BadBoy vs. TD?

There’s an interesting thing going on in the PUA community right now, where you two incredibly skilled and gifted pick-up artists and teachers — namely Croation PUA BadBoy and the Famous Tyler Durden — who are at a philisophical divergence that is causing a great deal of interesting debate.

The thing is, both of these guys are very skilled and charismatic, so they each have strong followers.  There have been quite a few "converts" from the TD camp into the BadBoy camp after taking workshops, with lots of people quoting a "shift in perspective."  In fact, it can be said there is a lot of hostility from BadBoy’s followers towards Tyler and his methodology for some reason, even though the two men seem to have a professional respect for each other.

There has been a big debate on Mystery’s Lounge about this interesting "locking of horns" in terms of pick-up philosophy.  Recently, BadBoy posted an article in the Advanced forum of mASF that brings the debate back to the forefront.

BadBoy writes:
Ok, I but lot of guys still wonder atound community, about me & Shark….and yes I agree we are big enigma here(at least for guys who never met us)

We designed really nice lifestyle here, and we dont post as much as some ppl. expect from us.

I will try with this post to bring us closer to community, and explain few stuff we do, that are still WOW here.

Like 5 years ago, I found community(asf when old school was there(tokio_pua, nightlight, maniac….etc etc)

When now, I take a look to my before PUA period, I always had a GF’s, not on regular basis, but it wasmore LTRs from time to time 6months, 1 year..etc with some space between ltrs where I would enjoy my ‘freedom’

I was learning routines, and routines when I found asf… just like you right now….cause back then, there was nobody with complete understanding of woman, and guys thought the more routines, more girls…..now I see that, it was big mistake of that period…..

But we all learned something from them….

Thx. For old-school guys

After I meet shark, and other naturals, I found really interesting things, like that they dont have some model’s, routines, negs, disinterest and other stuff, that we discuss here…..

And I saw few guys getting laid more without all stuff here, then then guys here get laid with all those advanced theories….

That made me wonder for a long time…..

As I already had attitude, confidence, it was just to make those things even stronger….

Learning lot of routines in those years, and talking with lot of.ppl, my delivery of stories went close to perfect…(that was crutial here)

Now, in last few months I went 100% Sharks direct game….

Why??

Cause I already had wild confidence, attitudes, good delivery…

I at first, I thoought there in no way its gonna work…compliments, being direct about what you want, honest….

It was against everything that this community teach you…..

From indirect to totally direct, was really big jump…..as I never had those things, that I would appear disinterest into her…I way always alpha, and facing her…. but again jumping direct to target into set, was wow.. breaking every possible rule in this community…

First, you find community, and they they teach you to go against society, and now I was again braing rules, and going against comminity….

Hmm….as I saw that It works, I gived a shoot, ad you would not believe….its best thing that exist out there…

Let me explain little bit whats behind being direct Vs indirect….

You all know what you get when being indirect…you know that!

Now…

Game is still same… attraction-rapport…fuck

Lets take a look what ‘You look very nice, I want to get to know you’ shark’s direct opener does…

We al know. That attraction must be from both sides…mystery’s (M2f and F2m)

Why??if chick is attracted to you, you must show that you also like her… otherwise you are total player, and she is worried about whole thing….

So in good PU.. you must show that you LIKE her…

Shark does that on opener…"You look very nice , you are beautifull"…… whatever compliment he does..

So she knows he is attracted….yes but not like anyother chump that is attracted….

Why?? CAUSE he wants TO GET TO KNOW HER, not fuck her…….he wants to talk to her……

Here you must do DHV, but not with any story or routine, its done with alpha bodylanguage, and confidence

If you are the fucking MAN, you are instantly way beyond her…. and that’s best DHV isn’t it??

If you look like LSE pussy, opener will never work…

Of course when man like this approach her, without any bullshit…. and wants to get to know her….of course girl is attracted…..

Even hottest ones…..

Now, as I never write anytthing without some purpose, let me explain why I found this as best method for me…..

Cause after opener chicks you open will talk most of time…its totally crazy…… you may not believe, but this is amaizing….

They shoot stories, routines,they qualify themself to you….. and you just listen and bullshit…oh..yes….yes…thats nice…. cute…..you are the best…
What a role change!

When you build good rapport, after 30-60minminutes(actually she rapports herself) LOL, you can isolate and fuck her….

