If cephalexin sale a person does experience unwanted side effects from Replens products, advair sale they should stop using the product and seek medical advice. buy cheap diflucan online This may be their identity, an estimate of when the purchase discount accutane sale death occurred, or the cause and manner of death. Research canadian viagra has shown that microaggressions, such as racial gaslighting, remain a cheap griseofulvin in canada common theme in many settings. However, the injection location depends purchase soma online on whether you're currently taking buprenorphine.‡ If you aren't taking order discount prednisolone buprenorphine before starting Brixadi, your doctor may inject Brixadi only serevent sale in your abdomen, buttock, or thigh area. The quality of generic cialis the research on these oils varies significantly, so it is unclear.

Subscribe to Thundercat’s Seduction LairNews FeedSubscribe to Thundercat’s Seduction LairComments

Browse > Home / Articles / Pick Up 101 All The Rage…

Pick Up 101 All The Rage…

June 5, 2006 by  
Filed under Articles

602 Comments

There’s a pretty big write-up on the Pick-Up 101 guys in the latest San Francisco Magazine.  The reporter really seemed to enjoy the workshop.

its funny, because Pick-Up 101 doesn’t really get as much press as a company like Mystery Method does, but I have yet to hear a single bad thing about their workshops.  In fact, many people who take them seem to have very positive experiences close to what the reporter in the article shares (unlike some workshops which shall remain nameless, you know, the ones that start with an R and end with a D).

Those San Fran boys really seem to be kicking some ass up there.  Check it out for yourself…


What does it take to get a date in this town?
San Francisco singles complain that the city is a dating wasteland, but Lance Mason is challenging us to an old-fashioned game of pickup. Doesn’t he see that men here are too busy being laid back and women too smart to be played?
By Jaimal Yogis

It’s an average afternoon at the Z. Cioccolato candy shop in North Beach. The young employees are bored stiff from hours of arranging taffy and playing with toy cows that defecate Dr. Pepper–flavored jellybeans. That is, until Jesse Hull walks in.

Jesse is a 6-foot-2-inch 33-year-old with a goatee and dark, curly hair that he pins back with, not one, but two pairs of sunglasses. He’s flaunting blue and gray snakeskin shoes, Diesel jeans, and a see-through button-down with fishlike creatures embroidered on it. It’s a style pickup artists like Jesse call peacocking, a way to set yourself apart from the masses.

Jesse is one of the many acolytes of Lance Mason, the number-one pickup artist in the Bay Area. As founder of PickUp 101, a two-year-old company that teaches men how to flirt, date, and generally pick up women, transforming average guys into flawless ladies’ men, Mason is the leader of San Francisco’s new posse of PUAs. I’m hanging out with Jesse after my first day at one of Mason’s workshops, which I am studiously observing.

If you haven’t heard of PUAs, you will. You may have already slept with one. They’re men who spend incredible amounts of time zealously analyzing what to wear, say, and do to attract the opposite sex. Yes, there have always been ladies’ men, but the new cultlike community of pickup artists is more than that. Using psychological games and other tactics, based partly on primate behavioral patterns and partly on Tom Cruise and James Dean moves, they’re developing a pseudoscience that is sweeping the nation. Many PUAs post their results and theories in chat rooms like MysteryMethod.com, teach workshops like Mason’s, and brag about their exploits and abilities to pick up high-profile women like Britney Spears and Paris Hilton.

Last year, Neil Strauss released The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists. The best-selling book, with its embossed cover resembling a bible, became an instant cult classic. “The PUA thing has grown exponentially since the book,” says Strauss, who is heralded as the number-one PUA in the country, having seduced innumerable women before meeting his current girlfriend, the blonde guitarist for Courtney Love. “In the past, I believed there were guys who had it and guys who didn’t,” says Strauss. “But once you find out that it can be learned, everything changes.”

As sleazy as the PUA trend may sound, San Francisco certainly needs something to pull itself out of its dating doldrums. The city has long been a notoriously difficult place to meet people. According to a poll conducted by San Francisco magazine in 2003, over half of singles say it’s harder to hook up here than anywhere else. In a city of cliques, we fall into ruts and forget it’s possible to fall in love with someone with different politics, career goals, or tattoos. Men let their deeply rooted PC fear of objectifying women prevent them from approaching them. Online dating seemed like a solution, but it often dissolves into the tedious task of r�sum� swapping, rarely providing the chemistry-induced adrenaline rush that good old-fashioned flirting does.

Still, many women are understandably turned off by the whole idea of PUAs. “Lines are disingenuous,” says Lisa, a 26-year-old graduate student I met in a café in Oakland. “I don’t use them, and I don’t want guys to use them.” Moreover, Bay Area women accuse the men here of flighty relationship hopping, and PickUp 101 may exacerbate the problem. Practice makes perfect, and some women could end up as lab rats for a zealous PUA climbing the chick ladder, hoping each conquest will be better than the last.

But Mason offers more than “a line,” in part because he knows the women here are different. “They’re smart, independent, and they have their lives together,” he says, “and they expect the same from men.” With a reputation in the PUA world for sincerity, his style is more Bay Area–friendly than most. While he teaches routines for beginners, he encourages men to abandon those routines once they feel comfortable enough to rely on their own instincts.

But even if Mason’s weird science does work, what guy is going to humble himself to take a class on meeting women? When I first heard about Mason’s workshops, I imagined a room of clueless Silicon Valley techies and Marina Triangle slicksters bragging about how fast they can get women into bed. But I discovered that these guys, like most of us, are simply looking for validation from attractive people—they’re just being more proactive about getting it.

Z. Cioccolato is supposed to be my first chance to observe a PUA in action, but suddenly Jesse is pushing me to participate. I’m terrified and uncomfortable. Even if I do get lucky, it feels a bit wrong to hit on strangers for sport. But the first thing PUAs learn is that women want to be picked up. As Will Smith says in Hitch: “No woman wakes up saying, ‘God, I hope I don’t get swept off my feet today.’” Besides, Jesse claims to have once been shy himself, unable to meet women who weren’t friends of friends. But now he’s acting like he owns the place.

Jesse locks in on his target, a darkly tanned clerk who’s arranging stuffed animals. I follow, my lower back in a knot, a response Mason says happens when we try to be “cooler than we are.” This is why, I’m now realizing, PUAs-in-training need routines.

“I’m looking for a gift for my 8-year-old niece,” Jesse says, using step one from one of the pickup routines he learned from Mason. “Any recommendations?” The girl points to some T-shirts, “Paris Hilton really likes these.”

Jesse now has to get her laughing: “Are you kidding? I don’t want my niece dressing like Paris Hilton!” The comment is also a subtle “neg,” a PUA term for a line that playfully cuts a woman down but doesn’t actually hurt her feelings. Negs make the suitor seem less needy, and differentiates him from every other guy fawning over her. The girl laughs on cue, and Jesse slaps her a high five, establishing “kino,” PUA-speak for touch. Jesse squeezes her hand—a test—and she squeezes back, signaling that he should move on to building rapport.

Suddenly, the young woman working the fudge counter slingshots a stuffed monkey at Jesse’s head—she seems to want to flirt, too. He catches it like Willie Mays, in a move that screams alpha confidence.

Impressed, I try my luck with an overly made-up 20-something woman who just walked in with her mother. “This stuff is great, but it’s hard to get out of the sheets,” the mother whispers, pointing to some body chocolate. Attempting to create banter, I weigh in: “Totally, it’s so sticky.” The daughter chuckles and touches my shoulder—kino—an invitation to flirt more. But I clam up, acting like what PUAs call an AFC: average frustrated chump. Jesse notices and swings in with backup. “Uh-oh, here come the party girls,” he calls out to the women as they turn toward him. Somehow, it works. They giggle and start chatting with him. The employees laugh. Anyone walking into the shop would immediately notice that Jesse is controlling the room. In fact, after a grandmother toddles in, it takes just a few flirty lines before she proposes to him. “Oh my god,” says the fudge clerk, beaming. “Who is this guy?” Jesse leans over to me and says: “Imagine. Life could be like this all the time.”

I first arrive at the PickUp 101 “mansion” on a Friday morning. It’s really just an apartment on Powell Street, but PUAs like to call their homes mansions: if you aspire to be Hugh Hefner, you have to psych yourself up. Inside, it’s a bit of a disco frat pad: a velvet love seat sits invitingly in the corner near a tropical aquarium and a wooden wine rack. A disco ball hangs above black leather couches, which frame a gas fireplace with flames leaping up from behind crackled glass.

Eleven men, who have traveled from as far away as New York and as nearby as the Marina, sit patiently, hoping that this $1,700, three-day workshop will help them reach their full player potential. Most of them are software engineers, but there’s also a lawyer, an actor, a professional gambler, and a firefighter. They run the gamut from attractive and stylish to dorky and clueless. Since this is an advanced class, the students have all been to at least one other pickup class before, so they know the jargon. As “Rico Suave” and “Sex Machine” blare in the background, I hear guys say things like, “I opened this three-set but was forgetting to kino. Luckily, Bob was winging for me, and he distracted her friends so I could isolate and run the cube.” It’s the kind of language you’d expect at a Dungeons & Dragons conference, not in a rehash of last night’s exploits.

Mason runs different types of trainings, covering everything from how to dress to managing multiple relationships, but this weekend is on Day Game. The more common Night, or Bar, Game involves being entertaining and overtly sexual, but Day Game is more subtle and thus more difficult. The key is establishing an emotional connection without seeming creepy. “Nothing kills attraction faster than being creepy,” says Mason.

Mason, 33, has big, sensitive blue eyes that have made hundreds, if not thousands, of women swoon. His smile says all-American farm boy, but his dress—faded jeans with a massive belt buckle and a button-down with an embroidered ram on the sleeve—reads like an Esquire take on California frat. He’s charismatic and charming; his posture exudes confidence.

But that wasn’t always so. As a UC Davis engineering student, Mason was a total AFC. He had had two long-term relationships with girlfriends who chose him more than he chose them. He was dissatisfied, but afraid to break up.

At the time that his brother was getting a divorce, his second girlfriend was pressuring him into marriage. That’s when things started to click. “I realized deciding who to spend my life and raise a family with is the most important decision of my life,” Mason says over lunch at the Steps of Rome Caffe, a restaurant known for its flirty waiters. “I needed to make it the focus of my life.”

Like a mad scientist, Mason threw himself into learning everything he could about women. He read books, studied films, and approached women constantly, logging what worked and what didn’t. Before long, he says, about half the women he approached were accepting his advances, but he didn’t want a relationship yet. He spent seven years learning about himself and what he wanted in a woman. He established some guidelines. No going out on three dates in a row—that’s how you fall in love. “I recommend everyone date multiple people at once before settling down,” says Mason. “That way, you see your partners for who they really are, rather than projecting onto them.”

Then in 2002, he discovered a community of guys who were studying the same thing. While it had not yet gone mainstream with the release of The Game, the PUA community was holding workshops and posting blogs. Mason signed up for a class with Mystery, the most hyped PUA at the time. Strauss, who was working with Mystery then, says Mason popped out as a star. Mason quickly gained a reputation as a skilled ladies’ man who had a mastery of the pickup techniques but also maintained his respect for women. Men started coming to him for advice on everything from maintaining a marriage to initiating threesomes. After a while he didn’t have time to respond to all the e-mails and phone calls, so he quit his computer job and started PickUp 101. Now in its second year, his business is quickly expanding, with nearly 10,000 people receiving his regular e-mails, and 30 workshops a year held here and in New York. Every workshop is booked solid.

