Phone game crap
April 16, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Rants & Reviews
I was on the phone today with a girl. I’ve been "sort of" seeing her for a while now, and we talk on the phone pretty reguarly. Tonight was probably our longest conversation, since we’re usually so busy. She was upset about something that happened to her at work and spent 98% of the conversation using me as her emotional tampon. At first I was making some jokes about her situation, and she’d laugh, but then she’d get right back into talking about how bad her day was. I really didn’t want to hear about it, but she seemed dead set on venting. So I turned it around by becoming an authority on the problem she was having and told her how to handle it.
This girl responds REALLY well to me taking a strong lead. I can remember one time I left her a message telling her that she MUST call me back a certain time, not a minute later, not a minute sooner, and you know what? She did. She told me how she likes it when I tell her what to do (ah, the possibilities!).
Anyway, I found it interesting because back in my AFC days, I’d have let her drone on and on about what was grieving her and try to relate to her situation. But by the end of me telling her what she had to do, she was ready to move on to more enjoyable topics, which I obliged by doing a few guided visualizations with her.
Back in my SS days, I did this a lot on the phone. I don’t really do too much hypno-stuff anymore, but I busted out the old skillset, dropped my tonality, changed the pacing of my voice, and did the "Ideal Vacation" thing with her. I figured a girl who likes guidance this much would go gaga over one of these visualization things. Turns out I was right. =)
This one’s getting close, boys. I’ts not "fast seduction" per say, but it’s low maintenence and fun. I’d be curious to hear about other people’s phone games, and the stuff they do with women. After a while I just tend to drop all routines and be myself (usually after the 3rd phone convo). Let me know if you guys got any tricks.
KennethDuh on 
alkogolizmomskKax on 
DarrylSlura on 
Diplomi_jwKa on 
Thundercat wrote:
>This girl responds REALLY well to me taking a strong lead.
>I can remember one time I left her a message telling her
>that she MUST call me back at a certain time, not a minute later,
>not a minute sooner, and you know what? She did. She told me
>how she likes it when I tell her what to do (ah, the possibilities!).
The truly sensual/sexual submissive women love to follow the lead of a man who can DRIVE LIKE A MAN. It makes her feel like a WOMAN. It makes her feel ALIVE. Ah yes, the possibilities.
>But by the end of me telling her what she had to do, she was
>ready to move on to more enjoyable topics, which I obliged
>by doing a few guided visualizations with her.
She was ready to be lead by you. She was ready to savor being the sexually submissive sensual woman that she loves to be.
>I don’t really do too much hypno-stuff anymore, but I busted
>out the old skillset, dropped my tonality, changed the pacing
>of my voice, and did the “Ideal Vacation” thing with her.
>I figured a girl who likes guidance this much would go gaga
>over one of these visualization things. Turns out I was right. =)
Just think how gaga she would get if you were to get into the Really Good stuff? She is obviously a very receptive subject that is begging to be lead by you. Oblige her. If you expect your woman to be all woman for you, you have to be all man for her.
>After a while I just tend to drop all routines and be myself
>(usually after the 3rd phone convo).
What excuse do you have for not being you from the very start? How do you think you feels about you not being you? Probably not very good for the self respect. Self respect above all else!
>Let me know if you guys got any tricks.
You have my book Thundercat. Start using the tricks in that.
David Shade
http://www.davidshade.com
I picked this up from a DYD newsletter a while back, I just always say something like “Listen, my therapy rates are $250/hr, I’m damn good and I’m in much too good of a mood to listen to this bullshit for free.”
reformed afc’s have the biggest misconception that you can’t help a girl out and still be attractive to her. as long as you have strong character, it doesnt matter
The only place I like to be submissive is in the bedroom. NOWHERE ELSE! If a man leaves me a phone message like the one you left her, unless it was urgent (life or death) you’d be lucky to hear from me again. My response would be, “I’ll call when I damn well please, thank you very much,” I don’t respond well to being dominated, again unless it’s in the bedroom, then I’ll be, well, your bitch.
And…I may ask my man’s opinion about a situation, but in the end, I make my own decisions and solve my own problems. I had one boyfriend who couldn’t make a decision to save his life, and who liked me to take the lead. If we had to get rough with somebody he called me in. The relationship didn’t last, it couldn’t. I had no respect for him.