Now, what I am talking about here, is 90% of inner game…..if you stand like you need to stand in set(Alpha, using lot of space), you’ll never have a problem anymore with guys trying to AMOG you….NEVER…ever!!!!

I mean, go take a look my photos of bodylanguage example…and ask yourself……who do fuck has guts to go amog guy like that?????

Even here in eastern-europe guys are affraid to cockblock me…… I can imagine how in states effect will have this alpha bodylanguage.

Probably, I am only guy in community, who can get laid doing both games(indirect and direct), besides my students who also get laid using both styles.

As I can see both sides, I will tell you, both sides are good…..

Get some game, deshying, confidence, and attitude using indirect, then go full direct….. thats best IMO..

Thats exactly how I structured my workshops…2 days of routines, female opinion kinda like openers, then 3rd day droping off all stuff and going full direct…

Lot of guys asked me how do students get so much confidence in just 3 days…I would say…structure of Workshop….., and their IMPROVEMENT…

Btw. When I come to states, its gonna be 4days workshop, 3days of indirect, and 1day of shark’s OR 2days of indirect, and 2 days of shark’s….

So every student will be able to get laid using both methods….I still need to think what concept its gonna be best….

Guys, see U in summer…. cant wait….

This brought on a response by Tyler.

Tyler Durden writes:
Hey Badboy. Interesting post. I wrote to Shark on the Lounge about this, but he didn’t have much to say on it perhaps because he is busy. I’m hoping that he’ll write more on it, because I am interested.

I have a lot of questions that I think represent the guys on ASF. I want to ask them, to give you a chance to talk more about your direct style, because I think most people don’t understand it. Also I am very curious myself, and looking forward to hanging with you again to see how your game has progressed since London.

Your intuition for game is amazing, and you really know your stuff. I’ve heard great things from our friends. I’m hoping you could clear up a lot of misunderstandings that I have, because I am unclear on many things.

Comments inline.

On 4/1/04 3:09:00 PM, croBadboy wrote:

From the impression that I get, you and Shark are putting too much emphasis on the opener.

To me, I get attraction no matter how I go in. No matter what, the girls are attracted. Why is the opener so important?

Despite that I can use both, I find opinion openers smoother, because it engages the group for the 30 seconds I need to get indicators of interest and pull the girl away from the set. I find by going in direct, I can get attraction just as quickly (because my fundamentals are 100% down), but because she knows that I am approaching to pick her up, her ASD is more likely to go up if she has a boyfriend or friends watching.

In the same way, I can say "Let’s go back to my house for sex", and because my game is good enough I can do this. But its even smoother if I just say "Let’s go check out those videos I made in Sydney".

As with whether or not I go direct, I’ll get the same result because I play hard and don’t fail. But one way is smoother than the other.
>Game is still same…
>attraction-rapport…fuck

Yes. I agree. So for me, I use:

-attract
-qualify (compliment, or "go direct")
-extract

You guys use:

-qualify (go in direct)
-attract
-extract

I’m unclear why you guys find this better. I am very interested too, because I know you guys know and have used MM in the past (not Shark, but you), so I know that what you guys have to say comes from an informed position, as opposed to some lameasses just talking shit but don’t have context.

To me, either model works because I gain attraction in 99% of sets, but the first is more consistent because of boyfriends, etc.

Why do you guys find the second more consistent?

>Why??if chick is attracted to
>you, you must show that you
>also like her… otherwise you
>are total player, and she is
>worried about whole thing….

Agreed. So why does qualifying first, attracting second change this perception? To my mind, going in and verbalizing your attraction puts you in the category of the 10 other drunk guys that night who did the same.

>So in good PU.. you must show
>that you LIKE her…

Yes. Why not hold off 1 minute until she’s had a chance to hear your tonality and actually look you over, until making her decide if she likes you back? I don’t understand.

Like, I agree with everything you say about bodylanguage and tonality. This is very obvious to me, as I can’t even go near any of my friends girlfriends without them trying to hook up with me, and this is of course without any material. (as a result, I literally cover my face and leave the second any of my friends bring their GFs near me, unless its one of my PUA friends).

But if I walk through her set and just say "I like you", her autopilot response is first going to screen (as 10 other drunk guys used this identical line tonight, at least here in America), and then I am left to plow through. I can do this. It is impossible for me at this point in my game to have any set not be fully on. But I’m looking for the path of least resistance, and to me qualifying (going direct) from the first sentence does not make it easier.