It’s easy to see why PickUp 101 is attracting so many men. Mason’s motto is “Ladies’ men aren’t born; they’re made.” He helps guys looking for more action or even a wife, but also men who are depressed or too terrified to talk to women. “Half of it’s confidence,” Mason says. “If you’re not good with women, then early on you probably experienced failure, and each failure reinforced that you were not good with women. I teach men how to be cooler than they think they are.”

Mason sells himself as proof that it’s possible. “I’ll walk into a bar and establish rapport with a woman,” he says in his opening speech of the workshop, “and I don’t care if Brad Pitt walks in and makes out with her. When she goes to bed that night, she’s going to be thinking about that moment with me. That’s how powerful this stuff is.” What man wouldn’t be intrigued?

For our first day, Mason has created communication exercises for the students; they rotate among stations and act out hypothetical situations, overseen by Mason and his assistants, many of whom were once students themselves. Since it’s only men, they all take turns in the female roles, creating moments most women would pay to see. “So how did that feel when I touched your elbow?” asks Eric, a New Yorker with a Sting haircut, after running a pretend pickup on George, an actor. “Well, I liked the way it felt,” George says earnestly, “but you were a little too close to me, which felt invasive.”

At one station, men rehearse “deep rapport” stories—tales about their past that show their sensitive side. Mason says they’re one of the most powerful ways to quickly build a connection. “I don’t even use these stories with women anymore,” he says. “I don’t want them to get too attached.”

The deep-rapport stories flow for over an hour, creating a full-fledged therapy session. Alex, a former opera singer, tears up as he recounts singing Beethoven in Spain. Jesse weeps while describing a relative’s death. When I ask Jesse if it’s disingenuous to be rehearsing a supposedly sincere moment, he takes my question seriously. “We all have stories we tell over and over because they explain what we’re about deep down,” Jesse says. “Just because we tell them a lot, or even rehearse them, doesn’t make them less sincere.”

But it’s more than learning what to say. “You can have the worst line ever,” Mason explains, “but if you create a powerful impression with your body language, you can make any line work.” Throughout the day, he spends hours correcting the way the students walk, stand, speak, and breathe. “It’s not that hard to be the coolest guy in the room when you know this stuff,” says Mason. The tips are obvious—shoulders back, smile when entering a room, make eye contact—but it’s amazing how difficult it is for the students to break their simple habits of slouching and frowning.

Saturday: time to put the skills to the test. After a couple more hours of rehearsal and a brief round of chanting “Let’s go meet some women” along to the Rocky theme song, the class is sent out to Union Square, the San Francisco Centre mall, and the Marina. I hit Union Square with Dominic, a 33-year-old professional gambler from Cleveland. Before Dominic discovered PickUp 101 a few months ago, he rarely left the house. He’s a big guy—240 pounds—with acting skills that are worse than Keanu Reeves’s on a bad day. But he already looks less robotic than yesterday, and more important, he’s willing to try. Half of pickup is approaching people. Dominic sees two tall, sleekly dressed women buying coffee, and he pounces, using the three-step opening combo he’s been practicing all morning.

“Excuse me,” he asks, “do you have the time?”

“Uh, sure,” one responds disinterestedly. “It’s 1:30.”

“Thanks,” Dominic says. “I should hire you as my personal assistant. You could, like, help me plan my day. Wait a minute, can you type?”

The woman says nothing. Her friend cuts in. “I think you can do that yourself.” And they walk away.

Ouch. The lines came off too stiff, which, according to Mason, equals creepy. I run up for moral support, expecting Dominic to be sulking. But he’s smiling. “At least I tried,” he says. “This is actually kind of fun.” And therein lies one of the biggest secrets of pickup: realizing that rejection isn’t that bad.

Wandering Union Square, I see more of Mason’s students scouting for live test material. I follow Gordon, a 39-year-old programmer from the South Bay. He’s 5 feet 8 inches with a pudgy, round belly, but he’s wearing a pair of Stacy Adams alligator-skin shoes, which he says bring him luck. He’s approaching a woman in a puffy gold jacket, who is standing by the heart sculpture across from the Westin St. Francis. With her athletic body wrapped in tight designer jeans, she’s way out of his league. “Don’t even try,” I want to shout after Gordon as he strides ahead. But it’s too late.

“Hey, do you know where an ATM is?” he asks.

“I don’t know. I think over there,” the woman responds, pointing vaguely toward Market Street.

“You don’t know, do you? Damn, I was totally going to hire you as my tour guide,” he jokingly replies.

The woman laughs.

“So you’re not from around here are you?” he asks, touching her shoulder.

“No, I’m from Vienna, but I just moved here three months ago,” she says with a smile.

Gordon takes the bait. “You know what I love about this city….”

Oh my god, I think. It’s working. Short, pudgy Gordon is getting positive feedback from the sexiest woman in sight. He’s standing up straight and leaning back slightly so as not to convey neediness, and looking pretty slick in an innocent kind of way. After talking to her for a solid hour, he leaves with a phone number and a date for Monday night. We high-five, and I see how this can become an addiction. Pickup is the perfect male bonding exercise: half the rush is showing off.

After four hours out in the field, the PUAs retreat to the mansion. The place is abuzz with stories of phone number exchanges and comical rejections. “I just never thought any women would want to talk to a guy with my body type,” says Alex, a PickUp 101 convert who subsequently quit his high-paying tech job to work for Mason full time. Mike, a fit, attractive Marina guy in square, wire-rimmed glasses who had been fumbling all his lines during the morning practice sessions, seems especially happy. He approached a woman and, deciding to just toss his lines, told her how beautiful she was. She gave him her e-mail address. “She just opened up,” Mike says in disbelief. “It was amazing.”

Not everyone had success—i.e., digits—but everyone had a good time. Part of Mason’s strategy is to get his students to be more social in general, so the guys talked to all kinds of strangers, not just beautiful women. “It’s amazing how much we feel like we’re in these little boxes, separated from everyone,” says Daniel, one of Mason’s first students, “but we’re just not.”

The next day, Mason brings in women to offer feedback. One of them is Yuko Yamazaki, Mason’s girlfriend, whom he met at a 24 Hour Fitness seven months ago. A no-nonsense, 26-year-old software engineer who struts around in high-heeled boots and a miniskirt, she doesn’t seem the type to fall for canned lines. I can’t resist asking what she thought of Mason’s initial pickup. She says he asked how her iPod worked while she was lifting weights—not exactly what one expects from one of the best pickup artists in the country. But his body language must have been good. “After he got my phone number, I went and called my friends,” Yamazaki tells me, blushing. “I told them, ‘I just met the smoothest guy ever.’”

She’s a big fan of PickUp 101 and helps out at many of the events. “Some of my friends think it’s weird,” she says. “But when they meet Lance, they see that he’s helping men treat women better.”

The other female assistants, who found the company through a job posting on Craigslist, are fans as well. “Guys need it,” says Luanne Hernandez, a bubbly 22-year-old who has worked at two other PickUp 101 workshops. “Women get good advice from Cosmo and their friends, but guys don’t have anything.”

Hearing from these two makes the whole thing seem less scandalous, and the more I ask women what they think, the better I feel about it all. “I think it’s necessary and called for,” says Natalie Mock, a 28-year-old from Berkeley who says guys try to pick up on her all the time at her restaurant job. “Most guys just go off their instincts, which is generally a bad idea. If these classes are done in a way that’s thoughtful to the woman, then I support it.”

Even skeptics are getting converted. “Dolly,” author of the popular sex blog The Truth about Cocks and Dolls, was put off by PUAs at first. But after she met more, including two from San Francisco, she wrote a letter to the Village Voice defending them, in response to the paper’s negative article on the subject in March. “PUAs try to create a fun, positive, and exciting experience for the woman,” Dolly wrote. “The credo many follow is ‘Leave her better than you found her.’ What’s so bad about that? That they want to get laid, too? Guess what? Guys have always wanted sex and will continue to want sex. You can’t fault them for finally discovering methods that are successful.”

To further inspire us for day three, Mason shows a clip of a true natural: playboy Howard Hughes, as played by Leonardo DiCaprio in The Aviator. In the scene, he picks up a cigarette girl, using many of the techniques Mason teaches, creating a near-orgasmic sexual tension in under two minutes. “Hughes is better than me,” Mason admits. “Hollywood understands attraction. You guys can learn from this.”

Watching DiCaprio, I’m intrigued by the power of these techniques and eager to cash in on the action. I hit the women’s shoe section at Macy’s. After making several methodical laps, I force myself to approach a woman in light brown, knee-high leather boots. She’s the exact type I never approach cold: stylish, confident, gorgeous. I want to try the “movie-moment method” on her, a technique in which the suitor says something fearless like, “There’s just something about you. I had to meet you.” But I wimp out.

“Those shoes really bring out your skin color,” I say, smiling and standing tall. “You think they have them in baby blue for me?”

“Really?” she says, and I remember that I’m in San Francisco. What was I thinking?

“No, I just came over here to flirt with you,” I tell her, using a line I saw Jesse try.

“Oh, OK,” she says, laughing, but perhaps slightly intimidated.

At this point I’m supposed to transition into building rapport, but this woman’s beauty is making me forget the techniques. Luckily, she initiates more banter.

“Look at my crazy teal socks,” she says.

I remember to toss out a “warm read,” an intuitive comment based on observation. “Oh, I see. Those must be, like, your inner playfulness hiding behind your cool exterior.” Warm reads are what PUAs call chick crack, and indeed, she giggles.

“Yeah, I guess that’s true.”

She likes me. She really, really likes me. But just when it’s getting good, her family arrives. “Well, nice meeting you. I’m shopping with my family today. Have a good day.” We wave and smile. She’s gone.

My confidence boosted, I spend the day approaching women everywhere—Macy’s, H&M, Borders. I’m not going for phone numbers yet, just having basic conversations: baby steps. A tall, stunning brunette exiting Macy’s seems genuinely touched when I run across the street to tell her she’s beautiful, but she says she has a serious boyfriend. A pale, leggy woman wandering Union Square entertains an awkward 10-minute conversation, but won’t offer me any IOIs—indicators of interest—so I abandon ship. But no matter. I’m having an epiphany: I can talk to anyone.

But then, eerily, I run into two guys from Real Social Dynamics, another local pickup group that hosts trainings every weekend. I watch as the short, unshaven guy with an annoying accent and his friend sporting black nail polish and lots of jewelry—classic peacocking—approach two Scandinavian-looking girls who have already been hit on by PickUp 101 guys. I’m with Daniel, one of Mason’s assistants, and he explains how their techniques differ, as if they’re from a rival kung fu school. “We don’t try to entertain the girl as much. They’re acting like it’s a club in the middle of Union Square.”

It turns out that Mystery Method, one of the most well-known PUA groups, is also running a workshop here this weekend. How many Howard Hughes aspirants can Union Square hold at once?

A few minutes later, the Scandinavian girls see me scribbling in a notebook and run up to find out what the hell is going on. “Excuse me,” one says, tapping my shoulder. “Guys keep approaching us saying weird things, and I just saw one of them hiding a video camera.” It was inevitable: they’ve spotted Derek, the PickUp 101 intern, trying to film a live pickup to be analyzed later for training purposes. I’m not sure if I should blow the guys’ cover, but I had run Mason’s techniques on the girls myself earlier that day, and my guilt gets the better of me. I admit what’s going on, expecting to get slapped, but instead they’re into it. “That’s so cool,” they say. “Teach us how to pick up on guys.” Apparently, they don’t read Cosmo in Sweden.

I chastise myself briefly for getting involved in this cult, but only until I spot a petite blonde in a head scarf. She has huge blue eyes and she’s handing out fliers on the corner of Stockton and Post; it’s a perfect opportunity to talk. I beeline toward her, tossing aside my qualms, but run head-on into another moral quandary. She’s a Hare Krishna, and her fliers explain the group’s tenets; soon I’m debating human potential and the cosmos with her. She tries to make me a “servant of Krishna,” but her body language is terrible. Besides, getting converted to one cult is enough for a weekend.

