The Ethics of PUA — Who Owns What?
February 4, 2004 by Thundercat
Filed under Rants & Reviews
**Reposted from the first Lair, original date: 1/22/04
The recent Ross vs. Tyler battle on mASF has brought up a big controversy that has been brewing in the more elite circles lately. This is basically the issue of ACCOUNTABILITY, or who is responsible for the creation of material. This wasn’t such a big deal when everyone was just a bunch of horny losers looking to get laid who’d freely exchange ideas and theories on the topic. But once money came into the picture, it really changed the landscape of the PUA community.
In the beginning, you had Ross and SS. That was pretty much it. Then David D came along, then Mystery with his workshops, then TD, then Swinggcat, now Harmless… the list goes on. And because these are all guys who got their feet wet in the community and developed their own stuff based on the feedback and tactics of others, they are looked at very differently than an outsider who publishes a book or audio course on seduction or dating. Indeed, the paranoia has set in pretty deeply, with fingers pointing and accusations flying over TD stealing other people’s stuff and teaching it as his own, with Ross claiming Swinggcat ”stole” Push-Pull from him, with the DYD camp buckling down tighter than the Skywalker Ranch when making a Star Wars movie for fear stuff might leak out… the list goes on.
But the biggest problem comes from guys NOT making any money off this stuff. There’s been more than a few grumbles from PUAs worldwide over their material getting repackaged and sold by the commercial guys, so now they’re throwing a fit about giving credit where it’s due or just simply not sharing their material anymore, therefore stifling the flow of information.
But when it comes down to it, the whole situation is pretty laughable. People throwing fits and being paranoid about the commercial guys. It reminds me of the US/Japan automobile rivalry in the 80s. That whole ”Buy American” bullshit that circulated around the country, even though American cars were crap. The same thing is going on when Ross says TD is taking other people’s stuff and making slight modifications and observations. Who cares? In the end, the Japanese made better cars because of it. They didn’t INVENT the cars, but they IMPROVED upon them. Did America make the Japanese give them credit for inventing the car? No. No one cares. I look at it like this: If you don’t care about making money off this stuff, then why worry about people stealing your shit? Why worry about recognition? So you can be venerated as a guru by a bunch of lonely guys hoping to get laid? What kind of celebrity is that? If you do want to make money on this stuff, then make your own products so people HAVE to give you credit for using it. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
Seriously, this whole ”Give credit where credit is due, site your sources” shit is stupid. It’s like a comedian trying to copyright a joke. It’s like people that author’s steal great lines or situations from to write about in their books wanting to be paid for giving them that one little bit of inspiration when the author is the one who did all the work of writing a book. Who cares? In the long run, unless this shit is your lifeblood, like it is for Ross or TD, what do you care if people are teaching it and even making a few bucks? We’re all just guys trying to get laid, right?
In the end, I think it comes down to ego. After all, there’s nothing new under the sun. Everything this community ”comes up with” has already been thought of or existed long before we stumbled onto it. The fact is, most of the best stuff out there comes from WOMEN. If you get a great concept from a girl, are you gonna stop in the middle of a sarge and say ”I’m going intentionally undermine you, which I learned from my ex-girlfriend Mitsy.”? Of course not. That’s gay.
But none the less, the bickering and pettiness continues. I just can’t help but laugh at the comedy of it all. It reminds me so of the stupid office politics I get to partake in everyday. In the end, no one cares who came up with what…
They just want results.
Thundercat
narkologicheskaya klinika_tosi on 
narkologicheskaya klinika_coSl on 
GeorgeHed on 
narkologicheskaya klinika_syMa on 
narkologicheskaya klinika_vbsi on 
I never saw this post, but it’s an excellent one.
These guys want money, all these guys who want credit for saying something.
This community has gone to hell. Only those strong enough and smart enough to get this will get it. Me, I know I did it all by myself and thank god for the internet.
Thundercat, haha, man. You’re kinda like Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh with your distortions. Let’s see what kind of crap you’re writing about now:
“This wasn’t such a big deal when everyone was just a bunch of horny losers looking to get laid who’d freely exchange ideas and theories on the topic. But once money came into the picture, it really changed the landscape of the PUA community.”
There wasn’t a time when everyone “was just a bunch of horny losers”. There were real PUAs exchanging ideas for free because they wanted to improve their game even more, or just because the subject interest them. Then there were also “losers” who were learning from these exchanges, and also getting their own feedback. It wasn’t even money that changed the landscape, but rather the fact that people like Tyler began to outright steal ideas and pass them off as if they were original ideas they just came up with.