Like, when I do direct, I don’t have initially reacting like "OMG, finally a guy has said this to me" – because many guys did this tonight. Opinion openers, OTOH, nobody used.

I will just continue regardless of what she thinks of it, and I’ll gain attraction. But it wasn’t BETTER to do it this way. Just different.

>Here you must do DHV, but not
>with any story or routine, its
>done with alpha bodylanguage,
>and confidence

This was another thing I don’t understand. To me, good bodylanguage and tonality is just the bear minimum entry cutoff point. Like, there will be many other alphas in the club who have this as well. I don’t know about any SUPER bodylanguage that exists. There’s just the bodylanguage of cool guys (who take up space, and move at the right tempo, as you say and I agree with), who are the only people that hotties will even give the time of day to. But from there you still have to back it up by being interesting.

So even if my bodylanguage is perfect (which mine is at this point, as it is not rocket science or overly complicated), I’ve still been successful only in taking myself out of the 98% of AFCs, and put myself into the 2% of natural alpha category. But that category is still like 10 other guys in the club. So why is she going to pick me?

Well, for me its because I have a better approach. The girls always say "I love how you just came in and were comfortable to just talk, instead of being all sexually needy like every other guy who talks to me".

>If you are the fucking MAN,
>you are instantly way beyond
>her…. and that’s best DHV
>isn’t it??

I think given between having the right inner game, or having no inner game but DHVs, I’d pick inner game.

But I also think that you need both.

I also think its a more realistic learning strategy to learn DHVs first, to give you something to say to get experience under your belt, and then from there dropping them to see for yourself that sets will hold without them.

But from there, like I said in the "sets with energy/material vs frame" post, its beneficial to bring them back in.

>Cause after opener chicks you
>open will talk most of
>time…its totally crazy……
>you may not believe, but this
>is amaizing….

This is the best advantage IMO. For me, I get this same advantage by hooking the girl, and then acting like I’ll walk off if she doesn’t keep me there. It works very well. I can’t see why going in by saying that I like her will improve this.

>They shoot stories,
>routines,they qualify themself
>to you….. and you just
>listen and
>bullshit…oh..yes….yes…th
>ats nice…. cute…..you are
>the best…
>What a role change!

Agreed. Juggler told me this on his workshop as well: "There are two types of alpha behaviours. One holds the centre of attention. The other doesn’t say much, but everything the person is saying is qualifying to them. Use both."

>Probably, I am only guy in
>community, who can get laid
>doing both games(indirect and
>direct), besides my students
>who also get laid using both
>styles.

I can and have gotten laid using both, as can Mystery although he is married now so I guess its just me and you bro..

I think you raise a great point, btw, that many guys read posts about routines and don’t calibrate their bodylanguage and inner game. Your constant hammering of it is beneficial to the group, for sure.

I’ve met so many guys who have everything they read here memorized, but still don’t get laid.

Coolwater was a guy who I hung out with last week in Australia, and knew EVERYTHING about material. But he wasn’t getting the results he wanted. I calibrated his bodylanguage for 8 hours straight (literally, when we debrief we aren’t saying "use this material like this", but instead are calibrating his speed, movements, sexuality, eye contact, vocal pitch, aggressively moving the girl around, etc), and since then he’s had 5 different girls fooling around with him in his bed in a week (full montied one of them, and will do day2s for the rest). So that is an example of where bodylanguage stuff is so key.

But of course, he never dropped his DHVs. So how would dropping them have helped him even more? Or going in direct?

Curious.

So BadBoy shouts back with this…

BadBoy writes:
Hhaa, why whenever I think its totally clear, it shows opposite…
Ok…
Answers to Td…
Td, you still dont understand why direct is more cool then indirect…
First, take a look how you are trying so hard to get attraction… using million of C&F routines,,,push-pull, and girl is attracted.Ok but now take a look how we get attraction
ON mother fucking opener….when I say ‘you are beautifull, I want to get know you….’
I get all attraction I need to fuck her
Actually my bodylanguage is crtial here….that means, deep seducive voice, eyecontact,speed
of movemnets, the way you walk….. etc
Now what happens….dorectly after opener, our chicks start talking 90\10 ratio…..
Thats a sign that she wants me really hard….so what we do????
We create rapport amd FUCK HER!!!!!!
That means structure of GOOD direct PU is
Opener
Rapport
Fuck
That is reason why we put so much imoportance on opener….. cause we get attraction from just opener….not later with some routines!!!!
That way energy you wasted in set is minimum….