I remember a cute girl I saw yesterday working at the Borders caf� and go find her. I had complimented her on her tattoo, but then chickened out and left without making conversation. She’s not stereotypically beautiful, but there is something irresistible about her short, curly hair, square glasses, and nose piercing.

This has to be executed perfectly, I tell myself as I walk toward the caf� like a cowboy strolling into the O.K. Corral, not showing an ounce of indecision.

“I saw you yesterday,” I say in an unusually low voice. “And I had to come back and talk to you.”

She smiles, and before she even says a word, I know that I’ve succeeded. Soon, we’re exchanging contact info, and Jesse, who just happens to be in Borders coaching another student, watches the whole thing.

“That was awesome,” he says afterward with a brotherly high five.

Every successful pickup builds on itself. I feel so on my game that when I walk downstairs to the magazine section and see the woman I met earlier at Macy’s, my lines come naturally.

“Hey, are you stalking me?” I joke.

“I think you’re stalking me,” she says, jabbing me.

And we chat. When she asks me what I do, I have a rehearsed answer from one of Mason’s identity exercises. The key is to set yourself apart. “I’m really lucky right now because I get to surf all the time,” I say. “Ever since I was a little kid, I’ve dreamed of being a surfer.”

By saying this, instead of just telling her I’m a freelance writer who has written about surfing, I’m surprising her—and showing my sensitive side, appearing vulnerable. Correspondingly, she opens up and tells me about her childhood in the Bay Area, Guam, and Hawaii. The surfing line was a good call. When the conversation ends, she offers me her e-mail address. “So if you’re ever in San Antonio, let me know,” she says, grinning.

“OK. Great!” I say, dazed. “Wait—San Antonio?” As a typical Bay Area commitmentphobe, my first reaction is relief: the pressure is off. But then I find myself religiously checking my e-mail, hoping for a reply from her—or the Borders barista. No dice.

Turns out flirty banter is one thing, but closing the deal is another. Mason reminds us that even with a killer pickup, you need the personality to back it up. But I refuse to believe I don’t have what it takes. Still, instead of replies from my crushes, my in-box is filled with e-mails from Mason, reminding me that another $1,700 workshop could get me closer to the perfect pickup. Hmmm. For now, I think I’ll stick to my instincts—Mason’s mansion is always there if I need it.

Tags:

Get Your Free Guide Here!

Comments

602 Responses to “Pick Up 101 All The Rage…”
  1. Ray Gordon says:
    June 5, 2006 at 12:56 pm

    So let’s see:

    1. The gurus live in a mansion funded by the students.

    2. They PAY women to work for them and help provide the workshop experience to men (which means the women now have an interest in this industry).

    3. Yet another writeup, yet another mass of PUAs, etc. Unlimited supply of HBs, right? Of course!

    4. The guys run the gamut in occupations, but each seems to have a very well-paying job (hint: guys with money *always* can get laid if they want).

    5. Does Yuko consider judging women on looks (7 or less need not be loved), and MLTR are “treating women better?”

  2. noname says:
    June 5, 2006 at 3:44 pm

    Ok Ray, I appreciate your pervasive sense of cynicism, however misdirected it can be, but here’s the skinny. I was a participant in that workshop, and in response to your points, I’ll say this in response to your post:

    1) correct, but that’s where the business takes place–it needs to be big. And it’s not really a mansion.

    2) these women are paid to react and respond in the way they usually would. they gave invaluable feedback and offered a great opportunity to practice. nothing like training on someone who makes you nervous the way only a real HB can. to say they have an interest in the industry is silly–I spoke to the women, and most of them just volunteered because they thought it was interesting–the PU 101 staff definitely picked a wide assortment of high quality women for this and the women were very good at helping us.

    3) the write up is by a real reporter. google him and see his other work. I don’t even know if you have a real point here–everything that the reporter said was totally true. not sure why you’d be skeptical–none of the descriptions were that extreme. and there are plenty of failures described in the piece, too.

    4) well duh, if you’re going to pay for a $1700, you probably aren’t impoverished. and I guarantee you that guys with money CANNOT always get laid if they want. trust me, many of these guys needed the training–there’s no way in hell that they’d be able to do well just by flashing money. Nerds with money don’t do well with women–I’ve seen them fail time and time again. Money definitely helps, and maybe if you are a multimillionaire then it is automatic. But as far as I know, none of these guys were (well, maybe just one of them, but even he never talked about his job during pickups)

    5)oh relax, we judge everything in life based on appearances, why should a person’s appearance be excluded–would you prefer adjectives instead of numbers? And it’s not like the process of rating a person’s looks means that you’ll never appreciate their finer qualities.

    In any case, I’m sure you’ll accuse me of being affiliated with PU 101 or something. To people who’re interested, I can tell you that they offer really good seminars. Not all of their instructors are good, but they all have good attitudes and are cool guys. I wouldn’t say that most of them are PUA’s. They have a couple of duds. Other than that, probably a little less than half of them are PUA’s in training, another 40% or so are nearly there, a couple more are on the cusp of greatness. And the best guys they have are really exceptional.

  3. Truffaut says:
    June 5, 2006 at 3:47 pm

    Ray Gordon wrote:

    >>>4. The guys run the gamut in occupations

    I don’t think any of them are key board jockeys like you Roy.

  4. Truffaut says:
    June 5, 2006 at 3:54 pm

    noname worte:

    >>Not all of their instructors are good, but they all have good attitudes and are cool guys. I wouldn’t say that most of them are PUA’s. They have a couple of duds. Other than that, probably a little less than half of them are PUA’s in training, another 40% or so are nearly there, a couple more are on the cusp of greatness. And the best guys they have are really exceptional.

    Can you let us know which instructors you thought were good PUAs/Teachers?

  5. Ray Gordon says:
    June 5, 2006 at 4:51 pm

    “Ok Ray, I appreciate your pervasive sense of cynicism, however misdirected it can be, but here’s the skinny. I was a participant in that workshop, and in response to your points, I’ll say this in response to your post:”

    So you spent $1,700, which went to your instructors and their female “assistants.” Now we have women being PAID to promote this industry (something I predicted five years ago).

    If you have $1,700 to spend on a workshop (plus costs), you’re already in a financial position where you’d have to be an idiot not to get the women you want.

    “1) [Mansion] correct, but that’s where the business takes place–it needs to be big. And it’s not really a mansion.”

    Yet it’s a place that will attract women by itself. Not GAME.

    GAME is when you don’t even have your own place, don’t have a steady job, are overweight, older, with an STD, and still date 9s. Not the life YOU might want to live, but definitely the way to figure out game (necessity).

    “2) these women are paid to react and respond in the way they usually would.”

    They are paid to create happy customers. By the way, isn’t women saying one thing and doing another what drove you to the workshop in the first place?

    “they gave invaluable feedback and offered a great opportunity to practice. nothing like training on someone who makes you nervous the way only a real HB can.”

    You can get that for $1 a visit at a strip club. Your “HB” is being paid by your guru to promote your guru’s methods. She also is NOT in a natural pickup environment, and of course there’s no telling if she knows everything else you might need to know. On the upside, it can be useful roleplay, but it’s still expensive.

    “to say they have an interest in the industry is silly–I spoke to the women, and most of them just volunteered because they thought it was interesting–the PU 101 staff definitely picked a wide assortment of high quality women for this and the women were very good at helping us.”

    So they responded to ads on Craigslist and VOLUNTEERED to do this? Did you read the article? Hot women don’t do shit like that if they aren’t getting something in return for it.

    “3) the write up is by a real reporter. google him and see his other work. I don’t even know if you have a real point here–everything that the reporter said was totally true.”

    I never said it wasn’t.

    ” not sure why you’d be skeptical–none of the descriptions were that extreme. and there are plenty of failures described in the piece, too.”

    Your “guru” said he began studying this stuff in 2002, FOUR YEARS after I released my first book on this. This is according to the article.

    “4) well duh, if you’re going to pay for a $1700, you probably aren’t impoverished. and I guarantee you that guys with money CANNOT always get laid if they want.”

    Oh, yes they CAN. If they know how. Teaching a guy with money how to get laid is like teaching an eight-foot tall guy how to play basketball.

    “trust me, many of these guys needed the training–there’s no way in hell that they’d be able to do well just by flashing money. Nerds with money don’t do well with women–I’ve seen them fail time and time again.”

    Eight-foot men who don’t understand basketball won’t play well either, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t easy as fuck to teach.

    “Money definitely helps,”

    Just like your $1,700 will be very appreciated by those men and their female assistants.

    “and maybe if you are a multimillionaire then it is automatic. But as far as I know, none of these guys were (well, maybe just one of them, but even he never talked about his job during pickups)”

    You underestimate just how wealthy Americans are relative to the rest of the world. Your definition of “not that wealthy” would likely reveal that you don’t understand the average man’s existence.

    If you earn $50k a year or more, you have more money than you will ever need to game ANY woman. I can do it on less.

    “5)oh relax, we judge everything in life based on appearances, why should a person’s appearance be excluded–would you prefer adjectives instead of numbers? And it’s not like the process of rating a person’s looks means that you’ll never appreciate their finer qualities.”

    So what happens when she gets older? Should she just kill herself? Chicks don’t stay hot forever or even that long. If she’s looking for that SOULMATE, then she has to accept being dumped by him when she ages or when someone hotter comes along.

    As for MLTR, how is that “treating women better?”

    I could get into the other 300 things the gurus teach and see how she likes them line by line, but these are the main ones.

    “In any case, I’m sure you’ll accuse me of being affiliated with PU 101 or something.”

    Not at all.

    “To people who’re interested, I can tell you that they offer really good seminars. Not all of their instructors are good, but they all have good attitudes and are cool guys.”

    Many “cool guys” don’t stay very cool when they aren’t getting their way. It’s easy to be “cool” when the money is flowing into their pockets.

    Then of course there is always the possibility that they or you is not seeing everything outside of the box that they live in.

    You say you’re nervous around hot women? Usually that’s because you wouldn’t know what to do with one if she let you dominate her sexually for an evening. In other words, you don’t know how to checkmate so you don’t know where your Point B is.

    “I wouldn’t say that most of them are PUA’s. They have a couple of duds. Other than that, probably a little less than half of them are PUA’s in training, another 40% or so are nearly there, a couple more are on the cusp of greatness. And the best guys they have are really exceptional.”

    They have lots of money, and they can run the “guru gimmick” that I wrote about years ago as well, and which is the reason I started this myself. When chicks asked me what I did for work, I used to say “I teach men how to get laid by beautiful women and teach women how to avoid the men I teach.”

    I put that in my AOL profile even, and tons of hot women would approach me out of nowhere. A percentage of those lead to #closes, meets, and f-closes. Offline, I might run “guru game” with a wing and one of us plays instructor and the other student, with the idea of letting women overhear the “lessons.”

    See, women have only a minute to talk but forever to argue.

    Like it or not, you are funding the lifestyle of your gurus. It is YOUR MONEY they are using to attract women, and the status they get from TEACHING you that makes them alpha.

  6. Masters says:
    June 5, 2006 at 5:20 pm

    Pickup 101 is actually an awesome company. Lance is a great guy and the stuff he showed the students about body language, kino, and banter was all quality.

    I don’t see how you can use “Mansion payed for by students” as a negative. They run a business that teaches skills to men. Those men pay them. They’re supposed to what.. NOT use that money to support their living? That doesn’t make sense at all.

    Also, if they have women friends or paid girls to help in SEMINAR portions of the course to further aid in feedback.. what’s wrong with that? It’s only alright to use men? These points make no sense at all.