“In the beginning, you had Ross and SS. That was pretty much it. Then David D came along, then Mystery with his workshops, then TD, then Swinggcat, now Harmless… the list goes on. And because these are all guys who got their feet wet in the community and developed their own stuff based on the feedback and tactics of others, they are looked at very differently than an outsider who publishes a book or audio course on seduction or dating. Indeed, the paranoia has set in pretty deeply, with fingers pointing and accusations flying over TD stealing other people’s stuff and teaching it as his own, with Ross claiming Swinggcat ”stole” Push-Pull from him, with the DYD camp buckling down tighter than the Skywalker Ranch when making a Star Wars movie for fear stuff might leak out… the list goes on.”
Lol, you’re so obvious with your labels man. “Paranoia”, lol. It’s not paranoia, as what’s been going on is in plain view. It doesn’t take much to connect the dots. You take “Push-Pull” as an example. That is a good example of concepts that already existed and were just renamed by other people trying to gain fame or make a buck. Anyone remember Rio’s “101″ theory? How about Harmless’ “Future Adventures Projecting”? Does that sound like “Future Pacing” to anyone? Doesn’t the “Secret Society” sound awfully similar to the concept of the “Secret Slut”? Nothing new.
“But the biggest problem comes from guys NOT making any money off this stuff. There’s been more than a few grumbles from PUAs worldwide over their material getting repackaged and sold by the commercial guys, so now they’re throwing a fit about giving credit where it’s due or just simply not sharing their material anymore, therefore stifling the flow of information.”
Why should anyone share their original stuff for free anymore when some opportunistic wanker is going to sell it, and not even give credit? How is that any better than all the “layguide” scams that have popped up over the years? How is that any better than the “James Method”? lol
“In the end, the Japanese made better cars because of it. They didn’t INVENT the cars, but they IMPROVED upon them. Did America make the Japanese give them credit for inventing the car? No. No one cares.”
I have not seen much improvement in any of the concepts that have been stolen. In fact, it seems that material has just been repackaged under a different name, so your argument is shit.
“I look at it like this: If you don’t care about making money off this stuff, then why worry about people stealing your shit? Why worry about recognition? So you can be venerated as a guru by a bunch of lonely guys hoping to get laid? What kind of celebrity is that? If you do want to make money on this stuff, then make your own products so people HAVE to give you credit for using it. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.”
Why don’t YOU shut the fuck up, fatso. lol. Even if people don’t care about making money off this material, it doesn’t make it right for other people to steal it and make a profit from it– it is stolen.
” It’s like people that author’s steal great lines or situations from to write about in their books wanting to be paid for giving them that one little bit of inspiration when the author is the one who did all the work of writing a book.”
More bad analogies. This is not anything like what’s being done here. These people are not coming up with anything new. They’re just renaming old concepts, and passing them off as their own.
“In the end, I think it comes down to ego. After all, there’s nothing new under the sun. Everything this community ”comes up with” has already been thought of or existed long before we stumbled onto it.”
As far as I know, it had not been publicly compiled and centralized like it has been since around 1999 when ASF was created. Now for people to come along and just read the concepts, and change their names and sell e-books based on that is just lame.
“The fact is, most of the best stuff out there comes from WOMEN.”
Not entirely true. A lot of this has come from the experience and INTERACTION of various guys who were good with women. It’s not correct to paint this as if men are just copying women’s behaviour.
“But none the less, the bickering and pettiness continues. I just can’t help but laugh at the comedy of it all. It reminds me so of the stupid office politics I get to partake in everyday. In the end, no one cares who came up with what…
They just want results.”
There you go again with your labels. Who says it’s petty? Also, are you telling us there is not a single person who cares about who was the originator? That’s just bogus. What if they want to read the originals? What if they care about integrity? What if they’d rather get the material for free? After all, most of the paid material is available for free on either Google or fastseduction.com. Of course, do the people who benefit from this business want the newbies to know?
“After all, most of the paid material is available for free on either Google or fastseduction.com”
. . . or EDonkey, lol. download it from http://www.edonkey2000.com
reccomended searches:
David Deangelo
DYD
Thundercat
Dynamic Sex
- by Choumoux -
The concept of copyright or authorship tends to be annihilated in the internet free exchange culture.
In the specific case of our “seduction sub-culture”, people seem to be oblivious of the genius and hardwork of the pioneers (such as Ross Jeffries who put Speed Seduction together) as well as the independant and innovative contribution of a whole “next generation” of PUAs (among whom: Mystery, Tyler Durden or more “modest” guys like 2-6 himself).
Due respect for these guys!