What to say to a woman’s who won’t stop yapping on the phone? “Baby sleep on it for now. You’re a smart woman, you’ll figure it out. In the mean time, how would you like to come over and get fucked?” We also like when men believe in us to step back and let us handle ourselves.
Now here is an example of an independent, high self esteem, sexually submissive woman. The classic “Daddy’s Girl.” The ideal subject. The classic traits are as follows…
sexkitten wrote:
>The only place I like to be submissive is
>in the bedroom. NOWHERE ELSE!
>I don’t respond well to being dominated, unless it’s
>in the bedroom, then I’ll be, well, your bitch.
Exactly. Independent high self esteem women are fully capable of handling their own life and don’t want to be told what to do. But in the bedroom, they celebrate their sexuality by being TOLD what to do. In the living room they expect to be treated with respect, but in the bedroom they long to be fucked like the very naughty horny little cum slut fuck bitch that they love to be. It’s how they define themselves as feminine. It is the classic dichotomy of a Daddy’s Girl psyche.
>I may ask my man’s opinion about a situation,
>but in the end, I make my own decisions and
>solve my own problems.
Again, such women do not want to be told what to do. In actuality, they want to share with their man what is going on in their life, they want their man to be part of their life, they want their man to believe in them, but they do NOT want their man to tell them what to do.
>I had one boyfriend who couldn’t make a
>decision to save his life, and who liked me to
>take the lead. If we had to get rough with
>somebody he called me in. The relationship didn’t last,
>it couldn’t. I had no respect for him.
Respect. That is the key word. I have spoken about that at length. It is the key ingredient required for a Daddy’s Girl to be responsive to her man. She expects her man to be decisive, tough, and dominant. Basically, she expects her man to BE THE MAN.
>What to say to a woman who won’t stop
>yapping on the phone? “Baby sleep on it for
>now. You’re a smart woman, you’ll figure it
>out. In the mean time, how would you like to
>come over and get fucked?” We also like when
>men believe in us to step back and let us handle ourselves.
Another typical trait of Daddy’s Girls – they talk a lot. And that’s a good thing. In actuality, they just want you to believe in them and validate them by simply listening to them and letting them vent. When they have vented enough, you validate their feelings, and then you simply instruct them to get on all fours and take it up the ass like the horny little slut that they are. They fucking LOVE it. It is a VERY powerful thing to them.
David Shade
http://www.davidshade.com
“I was on the phone today with a girl. I’ve been “sort of” seeing her for a while now, and we talk on the phone pretty reguarly.”
Ha ha ha. “Sort of seeing”? Translation: Thundy
hasn’t fucked her and probably hasn’t even touched her yet. But he’s so hungry for female
validation, in HIS mind he’s “seeing her”…sorta.
“Tonight was probably our longest conversation, since we’re usually so busy.”
Translation: SHE’s too busy to actually meet
up with HIM because she’s just not interested!
“She was upset about something that happened to her at work and spent 98% of the conversation using me as her emotional tampon.”
Wow. But at least it’s attention from a woman, right Thundy? AND you are giving advice to other guys? YOU dare to ridicule me when you can’t even
see what a loser you are in this situation?
“At first I was making some jokes about her situation, and she’d laugh, but then she’d get right back into talking about how bad her day was. I really didn’t want to hear about it, but she seemed dead set on venting. So I turned it around by becoming an authority on the problem she was having and told her how to handle it.”
Turned it around? All you did was reinforce
her using you to dump on. Now, since you are an
“authority” on her problems, she’ll keep coming
back to YOU for this crap!
“This girl responds REALLY well to me taking a strong lead. ”
Yep. That’s why she makes time to actually SEE you in person and fuck you!
Are you deluded or what?
“Anyway, I found it interesting because back in my AFC days”
Bwahahaha. You are talking about your “AFC days” like they are in the past, and you tell us in almost the same breath how this girl uses you as her emotional tampon?
,her.
“Back in my SS days, I did this a lot on the phone. I don’t really do too much hypno-stuff anymore, but I busted out the old skillset, dropped my tonality, changed the pacing of my voice, and did the “Ideal Vacation” thing with her. I figured a girl who likes guidance this much would go gaga over one of these visualization things. Turns out I was right. =)”
NOW you are talking. So did you challenge her to imagine just how far she could explore her good feelings when you actually can spend time together? And then set up a meet? Or did you go wack off when you hung up the phone?