    Ray you seriously lose credit when you mention invalid negative comments obviously ill designed to hurt your so called competition.

    Ray is absolutely correct here though guys. Your money IS BEING USED. OH MY GOD! Everyone ISNT actually donating the cost of bootcamps to the red cross.

    Guess what.. I’m going to expose a super secret scam right now.. so don’t tell anyone else…

    Every other business in america spends the money you give them on other products. Those bastards!!!!!!!!!

    I for one will enver buy anything ever again thanks to the new knowledge I’ve learned here.

  7. gliblets says:
    June 5, 2006 at 6:12 pm

    Yes, Ray, everyone sucks but you. And you’re getting alot of free publicity with your contrarian ‘tude, eh squeaky wheel?

    PU101 is cool. I signed up for the free mailings and with it got a link to Lance doing an approach at what looks like a fair or something. I learned more about what this kind of pickup is supposed to look like and feel like than several ebooks I’ve read.

  8. noname says:
    June 5, 2006 at 8:40 pm

    >Yet it’s a place that will attract women by itself. Not GAME.
    ———
    false–many of these instructors are attracting women without mentioning or bringing them to the place, and not all of the instructors even live there or even in SF.

    >GAME is when you don’t even have your own place, don’t have a steady job, are overweight, older, with an STD, and still date 9s. Not the life YOU might want to live, but definitely the way to figure out game (necessity).
    —————————–
    you have this binary way of thinking. yeah, a guy who could do that would have game, but it’s as if you’re unable or unwilling to distinguish between varying degrees of skills if a person has something going for him. I’m not trying to be snarky, but I think you would really be helped by thinking more flexibly.

    >They are paid to create happy customers. By the way, isn’t women saying one thing and doing another what drove you to the workshop in the first place?

    The answer to your question is ‘no’. And the women were definitely not saying things just to make us happy. A couple of them were pretty harsh, but constructively harsh, so it was helpful.

    >You can get that for $1 a visit at a strip club. Your “HB” is being paid by your guru to promote your guru’s methods. She also is NOT in a natural pickup environment, and of course there’s no telling if she knows everything else you might need to know. On the upside, it can be useful roleplay, but it’s still expensive.
    ——————
    it’s true, no roleplay is perfect. but it’s still a good way to practice, and will the aid of excellent instructors providing feedback, it’s really useful.

    >So they responded to ads on Craigslist and VOLUNTEERED to do this? Did you read the article? Hot women don’t do shit like that if they aren’t getting something in return for it.
    ——————————-
    man, you’re such a stickler–if you loosened up, you’d do better with women. yes, I know they got paid. it was obvious. there’s a difference between perceptiveness and irrational cynicism, you know.

    >Your “guru” said he began studying this stuff in 2002, FOUR YEARS after I released my first book on this. This is according to the article.
    —————————-
    I believe in the market–you’d be doing a lot better if your stuff was good.

    >Oh, yes they CAN. If they know how. Teaching a guy with money how to get laid is like teaching an eight-foot tall guy how to play basketball.
    ————————-
    It’s really interesting the way you think. It’s really unrealistic, but interesting nonetheless. I feel like many of the statements you make come from bad feelings about what you don’t have and a feeling that you’re entitled to it. True?

    >Eight-foot men who don’t understand basketball won’t play well either, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t easy as fuck to teach.
    ——————
    George Mureusan was awesome, wasn’t he?

    >You underestimate just how wealthy Americans are relative to the rest of the world. Your definition of “not that wealthy” would likely reveal that you don’t understand the average man’s existence.

    If you earn $50k a year or more, you have more money than you will ever need to game ANY woman. I can do it on less.
    ————————
    if you earn $60k in SF, lets see you try to win over a woman by showing off your money.

    >So what happens when she gets older? Should she just kill herself? Chicks don’t stay hot forever or even that long. If she’s looking for that SOULMATE, then she has to accept being dumped by him when she ages or when someone hotter comes along.

    As for MLTR, how is that “treating women better?”
    ——————-
    Yes, she should kill herself. sheesh…here you are, thinking in black and white terms again. Not sure why i’m bothering.

    >Many “cool guys” don’t stay very cool when they aren’t getting their way. It’s easy to be “cool” when the money is flowing into their pockets.
    ————————
    many of their instructors aren’t getting paid or getting paid only a nominal amount. I think you’re obsessed with money.

    >You say you’re nervous around hot women? Usually that’s because you wouldn’t know what to do with one if she let you dominate her sexually for an evening. In other words, you don’t know how to checkmate so you don’t know where your Point B is.
    ————————
    although I admit I have quite a bit to learn. But i doubt that I could learn it from you. in order to establish any form of credibility, you have to prove that you understand basic human psychology, and I really feel like your thinking is too categorical.

    Alright, that’s enough of that. As for who’s really good there, Lance (of course), daniel and Dennis are all excellent. a few other guys are on their way

  9. Truffaut says:
    June 5, 2006 at 8:45 pm

    Ray Gordon,
    I heard that you still live with your mother (you’re over 40 yrs old right?). Did you learn your pick up techniques from her?

  10. Ray Gordon says:
    June 5, 2006 at 9:16 pm

    “Pickup 101 is actually an awesome company. Lance is a great guy and the stuff he showed the students about body language, kino, and banter was all quality.”

    Lance is getting paid and getting laid (in part because he gets paid and chicks LOVE those “survival and replication resources”).

    “I don’t see how you can use “Mansion payed for by students” as a negative.”

    It clouds the “game” issue. Mystery fucks supermodels, so he almost climbs out of his league economically (he has fame and connections so he still benefits but yes he scores).

    Who did Lance score? A 26 year-old software engineer who likely works with a bunch of geeks and dorks and probably likes the novelty of all this. Further, is he off the market now or still a hardcore PUA? She sounds like a oneitis, which is good for him as a boyfriend since if she isn’t, she’s going to feel cheap.

    You can’t tell how Lance would do without the money and status (provided by YOU), because he’s not about to give that up. He’s also a bit young, so he doesn’t understand what older men go through just as much (try being older without money if you really want a handicap).

    If money isn’t the issue, why not ask him how much he makes a year and judge for yourself?

    “They run a business that teaches skills to men. Those men pay them. They’re supposed to what.. NOT use that money to support their living? That doesn’t make sense at all.”

    So if a guy gets rich by selling how-to-get-rich books, does that give him more credibility all of a sudden? The problem with every guru who makes it big is that the money and status he gets for doing so become his game, or the “guru gimmick.”

    You’re like the HB who assumes that the guy she’s fucking has to be better in bed than the guy whose body language doesn’t hit her love map (maybe he’s Woody Allen like or whatever). You want to justify your investment in the method and the products so you become like law enforcement building a case once it finds a suspect rather than keeping an open mind and continuing the search.

    Finally, if you are so clueless about women, how could you possibly know who could teach you the best? I’m a USCF-rated chess expert (peak rating); if you are a beginner, are you going to know if I can teach you better than another guy with the same rating? Of course not, or you wouldn’t need the lessons in the first place. So you’re left with judging sales pitches and the surface.

    “Also, if they have women friends or paid girls to help in SEMINAR portions of the course to further aid in feedback.. what’s wrong with that?”

    It’s not true feedback. It’s HIRED feedback. Further, the girls now have a financial interest in the success of the guru. At the least they are built-in, HIRED pivots anytime they are seen with the guys.

    (Want to check copyrights to see when “pivot” was first introduced to this “community” and by whom? Hint: 1999, by ME. Got copyrights to prove it.

    Now, say you need a bunch of new theory, like that which I’ve been sitting on for two years. I have NO incentive to share it with you or anyone who isn’t paying me a similar rate to what you just shelled out. You literally have no idea what you’re missing, and I can assure you, the women I fuck don’t do it for money or looks.

    “It’s only alright to use men? These points make no sense at all.”

    Field demonstrations involve women, do they not? You’re just getting hired guns to soothe your shattered ego if you’re like most who attend these things. It’s like studying chess out of the opening books versus actually playing the game with a tournament on the line.

    Oh wait, I’m a REAL chessplayer (chess is THE game), not some guru who thinks it’s fashionable to use chess analogies.

    “Ray you seriously lose credit when you mention invalid negative comments obviously ill designed to hurt your so called competition.”

    This is a laugh: this entire fucking industry has tried to tar and feather me online, just about everywhere I go, like a hive. I raise some very legitimate points about money and “game” and suddenly I’m negative and bashing the competition?

    You can’t have it both ways: either this is a DISCUSSION, where I get to share my views, or it’s PROPAGANDA, where you get to tell everyone how great you think a company is without room for dissent.

    Who said I was trying to gain your credibility? I’m a CHESS author now. See, chess theory is just as expensive as seduction theory, and it’s constantly updated. Actually as big a market as this one, without all the garbage and the crap. Even better, a “pickup challenge” may be subjective, but CHECKMATE is not.

    Care to wager on the outcome of a six-game chess match between me and Mystery?

    “Ray is absolutely correct here though guys. Your money IS BEING USED. OH MY GOD! Everyone ISNT actually donating the cost of bootcamps to the red cross.”

    Rich guy gets laid: film at 11.

    “Guess what.. I’m going to expose a super secret scam right now.. so don’t tell anyone else…Every other business in america spends the money you give them on other products. Those bastards!!!!!!!!!”

    Key words: OTHER PRODUCTS. These men are gaming women with money they make teaching men to game women with OTHER METHODS.

    In 1998, as I was writing my first book, I realized that the quickest way to get rich would be to take the money I made from my first book, use that to hire some women for social proof, use the women to get more customers, the customers to get more women, and so on, and so on, and so on.

    I didn’t do it for two reasons: I am REALLY out to help men (without the high price tag, just $20 for my lifetime of writing, which without piracy would be a lot more, and of course with more publicity and/or a bigger net audience), but I also did it because I wanted to HONESTLY see how the information filtered out. I didn’t want to manufacture a “lifestyle” that would attract golddiggers or “hired guns.” Instead, I put my work out there, didn’t change myself one iota, and didn’t even kiss the public’s ass. Those who value the information buy it (or steal it if they are immoral), while those who don’t wind up buying into something else, and that’s fine if they want to do that, but don’t call it game.

    “I for one will enver buy anything ever again thanks to the new knowledge I’ve learned here.”

    Sarcasm won’t deflect the fact that your guru is using money YOU gave him (to teach you how to get women) and the status YOU gave him (by his being your teacher of how to get women), to do what? To get women.

    So while YOU are learning things like kino, body language, etc., HE is learning how to say “I teach men how to get laid. Like Hitch,” and he’s doing it in a place that is paid for with YOUR MONEY, in a city you can’t even hang out in unless you are well off or know people who are.

    That is NOT game. That is the AFC bullshit that sent men running to this community in the first place.

    He’s taking guys who already have everything they could possibly need to get laid with (money is a sure thing), and doing the equivalent of teaching basketball to a guy who is 7’6″ with perfect coordination and a 9.6 time for the 100 meters.

    Playing in the NBA at 5’6″ is a lot more difficult than to do it at 7’6.” Any idiot can teach a rich man how to get laid, and since that’s where all the money has gone, I may have to join the crowd and take on five students at $25k a year or something.

    With their incomes, not only would I be fucking famous women, but I’d be doing it on film. If I chose. I’d probably just take the hottie from the local convenience store or something, however.

    Let’s ask Lance’s girlfriend what she thinks of him after he’s moved on (if not, when’s the wedding?). Ever hear what Mystery’s exes have to say about him?

  11. Ray Gordon says:
    June 5, 2006 at 10:29 pm

    >Yet it’s a place that will >attract women by itself. Not >GAME.
    ———
    “false–many of these instructors are attracting women without mentioning or bringing them to the place, and not all of the instructors even live there or even in SF.”