The recognition of their legitimate creations, giving fair credit is not only a question of $ or ego, it’s also a way to make sure that the material keeps evolving in the right direction, because the inventor is motivated by the rewards
($, ego boost or simply intellectual acknowledging)
Gurus stealing ideas from each other is one thing.
Guys getting access to original copyrighted material for free is yet another thing.
I’m not judging anyone, and I must say I don’t quite follow Thundercat in his general description… just like “Observer” but I agree with Thundercat when he writes:
“…just simply not sharing their material anymore, therefore stifling the flow of information.”
In the end, new posts (on fastseduction.com, or on this very blog) will be less interesting, rich, innovative, mind challenging, fun… if the contributors, the “originators” are not respected.
It’s like protecting the environment, you do it for the environment’s sake. You ALSO do it for your own sake: survival.
My twofold conclusion:
В¤ 1/ The fact that NEW contributions may not be very useful anymore should motivate us to dig even more in ARCHIVED stuff (cf the wealth of info in fastseduction.com) and comment/experiment overlooked stuff.
В¤ 2/ The community is reaching a certain point of maturity. The content, the seduction science material has made huge progress in the past 4 years. I personally believe that this recent progress is the fruit of the interaction between different Gurus. Their competition is useful to the whole community TO THE EXTENT THAT GURUS STOP STEALING AND RENAMING EXISTING, “OLDER” CONCEPTS FOR WHATEVER REASON. It does not make any improvement. it only creates little bands and an annoying POLLUTION of our minds.
Now, don’t get me wrong.
I do think that using new labels, new concepts and new wording is necessary and useful, as long as it aims at making NEW CONTENT more easily understandable.
What’s not useful is “repackaging” existing material.
Another idea I got, was that if the general philosophy of our community gets down, interested and selfish… Only the wolves and the newbies will stay.
So eventually, we’ll keep the constant flow of newbies asking kind of stupid questions, and the only answers will come from $ based material contributions.
The guys who are the nerve of war, the experienced PUAs, the field experimentators will keep their discoveries to themselves.
I’m not complaining about good ol’ times, brothers. I just wanted to give you my gut feeling about the evolution of the community.
And since I was originally refering to copyrights, I just wanted to add that those who toil to invent stuff deserve a little support.
Just make sure you support THOSE WHO REALLY MAKE GOOD STUFF.
Oki doki… Let’s get back to GIRLS NOW!
522532 777052Thank you for having the time to discuss this subject. I truly appreciate it. I?ll stick a link of this entry in my web site. 542306
4906 934517?Having read this I thought it was really informative. I appreciate you taking the time and effort to put this article together. I once once again locate myself spending strategy to a lot time both reading and commenting. But so what, it was nonetheless worth it!? 846403
457251 501389bless you with regard to the particular blog post ive actually been seeking with regard to this kind of advice on the net for sum time these days hence with thanks 362391
975473 417105Thanks for another informative site. Where else may just I am getting that kind of info written in such a perfect means? 860048
681028 296334Thank you for sharing excellent informations. Your web site is very cool. 82043
I’ll immediately grasp your rss feed as I can not in finding
your email subscription link or newsletter service.
Do you’ve any? Please allow me understand so that I may subscribe.
Thanks.
My brother suggested I might like this website. He was totally
right. This post truly made my day. You can not imagine just how much time
I had spent for this information! Thanks!
Hello, i read your blog occasionally and i own a similar one and i was just wondering if you get a lot of spam comments?
If so how do you protect against it, any plugin or anything you can advise?
I get so much lately it’s driving me insane so any support is very
much appreciated.
Hi! I know this is kind of off topic but I was wondering which blog platform are you
using for this website? I’m getting fed up of WordPress because I’ve had issues with hackers and I’m looking at alternatives for another platform.
I would be great if you could point me in the direction of
a good platform.
709008 929522Thanks for the weblog loaded with so a lot of information. Stopping by your weblog helped me to get what I was looking for. 707590
Appreciating the hard work you put into your site
and in depth information you offer. It’s awesome to come across a blog every once in a while
that isn’t the same outdated rehashed information. Excellent read!
I’ve saved your site and I’m including your
RSS feeds to my Google account.
whoah this weblog is magnificent i like studying your posts.
Stay up the good work! You know, a lot of persons are searching round for this info, you can help them
greatly.
I like the helpful information you provide in your articles.
I will bookmark your weblog and check again here frequently.
I’m quite sure I’ll learn lots of new stuff
right here! Best of luck for the next!
That is really attention-grabbing, You’re an overly skilled blogger.
I’ve joined your rss feed and stay up for searching for
more of your excellent post. Also, I have shared your site in my social networks
Why viewers still use to read news papers when in this technological globe
all is existing on web?
