’t need
>to defend something for others,
>because they’ve seen your
>character already.

My character is fine. “Character” is also a legal term, and imputing poor character on someone implies that there is something to substantiate it.

Internet flames are not substantiation.

>”When someone crosses the line
>into lying, they should expect
>to have to defend themselves in
>a court of law.”

“-That’s not reality. You can find technicalities and bring them in to court, but it’s not living real life.”

Other gurus have threatened suits when they feel lied about. Someone has a double standard here.

>”What lie? Women are paid to
>assist in the workshops.”

“-Not to soothe shattered egos, though. Lie.”

The ego remark is clearly opinion. The factual claim that women are paid to work there is accurate.

Since these folks meet Lance’s girlfriend, she must be at these things too, and she definitely benefits if he earns more, even if she is not paid directly.

In chess, for example, you can’t market with such vague “props” because everything is objective. Checkmate is checkmate no matter who makes the move, and chess tecahers can prove themselves by playing directly against the student. If I beat someone with Black in thirteen moves they consider me qualified to teach them the opening, and so forth. Even the ratings of the students are verifiable, and a coach can point to their objective rating to further substantiate their teaching ability.

No “internet props” required. No hiding what one does from their “targets” required. Scrutiny in chess is welcomed and encouraged. In this business, they say “none of your business” if you ask for any type of real proof, yet they expect guys to spend thousands of dollars on the basis of these “internet props.”

Then, on top of it all, they try to censor anyone who points out what I just pointed out about the subjectivity of the analysis and the vagueness of the marketing.
Truffaut says:

June 12, 2006 at 9:10 pm

>> The “fool’s mate” and the “scholar’s mate” (the four-mover) have often been referred to interchangeably.

Ray, Ray, Ray,

This is why I said that there is no market for a chess book written by an “A” player. You don’t know what you are talking about.

Fool’s mate is a two-move checkmate and Scholar’s mate is a four-move checkmate. They are not interchangeable.

You probably think that the vagina and anus are interchangeable too.
NlpRapist says:

June 13, 2006 at 5:18 am

“I’m almost forty years old. Guys my age either find one woman hot enough and into us enough, they get money, go to a poor country, or they get off the playing field. I don’t care if you’re a celebrity, once you are forty in the US, you need money, power, or status to get laid without it turning into a very annoying headache. Even then it’s possible, but not something a smart man would subject himself to.”

Utter BULLSHIT!, speak for yourself. I’m 45 and I lay girls as young as 22. I work an average job and drive a 27 year old car…so much for your method huh.

You’ll never understand the POWER of just talking to a woman. I use no “gimmicks”..lol…chessboard…wear jeans, I just talk to them, using what I know of nlp based seduction, hense SS.

I’ve watched 60 year old naturals with girls hanging off them, you never will get it Ray.

You are a fucking LOSER with no social skills….you have NO idea how to interact with your fellow humans.

“You’re out here rather relentlessly endorsing a commercial product, however, which means your posts are designe to cause others to spend money on that product. You even seem to take it almost as a personal attack if someone challenges your statements about said commercial product.”

No, you dumbass!…hes stating his personal beliefs.
He has used a product that changed his life and he endorses it…idiot. You see this everyday…maybe you would too, if you dared to venture out in the world.

But you can’t, can you? Because you have PISSED OFF some many people with you VILE rants, now you have to live in a prison……..WELCOME To Ray World.
NlpRapist says:

June 13, 2006 at 6:49 am

Oh by the way, for you chess guys

Ray’s rating of 1900 was from 1990. It expired in 1996. So his rating is now ZERO.

Curious why the “chess master” doesn’t renew his rating…could it be because it would be so LOW now?…hmmmm.

Does anyone out there know of ANYTHING Ray has any skill in?
NlpRapist says:

June 13, 2006 at 7:55 am

Does anyone know if the “Covert Hypnosis” course by Kevin Hogan is any good?

Are there any NEW covert or conversation hypnosis courses that anyone has reviewed?

Thanks In Advance
NlpRapist says:

June 13, 2006 at 8:13 am

Well CONGRATULATIONS RAY!

This board is now dead. All thanks to you. You destroyed ASF with your vile rants and now you’ve done it here.
Hope you are all proud of yourself.
Someone needs to run the Darkside Pattern on your ass.
Truffaut says:

June 13, 2006 at 10:21 am

>>> Does anyone out there know of ANYTHING Ray has any skill in?