    First off, women have PAYDAR, just like guys can rate a woman’s body no matter how she disguises it if he’s trained. Second, unless they do nothing but ONSs (STD test anyone), the chicks will find out soon enough. Did Lance hide all his money from his girlfriend all this time or does she have a clue what he’s doing? Oh yeah, “treating women better.”

    >GAME is when you don’t even have >your own place, don’t have a >steady job, are overweight, >older, with an STD, and still >date 9s. Not the life YOU might >want to live, but definitely the >way to figure out game (necessity).
    —————————–
    “you have this binary way of thinking. yeah, a guy who could do that would have game,”

    Thanks. I should show you the 9 stripper I plucked from her club with all of $4 in tip money. She was all of 21. The last chick I could have dated (but decided against pursuing) was 26, a 7 or 7.5, very intelligent, extremely nice, but below my standards. I don’t even count a conquest if she’s older than 21. A woman who is 26 is an EMPTY NETTER, as in “easy to score upon.”

    “but it’s as if you’re unable or unwilling to distinguish between varying degrees of skills if a person has something going for him. I’m not trying to be snarky, but I think you would really be helped by thinking more flexibly.”

    I think men who are so clueless about women that they need a workshop shouldn’t be acting like they can tell who would teach them best. What’s next: do we let medical students decide which teachers know the most about how to perform neurosurgery?

    >They are paid to create happy >customers. By the way, isn’t >women saying one thing and doing >another what drove you to the >workshop in the first place?

    “The answer to your question is ‘no’. And the women were definitely not saying things just to make us happy. A couple of them were pretty harsh, but constructively harsh, so it was helpful.”

    Like on Tool Time, when Tim Allen’s character was allowed to be a “harsh” “real man” type, with his tools and his toys, but when it came to home, kids, and sex, he was a pussy-whipped bitch.

    Better and simpler question: did you fuck any of the chicks you met at the seminar? If you have GAME….

    >You can get that for $1 a visit >at a strip club. Your “HB” is >being paid by your guru to >promote your guru’s methods. She >also is NOT in a natural pickup >environment, and of course >there’s no telling if she knows >everything else you might need >to know. On the upside, it can >be useful roleplay, but it’s >still expensive.
    ——————
    “it’s true, no roleplay is perfect. but it’s still a good way to practice, and will the aid of excellent instructors providing feedback, it’s really useful.”

    At what price? Are there less expensive alternatives, like say taking $20 to a strip club and gaming the dancers? They will give you all the feedback you could ever want, and they might even fuck you in the process.

    Know how I built my strip club game? In 1985, my close friend married a stripper he met at her club (he was rich). Six years later, a friend of mine brings two strippers home from a local club and drops one in the living room for me (I was like “Why is he ignoring her?” DUH!!!!).

    In 1999, I began visiting strip clubs periodically simply because I felt that anyone claiming to be a seduction guru should be able to pluck a stripper out of her club. I was even open-minded about using *some* money to do this, since if you can get a stripper girlfriend for $50 or even $500, well, you’re ahead of the game (I never spent that). I also was looking for models for my adult website, but I met that need by becoming an affiliate of Flynt Digital, which gives me the freedom to use all the Barely Legal stuff on my site as long as I credit them etc.

    I tried out several “attitudes” in the strip clubs, and rarely would go with much money. The only times I spent at those clubs was when I would have spent at a regular bar and on the same night, AND when I wanted to see the effects of money on “game.”

    Without fail, every dancer I plucked was one I barely tipped, if at all. In one case, another guy on ASF e-mailed me for advice on a stripper he stole out from under my nose while I was being “cool” and not calling her. Three days later she changed her number (she had BEGGED for mine but I didn’t give it to her), and three months later I found out this guy nailed her. I let him tell me the whole story, I advise him, and at the end I said “So tell me, why’d she change her number in October?” (this was 2000).

    This was my own “strip club challenge,” and it ended a few years back with me bored one Friday afternoon and #closing a dancer who was in a relationship with one of the men who worked at the club. I just didn’t want the hassle after that, though I’m open to any strip club challenge.

    >So they responded to ads on >Craigslist and VOLUNTEERED to do >this? Did you read the article? >Hot women don’t do shit like >that if they aren’t getting >something in return for it.
    ——————————-
    “man, you’re such a stickler–if you loosened up, you’d do better with women.”

    Are you one of those idiots who thinks he can tell how another guy is doing with women? Barry Bonds has four home runs or whatever this year; he couldn’t have 715 for his career? I’m almost FORTY YEARS OLD, dude. I lost my virginity before many of these “instructors” were even born.

    I’m the fucking MACK GRANDDADDY. For the 21 year-old stripper I dated, I created an online name called “DadWithBenefits” and she thought that was hysterical.

    If you can’t see the originality, humor, or effectiveness in my methods, I’m not going to kiss your ass. I put the truth out there for those who want it, and for those who want to reward me for it and give me an incentive to keep sharing it. I copyrighted everything so I could prove what I wrote and when, just in case there was any confusion.

    Why should I kiss your ass for $20 when I can write a chess book and have some guy I beat in nine moves buying it for $50 after I just proved to him I have “game?” Chess has EXPLODED on the internet and it’s becoming a major sport. Chess publishing is very lucrative, but it takes time to write a good chess book. Mine will be done in the spring of next year, if I’m lucky. Once that book is out, I may not even take sponsors from this industry and give away my material to sell chess books to the geeky audience.

    Do you have any idea how much theory a chessplayer has to master to achieve a rating of 2000? Only 5 percent of TOURNAMENT players carry that rating at any given time.

    “yes, I know they got paid.”

    What happened to the VOLUNTEERS? How much were they paid? Going rate for a pivot is $75 an hour, btw.

    “it was obvious. there’s a difference between perceptiveness and irrational cynicism, you know.”

    Women like guys with money. Guys who make money teaching game are improving their results by virtue of having money. They often talk about money as a sign of “inner game” now but how is that different from the “good provider” model that the AFC works on? Your money is still going to these women even if it’s through the gurus first. The more money the women make, of course, the less incentive they have to fuck any man, so they aren’t going to mind this at all. They can fuck the UPS driver instead now that their finances are taken care of.

    Did you fuck any of the women from this seminar?

    >Your “guru” said he began >studying this stuff in 2002, >FOUR YEARS after I released my >first book on this. This is >according to the article.
    —————————-
    “I believe in the market–you’d be doing a lot better if your stuff was good.”

    So John Gray is the Alpha among Alphas now? His stuff does the best. Most business school professors would strongly disagree with you, and instead would cite things like marketing, affiliate programs, hard-selling, and technological savvy as being as or more important than quality. McDonald’s surely doesn’t serve the best hamburgers on the planet, nor does Microsoft produce the best software, but they know how to sell to the masses.

    This site and other sites pick and choose their advertisers, which means they exclude certain products from the market rather than having a standard rate card and accepting ads across the industry. People can’t even get their message out. At best, that makes them compensated endorsers rather than a true portal, and at worst, well, I’ve laid that out in my Delaware lawsuit (I’m suing LTSC/FS101 and Ross/SS for antitrust violations; case number is D.Del 06-cv-229 for anyone who wants the source material; Parker v. Learn The Skills Corp. et al. I refer people to that case because they can see both sides as it’s told to the court, rather than have a flame war here. Whatever the court rules will become law, and life will go on. I am obviously not objective about my own case, but neither is the other side about its, which is to be expected.

    The fact remains, however, that not every guru can advertise in every place. Ever wonder why the same 10-15 guys are being talked about all the time? They are the ones who pay well to their marketers. On my site alone I have over two dozen links and I haven’t even updated it in forever, and furthermore, I offer my book free if someone buys any competing product listed on the site. I can do that because Clickbank provides the e-mail address of all referral customers, so I know who bought through my links and can give them an extra.

    My competitors could do this just as easily, but do not. They could also charge one price for everything, but they do not. Finally, you’re acting like the ballgame is over when it’s barely the third inning. Top seduction sites get 10,000-30,000 users, while top radio shows get 15 million listeners. Tom Leykis doesn’t have to pitch you expensive seminars or workshops because he’s got a guaranteed contract paid for by sponsors, which is what will happen in this industry as Playboy and Maxim and all the other magazines use this stuff to fill up an issue and make millions in ads.

    Now compare that to the $200k a year you call a jackpot. More like a JOKEpot compared to what the big boys will be making. Even Neil with his quarter-million book sales made how much? Even at 15 percent that’s maybe $600,000, and how long does that last in LA? Any wonder he put out something expensive? Neil should have gotten a radio show or a column if he wanted to avoid hard-selling like you saw here.

    You seem to think this is my only business, when my business has several divisions. I have gambling, chess, seduction, and erotic hypnosis. Hell, I even have guys paying me $15 for “expedited delivery” of a file they can get for free if they e-mail me and wait 90 days.

    >Oh, yes they CAN. If they know >how. Teaching a guy with money >how to get laid is like teaching >an eight-foot tall guy how to >play basketball.
    ————————-
    “It’s really interesting the way you think. It’s really unrealistic, but interesting nonetheless. I feel like many of the statements you make come from bad feelings about what you don’t have and a feeling that you’re entitled to it. True?”

    Actually, I would say that your statement is a projection of your own value system more than a reflection of mine.

    I grew up living the lifestyle most of you aspire to, in literally the wealthiest place on earth per capita. I think many of the people who think it’s cool to taunt about who has what didn’t have money as kids and have permanent scars. I have no such scars because I never did without growing up. You think some midwestern transplant who sets up shop in Queens is going to understand NYC game better than a native? I’ve seen guys like that in the biz too. They can be good, but they won’t know the city.

    I see other gurus talk about “Sex And The City” and how to use it to relate with women, when I sat across a classroom table from Cynthia Nixon for five straight years in grade school and she flirted with me in broad daylight when I was fifteen and barely remembered her (five years later). Hmm, who can play the SATC angle better?

    Wait! I got it! How about the ultimate chick flick, THE PERFECT STORM! Its star, Diane Lane, fucked my cousin for several years in the 1980s (we all went to school together), but my cousin wound up moving on to two Playboy Centerfolds in succession (probably with a threesome), including the current playmate of the month. He has game that would blow away even Mystery, but he doesn’t write books about it. He sure wasn’t rich or famous, just established in NYC and good enough with music to hang on the scene.

    I never did find out, however, if it was my cousin who introduced Diane to Jon BonJovi or the other way around. She “settled” for Jon after being with him.

    >Eight-foot men who don’t >understand basketball won’t play >well either, but that doesn’t >mean they aren’t easy as fuck to >teach.
    ——————
    “George Mureusan was awesome, wasn’t he?”

    That he was in the league at all almost proves my point. Go in the other direction, however, and take a guy who is 5’4″ and try to get him into the NBA versus a guy who is 6″10.

    Note also I said in my original post something about “perfect coordination.”

    And yes, SHAQ is awesome.

    >You underestimate just how >wealthy Americans are relative >to the rest of the world. Your >definition of “not that wealthy” >would likely reveal that you >don’t understand the average >man’s existence.

    >If you earn $50k a year or more, >you have more money than you >will ever need to game ANY >woman. I can do it on less.
    ————————
    “if you earn $60k in SF, lets see you try to win over a woman by showing off your money.”

    Did I say BUY the women? No, I said GAME them.

    >So what happens when she gets >older? Should she just kill >herself? Chicks don’t stay hot >forever or even that long. If >she’s looking for that SOULMATE, >then she has to accept being >dumped by him when she ages or >when someone hotter comes along.
    >As for MLTR, how is >that “treating women better?”
    ——————-
    “Yes, she should kill herself.”

    Interesting quote.