“This one’s getting close, boys. I’ts not “fast seduction” per say, but it’s low maintenence and fun. ”
It’s not any seduction at all, except the SS stuff DOES seem to be working. Now bridge/future pace her enjoying more when you meet up.
Doofus.
RJ
http://www.seduction.com
the original seduction site
I innovate; they masturbate
Posted by Th
Thundercat, is it me or some part of you really doesn’t want to get laid?(I mean, why don’t you persist, why don’t you take it to the next level?)
And stop thinking like “first two phone convos I’m not myself, the third I’m myself blah blah etc…”. Listen, I got news for you.
You are always yourself. You decided to use tactic x or routine z, not anyone else, so why you think you are not “your self”?
I mean, if something works for you, keep it!If it doesn’t get you results, forget it, throw it out of your head, try something else.
You don’t need to always listen what “the big guns in the community” say. If theyr theories work for you, fine use them, if no forget them(in fact theyr theories aren’t often right, but if theiy believe in them strongly, it gets them the confidence and congruence that is very important).
Trust your intuition. Asks anyone who is good with women is congruency important. Well, what do you think congruency is? It is what your intuition tells you to do/to say. So do what you think is best to do and when something doesn’t get the results you want, try something else.
Persist. If you want to get sex of coz.
I like David’s responses. In short: be a man. A sexual man. Listen when she wants to say something(you don’t need to get involved in her problems, also you don’t need to listen for hours to her problems on phone), and remember what is primal instinct:)
And don’t care what Ross says. He just wants to put you down and feel better himself this way. Probbably he wants to put down all the world. And he still can’t get the women he wants. It is funny, something that he teaches works for others, but not for himself.
I wish you the best luck Thundercat.(read jugglers archive, I like his laid back, positive and simple perspective).
One word for RJ’s post – TROLL
Yeah man – notice how every else offers constructive suggestions while RJ just wants to take a slam at Thundercat.
Shows you what kind of person he is as well as the caliber of what he teaches -
Coolblue
The reply from RJ implies many negative things about his self esteem and mental state, and frankly it is shocking. I am extremely surprised he doesn’t realize how he comes across to other people, considering the claim to be a seduction expert.
How could he be so unaware of how others perceive him, and at the same time have the gall to charge people money for advice on women?
The only conclusion one can come to is that RJ needs to seriously re-evaluate his “inner game”.
Ross must have X-ray eyes. He sees right through all the weasely, beat-off-around-the-bush, BS in the original article and boiled it down to the cold hard facts of the case. As a personality, you guys can knee-jerk and knock him all you want, but you can’t argue with the substance of his assessment of the situation, can you?
You sound like an SS zombie Shinji – and you’re probably really Ross anyway considering your presupposition that the original article was BS.
As far as substance – uhhh… WHAT substance? All I read about in Ross’s comments were “knocks and knee jerk” comments toward Thundercat – you seem to have it backwards my friend.
The sad thing is, there is no more validity in SS now that Swinggcat , Rick H., Mark Cunningham, David D. and others like IN10SE are not a part of it. Better for them.
And I really wonder that guys like this would have had probably had success with women regardless of whether they were a part of SS or not. Too bad that RJ seems to have lost all of his greatest social proof for SS – his best students who have since found better ways and better systems – like RSD, Mystery Method, Swinggcats method, and DYD.
Wake up and smell the coffee Shinji -
Deepblue
“Too bad that RJ seems to have lost all of his greatest social proof for SS – his best students”
But every time someone like Thundercat uses Ross’ stuff (ideal vaction? where have I heard that before?) and gets good results it IS social proof for Ross.
David is right on the spot, the most important part about phone game is leading. Personally, as I don’t have much time for phone chats, I limit calls to schedule meetings. I believe that you need to build enough attraction in the first meet, so that you can “call back” to that attraction in the first phone call and it will warrant a meet.
-Sir
PS: And let us know when you finally *close her.
“Ross must have X-ray eyes. He sees right through all the weasely, beat-off-around-the-bush, BS in the original article and boiled it down to the cold hard facts of the case. As a personality, you guys can knee-jerk and knock him all you want, but you can’t argue with the substance of his assessment of the situation, can you? ”
Thanks. And note that none of the flamers can
argue with any of the analysis I made, nor does Thundercat.