Hello, i read your blog from time to time and i own a similar
one and i was just curious if you get a lot of spam responses?
If so how do you prevent it, any plugin or anything you can suggest?
I get so much lately it’s driving me crazy so any assistance is very much appreciated.
Having read this I believed it was rather enlightening.
I appreciate you finding the time and energy to put this short article together.
I once again find myself personally spending way too much time both reading and commenting.
But so what, it was still worth it!
Fantastic post but I was wanting to know if you
could write a litte more on this subject? I’d be very grateful if you could elaborate
a little bit further. Cheers!
constantly i used to read smaller articles
or reviews that also clear their motive, and that is also happening with this article
which I am reading now.
Hi friends, its great piece of writing on the topic of cultureand fully defined, keep it up all
the time.
Hello it’s me, I am also visiting this website regularly,
this website is in fact fastidious and the users are truly sharing pleasant thoughts.
Magnificent goods from you, man. I’ve keep in mind your stuff prior
to and you’re simply extremely magnificent. I really like
what you have acquired here, certainly like what you are saying and the way in which in which
you assert it. You’re making it enjoyable and you still care for to keep it sensible.
I cant wait to learn far more from you. This is really a wonderful site.
hello!,I like your writing so so much! share we keep in touch more about your article on AOL?
I need an expert on this space to resolve my problem.
Maybe that’s you! Taking a look ahead to look you.
I’m really loving the theme/design of your blog.
Do you ever run into any web browser compatibility problems?
A few of my blog readers have complained about my blog not operating correctly in Explorer but looks great in Chrome.
Do you have any suggestions to help fix this issue?
I like what you guys tend to be up too. This sort of clever work
and exposure! Keep up the good works guys I’ve included
you guys to blogroll.
Why users still make use of to read news papers when in this technological
world all is accessible on web?
I’m very happy to uncover this site. I need to to thank you for your
time due to this fantastic read!! I definitely enjoyed every bit of it and i also
have you book-marked to check out new stuff in your web site.
I’m not sure where you are getting your information, but good topic.
I needs to spend some time learning much more or understanding
more. Thanks for wonderful info I was looking for this info for my mission.
My brother recommended I might like this website. He was once entirely
right. This post truly made my day. You can not believe
simply how so much time I had spent for this info!
Thanks!
Hello colleagues, good article and good urging commented at
this place, I am truly enjoying by these.
obviously like your website however you have to check the spelling on quite a few of your posts.
Several of them are rife with spelling problems and I in finding it very bothersome to inform
the truth then again I will surely come again again.
Hi, i read your blog occasionally and i own a similar one and i was just wondering if you get a lot
of spam remarks? If so how do you prevent it, any plugin or anything you can suggest?
I get so much lately it’s driving me crazy so any
support is very much appreciated.
You’re so cool! I don’t believe I’ve truly read
through something like that before. So wonderful to discover somebody
with some unique thoughts on this issue.
Seriously.. many thanks for starting this up.
This site is one thing that’s needed on the internet, someone with some originality!
Very good article. I absolutely appreciate this site. Stick with it!
My partner and I stumbled over here different web address and thought I may as well
check things out. I like what I see so i am just following you.
Look forward to looking at your web page repeatedly.
I used to be suggested this blog by means of my cousin. I’m not certain whether this
post is written by way of him as nobody else realize such detailed about my difficulty.
You are incredible! Thanks!
It is perfect time to make some plans for the future and it’s time to be happy.
I’ve read this post and if I could I want to suggest you some interesting things
or suggestions. Perhaps you can write next articles referring to this article.
I wish to read more things about it!
Thank you for the good writeup. It in fact used to be a leisure
account it. Look complex to far added agreeable from you!
However, how can we keep in touch?
Pretty! This was a really wonderful post. Many thanks for supplying this information.
Wow, incredible blog layout! How long have you been blogging
for? you made blogging look easy. The overall look of your web
site is fantastic, let alone the content!
It’s really a great and useful piece of info. I’m satisfied that you just shared this useful info with us.
Please stay us up to date like this. Thanks for sharing.
This text is invaluable. Where can I find out more?
Hello, its good article on the topic of media print, we
all be familiar with media is a great source of information.
Awesome article.
I just like the helpful info you supply to your articles. I will
bookmark your weblog and check again here frequently.
I am quite certain I’ll be informed many new stuff right
right here! Best of luck for the following!
Very nice post. I just stumbled upon your blog
and wished to say that I have really enjoyed browsing your blog posts.
In any case I’ll be subscribing to your rss feed and
I hope you write again very soon!