Td, when you say your bodylanguage is close to perfect?? What does that means?, is that ALPHA bodylanguage I am talking about, or is your bodylanguage almost perfect to disinterest bodylanguage.
One thing you must understand, is when going direct, there is no more being fuckin disinterest…….

Also, I cracked laughting on your ‘ I can make any opener work…I can get laid with any opener’ LOL thats really funny…. Of course you can, I believe you.. but lets take a look why you can!!
Cause you can pull off everything you say later with your C&F…..like saying ‘I want to fuck you,… haa …but.. I dont like your hair…..’
Just like GM did it…years ago…. thats not secret… everybody here can do any opener work
On my workshops, we have basic exsersise where they practice to open set with most stupid thing on earth you can imagine….like ‘I want fuck’ or ‘lets go fish’
So that almost my every student can make any opener work…. thats not any big-deal its ‘how to deliver 101 basic’s’
But man, you have great middle, game, attraction…. where chicks go in trance….and thats really great skill… not so much guys on earth can do what you do with just delivery and stories…

.> As with whether or not I go direct, I’ll get the same result because I play hard and don’t fail. But one way is smoother than the other.
Ok … here is a challenge for you…. When you do this sucessfully, I will admit you mastered direct approaching
1)go in with shark’s direct opener and bodylanguage
2) create attraction in first 10 sec. so you can focus on rapport, and to get comfort-connection-trust
3) forget your standard game of C&F and teasing, cause in direct game, you don’t need this shit!!!!!!

We dont use C&F, crauy attraction stories when going direct…..and also there is no changing frames from ‘I want you’ to ‘I dont want you’ done by C&F!!
Thats a mission for you for this weekend…

Td wrote:

.>Yes. I agree. So for me, I use:

.>-attract
.>-qualify (compliment, or "go direct")
.>-extract

.>You guys use:

.>-qualify (go in direct)
.>-attract
.>-extract

.>I’m unclear why you guys find this better. I am very interested too, because I know you guys know and have used MM in the past (not Shark, but you), so I know that what you guys have to .>say comes from an informed position, as opposed to some lameasses just talking shit but don’t have context.

.>To me, either model works because I gain attraction in 99% of sets, but the first is more consistent because of boyfriends, etc.

.>Why do you guys find the second more consistent?

I see your biggest mistake here….LOL.,.. you are trying to go direct after you already did your disinterest tactics… hmmmmm…thats not it
Again, why we found second approach more consistent?? Cause ou get attraction from them on opener, you save your time, your energy, its much more congurant to who I am…,,, and most important, I need just 1 or 2 sets per night….thats is my friend.

>Yes. Why not hold off 1 minute until she’s had a chance to hear your tonality and actually look you over, until making her decide if she likes you back? I don’t understand.
Why the fuck should you give her 1 minute to think….man, that is afc talking from you…..Man, give her chance to think, and she is gonna fuck up….I thought you know that!!Of course you know that….

Badboy,

cockblock (boyfriend, ex-boyfriend, or just friend) is a big issue for a direct approach. Shark is right, the HB’s girlfriends are usually happy if she is into you, and wouldn’t>cockblock. It is not the same case for her male friends. They would try all they could to cockblock you, since they are usually romantically interested the HB, even if the HB is not.

I agree, so what, going direct+3 AMOG tactics will handle everything…
We have amog destroyers that are so perfect, that you simply cant escape…
They will try to cockblock you…. So I mean, let they TRY..LOL that’s everything they can do…TRY
Badboy

p.s. must go… Gf is waiting outside in car…

will answer any other q’s in Monday(when I get back from EU-trip)

You can check out the whole thread here.  This is starting to get interesting.  Before, there was really only one method used for workshops, and that is the Mystery Method that Mystery started teaching.  Tyler uses his own style of MM in his workshops.  But BadBoy seems to be going in a different direction that flies in the face of that stucture.  In a way, it reminds me of when David D came out with Double Your Dating and challenged the established SS standard that was already in place.  The real question here is:  Who’s method is going to win out?  Sure they can co-exist, but people are always looking for "The Best."

We’ll have to keep our eyes on this and see how it plays out.