Thundy was engaging in exactly the kind
of rationalization and self-deception I’ve seen
the most stuck guys saddle themselves with; and it IS keeping him stuck.
Here is the irony; I am the only person in this community who could fix his inner game. I totally see where he is stuck, what levels need to be adjusted, and could get him past the filters of shame, self-loathing, frustration and fear that are keeping him stuck. Tops it would take 3 sessions and about 2-3 weeks of practice on his part.
I’ve even offered to bury the hatchet and work with him, FREE, on his inner game, but he refuses out of fear that I am trying to make him “beta”. Whereas, the reality is, it’s in my own best interests to help him; imagine the value of a testimonial from one of my most vicious critics when he says, “Ross fixed my inner game. Totally”.
Thundy, the offer is still on the table. Will have to be the 2-3 weeks of May when I get back from NYC, but the offer is open. I stand ready with every tool and technique at my command(and NO ONE in this field even claims to have the ability to fix inner game as I do) to free you from all this limiting crap. Let’s bury the hatchet and get you moving.
After that, my top student, Vince, will take you sarging and show you, up close and in person, just what SS can do, IN THE FIELD.
Everyone’s watching and waiting, Thundy.
RJ
Posted by: Shinji at April 19, 2004 11:43 AM
“The sad thing is, there is no more validity in SS now that Swinggcat , Rick H.,, David D. and others like IN10SE are not a part of it”
Wow. Thanks for acknowledging the creative source from which all the imitators have arisen. . 80% of Swingcat’s key concepts he lifted directly from stuff in my material, most notably his stuff about intent and frames.
David D is so pale an imitation, he’s no longer worth mentioning.
Rick H. was never much a part of it, but I still like Rick. He’s a great guy. Who could not like Rick?
By the way..NONE of the guys you mentioned have a clue or a concept for helping someone’s inner game. NONE.
” Too bad that RJ seems to have lost all of his greatest social proof for SS ”
Social proof? I have the testimonials and skills of my students. Have you met Vince K. yet?
-” his best students who have since found better ways and better systems – like RSD, Mystery Method, Swinggcats method, and DYD.”
Rubbish. Tyler and Owen are not and never have been my student. Nor has Mystery(who uses SS by the way once women are isolated, he’s said so himself). Swingcat is so imitative, it’s ridiculous. And DYD..don’t make me laugh. What’s original isn’t good and what’s good isn’t original.
“Wake up and smell the coffee Shinji -”
So where specifically in my analysis of Thundy’s fuck up do you find disagreement?
http://www.seduction.com
They imitate
I originate
Hey RJ,
You took the idea of frames DIRECTLY from the work of BANDLER AND GRINDER. What would you have done if it weren’t for using concepts like embedded commands, anchoring, sub-modalities, and …
You imitated. It wasn’t your original idea. You applied it to seduction and claimed yourself as originator.
You took most of your so called concepts DIRECTLY from the book “TRANCE-FORMATIONS”. Patterns like stacked realities …all come form there.
You also took many ideas from their other books, and from other NLP people.
The stuff that Swingcat talks about in his book is not a result of your work. Who said you originated FRAMES? Or prizing, or open-loops, or revealing & concealing, or cold-reading, or qualifying, or…
JUST BECAUSE BANDLER & GRINDER WERE SO BUSY DOING OTHER STUFF AND BECAUSE YOUR MARKET DIDN’T OVERLAP THEIR MARKET DOESN’T MEAN YOU DIDN’T STEAL ALMOST ALL OF YOUR SO CALLED ORIGINAL CONCEPTS FROM THEM.
Mark Cunningham taught you a great deal, e.g. symbol fractionation and now you claim it as yours.
Now you have turned to yoga. I wonder why it didn’t cross your intelligent mind before, to tap into that, and try to commercialize yoga as a seduction tool. Why didn’t you advocate yoga in DC2000?
In a tape you said something in the lines of “if your car in broken down in highway, do you want someone who’ll tell you that the universe is ultimately perfect or you want someone who can get the fucking car running?”
Now in the above metaphor, your SS system DOESN’T get the fucking car running. At least not all on its own.