    “sheesh…here you are, thinking in black and white terms again. Not sure why i’m bothering.”

    Let’s ask her then. Women are the ones who look out for their own old age (well, some). So would he dump a hotter chick just to be loyal to her, or is he only with her because she’s so hot he wouldn’t want another and is therefore into her looks?

    I assume she’s allowed to answer these questions.

    >Many “cool guys” don’t stay very >cool when they aren’t getting >their way. It’s easy to ?>be “cool” when the money is >flowing into their pockets.
    ————————
    “many of their instructors aren’t getting paid or getting paid only a nominal amount. I think you’re obsessed with money.”

    Most beginning instructors will work to build a name for themsleves before going out on their own. The newcomers see it more as a business than guys like me, since I was doing this for free as far back as 1995 on the Prodigy and AOL boards, long before this industry took shape. Only in late 1998 did I release a book, and only then so I wouldn’t have to give the same advice over and over. Very few products at all were on the market then, and I was making more than many gurus at that time. Mystery didn’t even start doing well until at least 2001, and his first workshop didn’t even turn a huge profit (lots of expenses, etc. but he quickly fixed that). According to one article, Mystery did workshops initially because he was dead broke. He had been doing this for years even before that.

    Let’s see: I charge $20.00, they charge $1,700.00, but *I* am the one obsessed with money. I would think that the guy who relies on your money to keep a house in SF is a little more obsessed with money than I am. If I were obsessed with money, I’d have tons of it. I’m a civil rights activist first and foremost, and they only get rich if they sell out . I’m also a chess writer, handicapper, and PUBLISHER. I publish about many things.

    Many gurus are set up to get large amounts of money out of guys like you now, and I’m set up to sell to the masses as the internet audience grows. Now if who makes the most money matters (amazing that the guy who says money doesn’t matter measures people as winners and losers on money, as if chicks don’t), then the here-and-now is what counts. If the long-term is what counts, well, the game is barely underway.

    You seem to think it’s a tragedy to me if YOUR favorite food is not in MY refrigerator.

    >You say you’re nervous around >hot women? Usually that’s >because you wouldn’t know what >to do with one if she let you >dominate her sexually for an >evening. In other words, you >don’t know how to checkmate so >you don’t know where your Point >B is.
    ————————
    “although I admit I have quite a bit to learn.”

    And you talk like a first-year medical student who KNOWS which doctors should be teaching his courses.

    “But i doubt that I could learn it from you.”

    I don’t recall ever asking you to, and with that attitude, you definitely couldn’t, since you don’t have an open mind. You seem to have a need to belong to a “group” of men, but how many of these men are your friends if the money stops flowing?

    “in order to establish any form of credibility, you have to prove that you understand basic human psychology,”

    A 2000-rated chessplayer has proven that objectively in a way that a PUA never could. Psychology is an integral part of chess, even if they don’t give degrees in it.

    HOWEVER, if you want to go there, Dr. Paul said that most gurus use “kitchen table wisdom” while his stuff is scientifically proven time and again. I personally use Darwin’s model. Your opinion of my work is likely to mirror your opinion of his, just like your opinion of Ross Jeffries is likely to mirror your opinion of NLP, etc.

    “and I really feel like your thinking is too categorical.”

    God only knows what he’d say to Mystery, with his A1-C3 method.

    “Alright, that’s enough of that. As for who’s really good there, Lance (of course), daniel and Dennis are all excellent. a few other guys are on their way.”

    And they’re getting paid by YOU, and getting status from YOU, both things that women will use to decide to fuck men. You are turning their “game” into a sure thing. The “guru gimmick” and all.

    Since I’m not outcome-dependent on your money, I can speak my mind forever and it won’t cost me a cent. I would, however, like to see some of this “new stuff” people keep saying we’re all going to need to keep up after the mainstream exposure (which I predicted years ago and which people said would never happen).

    Since people don’t fully understand the first round of contributions I made to a lot of the theory even you rely on if you read them on other sites, there certainly won’t be a second until that is fixed. As of now, I am “on strike” and won’t publish again until a major publisher picks me up and pays me a $100,000 advance, or until the other gurus crash and burn with their new ideas, and I have them on record as doing so before I blow their stuff out of the water.

    I haven’t even begun to address the long-term problems that come with the type of women these methods will get you, because all lays and women are created equal, right?

  12. cro says:
    June 6, 2006 at 1:18 am

    does anyone has craigs c&f routine?

  13. Iceman says:
    June 6, 2006 at 3:11 am

    I love the way that posts are surgically dissected through the method of posting a quote – rebutting it, posting another quote – rebuttal etc etc leading to posts that are several thousand words long with the only substantive matter being the last paragraph of their post! Which is then cut and pasted into a rebuttal, and then…

    http://smartmoneyguide.blogspot.com

  14. David Starsky says:
    June 6, 2006 at 3:22 am

    Guys, who do you think is reading such a loooong and uninteresting crap? It’s sunny today, while you’re figthing like afcs, I’m gonna go out with my wing and approach some chicks.

    Do you realize you are just showing the world on this blog how unattractive you are??

    It is basic psychology: a man who scores a HB every day (= a real guru) doesn’t feel the need to argue and debate about such silly issues. He just gets laid and enrich his life. So, what qualities do you think you subcommunicate here?

  15. NlpRapist says:
    June 6, 2006 at 6:22 am

    So if a guy gets rich by selling how-to-get-rich books, does that give him more credibility all of a sudden? The problem with every guru who makes it big is that the money and status he gets for doing so become his game, or the “guru gimmick.”

    BULLSHIT

    “Also, if they have women friends or paid girls to help in SEMINAR portions of the course to further aid in feedback.. what’s wrong with that?”

    It’s not true feedback. It’s HIRED feedback. Further, the girls now have a financial interest in the success of the guru. At the least they are built-in, HIRED pivots anytime they are seen with the guys.

    Maybe, maybe not. It serves a purpose to further teach an idea.

    (Want to check copyrights to see when “pivot” was first introduced to this “community” and by whom? Hint: 1999, by ME. Got copyrights to prove it.

    So what?….should we build you a fucking statue?

    Now, say you need a bunch of new theory, like that which I’ve been sitting on for two years. I have NO incentive to share it with you or anyone who isn’t paying me a similar rate to what you just shelled out. You literally have no idea what you’re missing, and I can assure you, the women I fuck don’t do it for money or looks.

    Laughing, you have been carrying the new theory torch for 5 years now…please keep it yourself, no one is interested.

    Oh wait, I’m a REAL chessplayer (chess is THE game), not some guru who thinks it’s fashionable to use chess analogies.

    Chess has nothing to do with seduction, nor does card counting or Oprah…why do they constantly hand you your hat in the chess newsgroup?

    This is a laugh: this entire fucking industry has tried to tar and feather me online, just about everywhere I go, like a hive. I raise some very legitimate points about money and “game” and suddenly I’m negative and bashing the competition?

    Ray they do it because they don’t like you, because you are an ass, not because you are any kind of threat.

    Who said I was trying to gain your credibility? I’m a CHESS author now. See, chess theory is just as expensive as seduction theory, and it’s constantly updated. Actually as big a market as this one, without all the garbage and the crap. Even better, a “pickup challenge” may be subjective, but CHECKMATE is not.

    Then do the seduction community a favor and stick with chess, because it looks like you are a failure in both.

    Care to wager on the outcome of a six-game chess match between me and Mystery?

    LMAO…I’m really good at knitting, can I challenge M to a rug contest?…you idiot.

    Key words: OTHER PRODUCTS. These men are gaming women with money they make teaching men to game women with OTHER METHODS.

    What a man earns he is free to do with as he likes, grow up.

    I didn’t do it for two reasons: I am REALLY out to help men (without the high price tag, just $20 for my lifetime of writing, which without piracy would be a lot more, and of course with more publicity and/or a bigger net audience), but I also did it because I wanted to HONESTLY see how the information filtered out. I didn’t want to manufacture a “lifestyle” that would attract golddiggers or “hired guns.” Instead, I put my work out there, didn’t change myself one iota, and didn’t even kiss the public’s ass. Those who value the information buy it (or steal it if they are immoral), while those who don’t wind up buying into something else, and that’s fine if they want to do that, but don’t call it game.

    You want to help men and suffer yourself…laughing….I bet you feed all those starving kids in third world countries too…snicker.

    Sarcasm won’t deflect the fact that your guru is using money YOU gave him (to teach you how to get women) and the status YOU gave him (by his being your teacher of how to get women), to do what? To get women.

    Yawn….yeah Ray they should just give those bootcamps for free huh.
    Sorry but their shit is worth more than 20.00…lol.

    So while YOU are learning things like kino, body language, etc., HE is learning how to say “I teach men how to get laid. Like Hitch,” and he’s doing it in a place that is paid for with YOUR MONEY, in a city you can’t even hang out in unless you are well off or know people who are.

    Sounds like you are speaking just from your personal abilities.

    Playing in the NBA at 5’6″ is a lot more difficult than to do it at 7’6.” Any idiot can teach a rich man how to get laid, and since that’s where all the money has gone, I may have to join the crowd and take on five students at $25k a year or something.

    Laughing..good luck, you can’t even give your stuff away, and you propose the above…jezzz

    With their incomes, not only would I be fucking famous women, but I’d be doing it on film. If I chose. I’d probably just take the hottie from the local convenience store or something, however.

    Ray, you can even prove you have ever even been with a girl.

    Let’s ask Lance’s girlfriend what she thinks of him after he’s moved on (if not, when’s the wedding?). Ever hear what Mystery’s exes have to say about him?

    What we NEVER here is anything about your girls, current or exes…because there are none?

  16. Iceman says:
    June 6, 2006 at 8:29 am

    937 Words NlpRapist. That’s almost a tutorial paper. Now we all just sit and wait for the 2,000 – 3,000 word ‘essay’ response. If we’re lucky we might even have someone present a 10,000 word thesis.

    http://smartmoneyguide.blogspot.com

  17. NlpRapist says:
    June 6, 2006 at 9:31 am

    937 Words NlpRapist. That’s almost a tutorial paper. Now we all just sit and wait for the 2,000 – 3,000 word ‘essay’ response. If we’re lucky we might even have someone present a 10,000 word thesis.

    Shouldn’t you be off somewhere sending emails in the hope someone might send you a buck for your wacked out business idea?..:)
    Counting words must be boring, even for you.

  18. Intime says:
    June 6, 2006 at 9:34 am

    Ray Gordon is doing a great job for the site. People will come to this site just to argue with him.

    He’s also the ultimate judge of who is the winner of the debates he gets into.

    His greatest “skill” is to grab people into trying to have logical arguments with him.

    Can see where the entertainment value lies though.

  19. Intime says:
    June 6, 2006 at 9:35 am

    BTW Lance Mason and co. does have some great tips to share.

  20. Iceman says:
    June 6, 2006 at 9:50 am

    LoL ‘cut and paste’ into MS Word. Tools –> Word Count. Magic.

    And yes. I should… *dives back into concieving new spam methods*

    http://smartmoneyguide.blogspot.com

  21. NlpRapist says:
    June 6, 2006 at 10:08 am

    Did Lance hide all his money from his girlfriend all this time or does she have a clue what he’s doing? Oh yeah, “treating women better.”

    Treating women nice is a foreign concept for you isn’t it?

    >GAME is when you don’t even have >your own place, don’t have a >steady job, are overweight, >older, with an STD, and still >date 9s. Not the life YOU might >want to live, but definitely the >way to figure out game (necessity).

    Prove it, we all know you aren’t dating nines…I heard once you tried to pay a homeless woman to talk to you, is this true?…things that BAD.

    Thanks. I should show you the 9 stripper I plucked from her club with all of $4 in tip money.