His top three skills seem to be -

1.) Delusional Thinking
2.) Anti-Social Behavior

and as you said

3.) Destroying Seduction Chat Boards
Truffaut says:

June 13, 2006 at 10:32 am

>>> “I’m almost forty years old. Guys my age either find one woman hot enough and into us enough, they get money, go to a poor country, or they get off the playing field. I don’t care if you’re a celebrity, once you are forty in the US, you need money, power, or status to get laid without it turning into a very annoying headache. Even then it’s possible, but not something a smart man would subject himself to.”

Ray,
I am 47 years old and unemployed. I currently have three girlfriends. I DO NOT live with my mother and I have NEVER purchased any of your seduction products.

I am a happy man.

Bon Appetit Gentlemen!
ForcedToRegister says:

June 13, 2006 at 2:59 pm

“Nothing is verified with all these “internet props.” Scrutiny of the women, the lay reports, and the technique the lays are attributed to is all impossible.”

-You’re missing the point. The community seems to be happy with it, so why worry about it just for you.

-That means you messed up somewhere along the way, whether it was posting in the manner you are now or sending out the same bad vibe I get or whatever. People don’t exclude for no reason at all.

——————————————–
“Why am I not shocked that a “player” would laugh at a gang-rape or try to blame the woman for it?”

-THIS IS EXACTLY WHY YOU’RE WEIRD. You accuse someone of blaming a rape on the girl, then accuse them of laughing at a rape when they’re really laughing at YOUR accusation of them.

This is like a little kid trying to make fun of an older crowd, but the older crowd just finds it funny no matter how hard and seriously the little kid tries.

——————————————-
“Yet here he is, continuing to post after he said he was “done” with it.”

-MISQUOTE AGAIN. I DARE you to find a quote where I said I was all done with you. You can’t, because you’re lying. THAT’S youre character.

——————————————–
“Several sponsors have made direct reference to it or otherwise displayed knowledge of it.”

-That’s what I thought, over inflation of the truth. Once again, why people reply to you like they do.

———————————————
“On my site, I take ads from anyone who meets my specifications.”

-What if their specifications are not to send out a really weird vibe to visitors and what if they feel you do that, so THAT’S why you’re excluded.

———————————————
“It’s possible that a 26 year-old software engineer is that “ideal hottie,” but if so, then she should be pretty damn famous by now. Is she in that league? Maybe. If so, more power to him.”

-So, you’re DECIDING FOR LANCE what his ideal woman is? AND you implied earlier what he was doing is AFC..and you’re saying AFC involves not having that ideal girl, yet, but you don’t know if he does. That’s lying to make him suit your image.

———————————————-
“If they pay $5k for a three-seminar set, or even $2k for one seminar, they are pretty enamored of whomever they are paying.”

-BS They’re enamored with the results, not the instructor. Again, you’re setting off more RED FLAGS.

———————————————
“Character” is also a legal term, and imputing poor character on someone implies that there is something to substantiate it.”

-Good, then I impute poor character on you, based on how you handle yourself in conversation and assumptions you imply about others, passing them off as fact.

Other guys sue about real stuff, you sue about anything. We call that crybaby where I come from.

——————————
“The ego remark is clearly opinion.”

-If this is a defense to suits, than you should STFU about suits when I or others make statements that are clearly opinion.

———————————————–
BTW, HOW MANY SUITS HAVE YOU INITIATED OR TRIED TO INITIATE AND HOW MANY HAVE YOU COMPLETED WHERE COURT FINDS YOU IN TOTAL FAVOR???

———————————————-

And REMEMBER, this market is not just like chess. It involves real people, so feelings are an issue. You’re not going to be able to scrutinize in the same fashion. You’re just not.
Mystery says:

June 14, 2006 at 1:43 am

Ray, until Thundercat bans you, you win. I am cutting Thundercat’s site out of my weekly reading/posting ritual.

*shrug*

This site just isnt big enough for the both of us … you win Ray. You have derailed too many threads and well, you just aren’t fun … nor eduational.

You get to post here instead of me. This little bit of free online real estate is now yours.

Congratulate yourself.

Im in the UK with my girl. Im in love … but you win.

Love Mystery

——————-

*** END OF THREAD ***