No wonder your CURRENT top student Vince is clinical hypnotherapist. Talk about applicability of your system by ANYONE, as it is so clearly shown on your site. LOL
AN OPEN LETTER TO ALL CAMPS IN THE COMMUNITY
As a student of both RJ’s previously (some guys may rememember me I told a success story at the London 2001 seminar), and currently learning and evolving my game using skillsets from people like mystery, Swingcat, RSD, DYD etc. Can I please ask a respectful CUT THE BULLSHIT to EVERYONE in this community?!!
In my personal experience there are aspects of both “camps” games that are useful and there are aspects that are less than useful – everything depends on CONTEXT and a healthy dose of commmon sense.
Would it not be more useful to EVERYONE involved if people like RJ were to work synergistically with people like Mystery and TD?
(Personally I’d like to hear how Ross does his inner game work and how he overcomes stumbling blocks for people… and I’d like to hear how Mystery uses SS during isolation… also I remember Swingcat saying something about using hypnosis to make out with girls within 10 minutes… am I the only person who wants to know how he does this???)
Would ALL our skills not be amplified if everything were weighed on its on merit (i.e. exactly how does this work in field) rather than on its source?
I’m not saying who’s to blame and who isn’t and who’s the biggest crybaby… can we all agree to meet on a forum and discuss things in a peer review fashion… without all the flame wars (overt or otherwise) occupying bandwith that could be used more productively?
Enigma
- by Choumoux -
Still today, my biggest intellectual surprise while learning seduction stuff, is the pervading counter-intuitivity of the knowledge and technology of seduction matters. Paradoxes, sort of.
Ex: be gushing from the heart, the chick rejects you for being weak, needy, for your sheer incapacity to create sexual tension basically. counter intuitive stuff.
Supposing that the mere idea of a big Unity and cooperation and super-Friendship between camps be possible, I ask: if the seduction gurus were to syndicate, would it be better?
Isn’t competition at the core of progress, at least as we conceive it in the occidental world?
I’m convinced Ross Jeffries as well as his challengers will come up with improved technology, as a result of the constant “reality check” created by the competition. They will refine their techniques, their business, their prices, their customer care, their product supports and designing. Ross might even come up with workshops, as he once suggested…
Of course, competition implies some risks like the pollution of our mind by the unfair relabelling, repackaging or masquerading of existent concepts, systems or techniques into “new” products / “new” methods. Thus a loss of efficiency, also reinforced by the multiplicity of products and eventual confusion in the “student’s” mind.
the other risk is that gurus could waste some of their time, talent and energy in the by-products of competition (flaming, justifying themselves, observing the “enemy’s moves”.) instead of innovating, working on their business etc. Although we can’t blame such or such guru for leaping to the defence of their intellectual honour, authorship, ego.
I think those are minor risks as the community is evolving into a mature entity.
To come back to the subject of this thread, I agree with shinji’s point that RJ deals with the substance of Thundercat’s post.
Ross Jeffries wrote: “Are you deluded or what?”
He simply points out Thundercat’s limiting frame of mind or perspective. Ross doesn’t do it in an utterly elegant manner, but he is dead on accurate nontheless! It also reminds me of RJ’s point about the reforming of guys’ inner game, or attitude. Tackling limiting perspectives is a huge part of the reforming of one’s capacity to be successful on a consistant basis. You can’t wake up a deeply asleep guy wispering lullabies, it takes a hammer and a frying pan bang to do it!
It’s for sleeping Thundy’s sake! And you get further proof of that reading that Ross is “generously” offering reforming help to Thundy
cf RJ:
“I’ve even offered to bury the hatchet and work with him, FREE, on his inner game, but he refuses out of fear that I am trying to make him “beta”. Whereas, the reality is, it’s in my own best interests to help him; imagine the value of a testimonial from one of my most vicious critics when he says, “Ross fixed my inner game. Totally”.
Are you guys fucking blind to reality or totally dumb or totally biased by your standing in Thundy’s camp???
Beyond the outrageous FORMULATION of Ross Jeffries’ comments, there’s SUBSTANCE indeed.
Not a single person as argued with THAT! i take it as proof that you posting bullies, are not going to the full extent of the criticism…
As PUAs / apprentice PUAs you should know that surface meaning is sometimes the OPPOSITE of deep, real meaning.
Counter-intuitive stuff, AGAIN OH MY BROTHERS!
Hey, by the way, I gotta admit I go for Ross’s view here… I’m a bit biased too…Sorry… I always lean a bit towards INTELLIGENCE, REASON and PROOF!