    Show us…give us a snapshot of you and her….can’t do it can you!

    I think men who are so clueless about women that they need a workshop shouldn’t be acting like they can tell who would teach them best.

    Ever took a workshop Ray?….thought not. Weren’t you once begging people to send you to a mystery workshop?

    Like on Tool Time, when Tim Allen’s character was allowed to be a “harsh” “real man” type, with his tools and his toys, but when it came to home, kids, and sex, he was a pussy-whipped bitch.

    Here we go again, Ray confusing TV with reality. Just shows the man never leaves his bedroom in his moms apartment.

    >You can get that for $1 a visit >at a strip club.

    Or your local street corner, huh Ray.

    At what price? Are there less expensive alternatives, like say taking $20 to a strip club and gaming the dancers? They will give you all the feedback you could ever want, and they might even fuck you in the process.

    Now if you take in a chess board or a bag of prawns, then its all over, isn’t it Ray.

    Know how I built my strip club game? In 1985, my close friend married a stripper he met at her club (he was rich).

    Ray thinks money is the only way to get a woman.

    Six years later, a friend of mine brings two strippers home from a local club and drops one in the living room for me (I was like “Why is he ignoring her?” DUH!!!!).

    So that how you get women, your freinds make them talk to you…interesting.

    I also was looking for models for my adult website, but I met that need by becoming an affiliate of Flynt Digital, which gives me the freedom to use all the Barely Legal stuff on my site as long as I credit them etc.

    You peddling porn now??

    I just didn’t want the hassle after that, though I’m open to any strip club challenge.

    Then why did you BACK OUT of the mystery challenge?….chicken.

    I’m almost FORTY YEARS OLD, dude. I lost my virginity before many of these “instructors” were even born.

    Yeah got an STD right off the bat, what are the odds of that….unless she was a street walker…man that has really got to screw with your head huh.

    If you can’t see the originality, humor, or effectiveness in my methods, I’m not going to kiss your ass. I put the truth out there for those who want it,

    Then can you explain why NO ONE wants YOUR truth?

    Chess has EXPLODED on the internet and it’s becoming a major sport.

    Laughing my ass off….:)…please stick to chess you champion you..snicker.

    Do you have any idea how much theory a chessplayer has to master to achieve a rating of 2000? Only 5 percent of TOURNAMENT players carry that rating at any given time.

    This is the seduction community, we don’t care about fucking geeks and chess.

    Women like guys with money. Guys who make money teaching game are improving their results by virtue of having money.

    Everyone likes money, Ray. How do you explain all the poor guys doing so well?

    Did you fuck any of the women from this seminar?

    Do you fuck every woman you pass on the street?…

    The fact remains, however, that not every guru can advertise in every place. Ever wonder why the same 10-15 guys are being talked about all the time?

    Maybe because they are the best? Hmmm

    You seem to think this is my only business, when my business has several divisions. I have gambling, chess, seduction, and erotic hypnosis.

    All this and all you make is 10k a year…welfare pays more..snicker.

    I grew up living the lifestyle most of you aspire to, in literally the wealthiest place on earth per capita.

    Finally hit home that no one is going to buy your stuff huh.

    Wait! I got it! How about the ultimate chick flick, THE PERFECT STORM!

    Get out of the house…live a little.

    If I were obsessed with money, I’d have tons of it.

    Robbing banks?

    I’m a civil rights activist first and foremost, and they only get rich if they sell out .

    We know how those suits turned out as well…DISMISSED!

    I’m also a chess writer, handicapper, and PUBLISHER. I publish about many things.

    Try publishing the IDIOTS GUIDE TO FAILURE.

    Many gurus are set up to get large amounts of money out of guys like you now, and I’m set up to sell to the masses as the internet audience grows.

    Yawn….sure….

    >You say you’re nervous around >hot women? Usually that’s >because you wouldn’t know what >to do with one if she let you >dominate her sexually for an >evening.

    I’ve heard it all now,Ray explains nervousness.

    I don’t recall ever asking you to, and with that attitude, you definitely couldn’t, since you don’t have an open mind.

    I have a VERY open mind and I never could find anything in your work.

    A 2000-rated chessplayer has proven that objectively in a way that a PUA never could. Psychology is an integral part of chess, even if they don’t give degrees in it.

    Laughing….poker maybe, but chess….lol.

    I personally use Darwin’s model.

    Darwin was a FOOL.

    Your opinion of my work is likely to mirror your opinion of his, just like your opinion of Ross Jeffries is likely to mirror your opinion of NLP, etc.

    RJ is NOT nlp.

    As of now, I am “on strike” and won’t publish again until a major publisher picks me up and pays me a $100,000 advance, or until the other gurus crash and burn with their new ideas, and I have them on record as doing so before I blow their stuff out of the water.

    Laughing my ass,,,,that is rich….took my breath away..:)

    Ray, why do you equate your failure with lack of money…is that how you sleep at night?

    Man I would get depressed if I didn’t have you to play with…you are such fun.

  22. Truffaut says:
    June 6, 2006 at 11:33 am

    Ray Gordon,
    You say that you play in chess tournaments, what is your USCF rating? There in only one “Ray Gordon” listed with a rating of 604. You have no business talking about chess if that is you.

    What are the titles of the books you have written? I looked up Ray Gordon on Amazon. There are a lot of erotic books. Is that you?

    Tell us who you really are and give us specifics. i.e. Put up or shut up.

  23. NlpRapist says:
    June 6, 2006 at 11:53 am

    Truffaut

    The Ray Gordon on amazon is an english writer, not the Ray that posts here. RAy has NO published work, just his ebooks, which ANYONE can do.
    He had a high chess rating back when he was like 20 or so, they say he can’t beat a beginner now…not sure on that one, but the chess newsgroup doesn’t care much for him, so that makes you wonder.
    If I were a “master” chess player I would be writing books, traveling and playing in tourments, so it makes you wonder again…;)
    Be nice if he left the seduction to guys that know something about it.

  24. Truffaut says:
    June 6, 2006 at 2:56 pm

    Ray Gordon Exposed:

    I have a question for you Ray, why do you keep bringing up chess on a seduction board? Most of the people here don’t know much about chess nor do they care. But, once and for all I will give them a little insight concerning your chess “strength.” Then we can all laugh if you ever bring up your chess “prowess” again.

    >>>I’m a USCF-rated chess expert (peak rating)

    This tells me that you are an “A” player now. Big deal. Any real chess player knows that an “A” player is weak.

    >>>Oh wait, I’m a REAL chessplayer

    You may play chess. So what.

    >>>I’m a CHESS author now.

    BFD. You are so weak at chess that any real chess player would laugh at the idea of an “A” player writing a chess book.

    >>>See, chess theory is just as expensive as seduction theory, and it’s constantly updated. Actually as big a market as this one, without all the garbage and the crap.

    >>>Chess publishing is very lucrative,

    This shows me that you know nothing about the chess book market. It is very small and no one is interested in buying a chess book from an “A” player when there are Grandmasters writing chess books.

    It’s similar to expecting someone to buy Ray Gordon’s seduction ebook rather than Mystery’s. i.e. People tend to buy products only from authors that have skill in the subject.

    >>>it takes time to write a good chess book. Mine will be done in the spring of next year, if I’m lucky. Once that book is out, I may not even take sponsors from this industry and give away my material to sell chess books to the geeky audience.

    LOL. You are delusional.

    >>>Do you have any idea how much theory a chessplayer has to master to achieve a rating of 2000? Only 5 percent of TOURNAMENT players carry that rating at any given time.

    Yes, I do. You are a WEAK player by definition. I have many friends that are CHESS MASTERS and they are all laughing at the idea of you writing a chess book.

    Ray, you can now stop bragging about your chess “skill.” The reality is that you are a “patzer,” which all people knowledgeable at chess know means that you are “a poor or amateurish chess player.”

    Case Closed.

  25. ForcedToRegister says:
    June 6, 2006 at 5:58 pm

    Ray:
    You’re assuming Lance only got good after he started making money, rather than in his college days approaching girls at the libary trying to figure things out. Of course he’s spending his pay from students on “the mansion”, because this company is his income. Before this company, he was using whatever job he had then to pay for it. Just like the other guys in the house are using their respective non-pickup101 incomes. People in the San Francisco Lair have known him before he became this ‘guru guy’…he was good before. That’s why everyone went to him for advice. And why would he not use his income to support his lifestyle?

    And it’s not all about being able to lay girls while living in a trailer with your mom and STDs. I’d aspire for more. It’s about growing as a person and becoming cooler. The Pickup101 guys are great models for that. It’s their company’s spin and it’s what THEIR customers want.

    What does it matter if he has a girlfriend or several or what his future plans are? He can prove that he can pull girls and have long-term relationships. Apparently his customers want similar.

    If it was all about the money, I’m sure he’d be doing thins differently in his company. Students who show up for the seminar and hang around for three days get a good sense of the company, the poeple, and their motives. Apparently, they feel good about it. It’s still a company, though.

    As far as knowing who teaches best, how do YOU know who teaches best? Other students in my workshop had taken other workshops and were able to see which ones produced better results (not just during the seminar but months later).

    Of course, the girls aren’t REAL feedback, but it’s pretty close. If you ask a random girl on the street for feedback, she might not be able to articulate it as well, as girls who know more of the theory.

    And they’re NOT pivots, so chill out about your copyrighted word. They’re just stand-ins for scenario practice, giving feedback on delivery and interactions.

    Comments range from “it was really creepy the way you ___” to “I really liked how you said/did _____. If I were in a club it would make me feel comfortable/curious/whatever”. The actual talking to girls is done in the field, often getting feedback from them, too

    It’s great you have new theories. No one’s saying Pickup101 is the only place for good advice. Give tastes of what you have to offer and guys might pay the same amount if it’s valuable and usable to them at whatever stage they’re in.

  26. ForcedToRegister says:
    June 6, 2006 at 6:18 pm

    And Now the Replies to Ridiculous Stuff

    “Did you fuck any of the women from this seminar?”

    -If I took a 3-day workshop from you or read your book, provided you had female helpers, would every student be able to screw one girl each workshop? You seem to be judging teacher’s ability by students being able to do this, so wouldn’t all your students be able to do it?

    —————————————————–

    “This is a laugh: this entire fucking industry has tried to tar and feather me online, just about everywhere I go, like a hive. I raise some very legitimate points about money and “game” and suddenly I’m negative and bashing the competition?”

    -I think this could be a great discussion, but you’re turning it into a bashing on Pickup101.

    ——————————————————–

    “Care to wager on the outcome of a six-game chess match between me and Mystery?”

    -what’s the point of that? you’re good in your field of chess? Okay, validated. Feel better?

    ——————————————————–

    “He’s taking guys who already have everything they could possibly need to get laid with (money is a sure thing), and doing the equivalent of teaching basketball to a guy who is 7’6″ with perfect coordination and a 9.6 time for the 100 meters.”

    -But he’s not teaching them how to use the money to their advantage, really. He’s teaching them to how read girls, make conversation, connect with them, not how to convey you have money. And not all the students have a lot of money.

    ——————————————————–

    Thanks. I should show you the 9 stripper I plucked from her club with all of $4 in tip money.

    -Why did you spend any money?

    ——————————————————–

    “I think men who are so clueless about women that they need a workshop shouldn’t be acting like they can tell who would teach them best. What’s next: do we let medical students decide which teachers know the most about how to perform neurosurgery?”

    -Who should be making the decison then? You? The best we have right now is students who have taken several workshops telling us which gave them better results. It’s not like we can setup studies on this assigning random students to random instructors.

    ——————————————————–

    “I also was looking for models for my adult website…affiliate of Flynt Digital…use all the Barely Legal stuff on my site…..guy on ASF e-mailed me for advice on a stripper he stole out from under my nose …she changed her number (she had BEGGED for mine …this guy nailed her. I let him tell me the whole story, I advise him…(this was 2000)..Do you have any idea how much theory a chessplayer has to master…Only 5 percent …carry that rating …”

    -WTF/OMG What’s wrong with you? This is a comment thread, not a place to publish your autobiography. Maybe it’s the vibe you send out with these posts make people not care about giving you credit and going to other instructors.

    ——————————————————–

    “Hell, I even have guys paying me $15 for “expedited delivery” of a file they can get for free if they e-mail me and wait 90 days.”

    -Why is that impressive? If someone’s interested in a product and need the help now, why would that many wait 90 days instead of just paying $15 if they thought it was worth it? Big deal.

    ——————————————————–

    “So would he dump a hotter chick just to be loyal to her, or is he only with her because she’s so hot he wouldn’t want another and is therefore into her looks?”

    -What makes you think she’s the only chick he’s with?

    ——————————————————–

    “Let’s see: I charge $20.00, they charge $1,700.00, but *I* am the one obsessed with money.”

    -And I’ll get the same/better results reading this book them (or another company) actually with me pushing me to actually talk to women and help me with what i’m doing wrong (be it frame, bl, etc)

    ——————————————————–

    “You seem to have a need to belong to a “group” of men, but how many of these men are your friends if the money stops flowing?”

    -The group is your fellow classmatse and since there’s never an exchange of money among them, probably for as long as you want to keep gaming and reaching for similar goals, since that’s what brought them together in the first place

    ——————————————————–

    “Since people don’t fully understand the first round of contributions I made to a lot of the theory even you rely on if you read them on other sites, there certainly won’t be a second until that is fixed. As of now, I am “on strike” and won’t publish again until a major publisher picks me up and pays me a $100,000 advance, or until the other gurus crash and burn with their new ideas, and I have them on record as doing so before I blow their stuff out of the water.”

    -That won’t happen unless you have some sort of product flowing and bringing in new customers or something. There will always be men who want to learn this stuff, so there will always be other gurus still going.

    ——————————————————–

    “I haven’t even begun to address the long-term problems that come with the type of women these methods will get you, because all lays and women are created equal, right?”

    -Maybe you could…I don’t think the stuff from pickup101 is too much different than the way normal cool guys pickup women, at least not as different a lot of other methods I’ve heard.

  27. Ray Gordon says:
    June 6, 2006 at 6:32 pm

    “Ray:
    You’re assuming Lance only got good after he started making money, rather than in his college days approaching girls at the libary trying to figure things out.”

    LTRs as an adult are not the same thing as library sluts at college. Guys in college also have POTENTIAL, which is a full substitute for money.

    He’s using money and status derived from his students, which is not the game he’s teaching, unless he is teaching them to do what he DOES. He claims to be in an LTR, which is more or less what an AFC does (go for the LTR).

    ” Of course he’s spending his pay from students on “the mansion”, because this company is his income. Before this company, he was using whatever job he had then to pay for it. Just like the other guys in the house are using their respective non-pickup101 incomes.”

    There’s still the status factor and the “game” novelty wave of this year, and NOW he is using student money to fund his lifestyle. No accident that the “good girlfriend” shows up.

    Does he really think his chick is different from the women we teach men about?

    “People in the San Francisco Lair have known him before he became this ‘guru guy’…he was good before. That’s why everyone went to him for advice. And why would he not use his income to support his lifestyle?”

    It jumps the shark. He’s no longer a regular guy but has status, a following, and likely more money (why quit the other job?), or a better lifestyle if not more money. Lifestyle seduction, however, is AFC seduction, not pickup.

    “And it’s not all about being able to lay girls while living in a trailer with your mom and STDs.”

    It’s also not abuout using money to get an LTR like an AFC would, either.

    “I’d aspire for more. It’s about growing as a person and becoming cooler.”

    Cool when getting paid and getting one’s way proves nothing.

    “The Pickup101 guys are great models for that. It’s their company’s spin and it’s what THEIR customers want.”

    Their customers are providing money and status, which attracts women. In fact, since women are at the seminars, the customers are giving their money indirectly to these WOMEN. That’s what AFC chumps do.

    Think Mystery or another guru could get Yuko to cheat on Lance? Maybe Yuko should check out what most “community theory” says about “provider chumps” in LTRs and their views on “borefriends” and “borefriend destroyers.”

    Who is a player? The porter at a hotel in Italy who fucked 8,000 women, a lot of it documented. Some American guy earning bank and pledging AFC style devotion to a girlfriend hardly compares.

    “What does it matter if he has a girlfriend or several or what his future plans are?”

    He claims to be a guru. Is Yuko his PROPERTY now? Is she allowed to speak, or just unwilling to answer many pressing questions about her statements in that interview. In fact, she helps enrich her man by supporting him with her words, and the money is going to one-half of a couple in which she is a part.

    Who pays for this? The students. Literally.

    “He can prove that he can pull girls and have long-term relationships. Apparently his customers want similar.”

    Guy with money gets girlfriend: film at 11. That’s an AFC chumnp with oneitis, not a PUA.

    “If it was all about the money, I’m sure he’d be doing thins differently in his company. Students who show up for the seminar and hang around for three days get a good sense of the company, the poeple, and their motives. Apparently, they feel good about it. It’s still a company, though.”

    $1,700 for a weekend is about the money.

    Lance gets his money from men he teaches how to get women.

    Women like guys with money.

    “As far as knowing who teaches best, how do YOU know who teaches best? Other students in my workshop had taken other workshops and were able to see which ones produced better results (not just during the seminar but months later).”

    People have broken some serious laws in competing against me. In many places my message is banned, and people don’t even get the full picture. When all else fails, censorship is the last resort.

    “Of course, the girls aren’t REAL feedback, but it’s pretty close. If you ask a random girl on the street for feedback, she might not be able to articulate it as well, as girls who know more of the theory.”

    More like something REAL is at stake, so you get a REAL response, instead of some hired gun paid to be nice to some loser AFC who is paying $1,700 to try to be a man.

    “And they’re NOT pivots, so chill out about your copyrighted word.”

    Never said anything about that, but it’s interesting you reacted that way.

    “They’re just stand-ins for scenario practice, giving feedback on delivery and interactions. ”

    Which means it’s roleplay, not real. The women are PAID, not friends or targets.

    “Comments range from “it was really creepy the way you ___” to “I really liked how you said/did _____. If I were in a club it would make me feel comfortable/curious/whatever”.”

    What women SAY and what women DO are not the same thing.

    “The actual talking to girls is done in the field, often getting feedback from them, too”

    Do the students use the line “I’m like Hitch” to pick up? Lance probably did, or used something similar. Even if he didn’t, his game is based on his being a guru, and it’s funded with student money.

    “It’s great you have new theories. No one’s saying Pickup101 is the only place for good advice. Give tastes of what you have to offer and guys might pay the same amount if it’s valuable and usable to them at whatever stage they’re in.”

    Four of my books are free on the web already. That’s all anyone gets out of me for free.

    How cute that you try to take the high road while pretending all the anonymous crap directed at me doesn’t exist.

    I’d love to see Yuko try to defend Lance and the stuff he teaches to me. Chances are it would go from “let’s have a discussion” to “none of your fucking business” pretty damn soon.

    Example: how much does Lance earn a year? If it doesn’t matter, why hide it?

    I’ll say it again: he uses student money and status from teaching them to fund the lifestyle that women find appealing enough to fuck him.

    Maybe he can play women, but that’s just pure AFC.

    Any guy who can blow $1,700 on a workshop plus travel and time costs already has the only thing he’ll ever need to get laid.

  28. Ray Gordon says:
    June 6, 2006 at 6:57 pm

    >>>>”He’s taking guys who already have everything they could possibly need to get laid with (money is a sure thing), and doing the equivalent of teaching basketball to a guy who is 7’6″ with perfect coordination and a 9.6 time for the 100 meters.”>>>

    “-But he’s not teaching them how to use the money to their advantage, really.”

    No, he’s just pricing the stuff in such a way that only guys with a lot of money to blow can afford it. “We let in any poor person who can pay the $1,700 cover charge.”

    >>>He’s teaching them to how read girls, make conversation, connect with them, not how to convey you have money. And not all the students have a lot of money.>>>>

    If they have $1,700 plus costs to blow on a seminar/workshop, they have money, at least most of the time. Btw, tons of guys teach how to read women for far less.

    >Thanks. I should show you the 9 >stripper I plucked from her club >with all of $4 in tip money.

    “-Why did you spend any money?”

    At my age, $4 is cheap, or at any age. Minimal tipping in a strip club is polite, as it keeps the lights on in the club. Dancers don’t make paychecks off that, however, and it doesn’t add up to much, enough to justify the show (which has some tangible value).

    >”I think men who are so clueless >about women that they need a >workshop shouldn’t be acting >like they can tell who would >teach them best. What’s next: do >we let medical students decide >which teachers know the most >about how to perform >neurosurgery?”

    :-Who should be making the decison then? You? The best we have right now is students who have taken several workshops telling us which gave them better results. It’s not like we can setup studies on this assigning random students to random instructors.”

    Did they go in intending to sample all workshops, or did one after another keep failing them?

    >”I also was looking for models
    >for my adult website…affiliate
    >of Flynt Digital…use all the
    >Barely Legal stuff on my
    >site…..guy on ASF e-mailed me
    >for advice on a stripper he
    >stole out from under my
    >nose …she changed her number
    >(she had BEGGED for mine …this
    >guy nailed her. I let him tell
    >me the whole story, I advise
    >him…(this was 2000)..Do you
    >have any idea how much theory a
    >chessplayer has to master…Only
    >5 percent …carry that
    >rating …”

    “-WTF/OMG What’s wrong with you?”

    What was wrong with you that you got so desperate about women you paid a fortune to learn what I knew since I was 12?

    >”This is a comment thread, not a
    >place to publish your
    >autobiography. Maybe it’s the
    >vibe you send out with these
    >posts make people not care about
    >giving you credit and going to
    >other instructors.

    Or maybe I just point out that Lance is using YOUR money and status from teaching YOU to bolster the lifestyle that women find so appealing.

    >”So would he dump a hotter chick
    >just to be loyal to her, or is
    >he only with her because she’s
    >so hot he wouldn’t want another
    >and is therefore into her looks?”

    “-What makes you think she’s the only chick he’s with?”

    Did the interview call her his girlfriend? If she is his girlfriend, he’s an AFC with oneitis; if he’s fucking other chicks, she’s a free prostitute, and I gather she wouldn’t be signing her name to that in print, so I assume they she considers them exclusive.

    >”Let’s see: I charge $20.00,
    >they charge $1,700.00, but *I*
    >am the one obsessed with money.”

    “-And I’ll get the same/better results reading this book them (or another company) actually with me pushing me to actually talk to women and help me with what i’m doing wrong (be it frame, bl, etc)”

    What makes you think approaching women is even necessary?

    Same/better results for only 100 times the price? Deal!

    >”Since people don’t fully
    >understand the first round of
    >contributions I made to a lot of
    >the theory even you rely on if
    >you read them on other sites,
    >there certainly won’t be a
    >second until that is fixed. As
    >of now, I am “on strike” and
    >won’t publish again until a
    >major publisher picks me up and
    >pays me a $100,000 advance, or
    >until the other gurus crash and
    >burn with their new ideas, and I
    >have them on record as doing so
    >before I blow their stuff out of
    >the water.”

    “-That won’t happen unless you have some sort of product flowing and bringing in new customers or something. There will always be men who want to learn this stuff, so there will always be other gurus still going.”

    Armchair marketing 101. Where do you think this theory would be without the pivot the first time around? I had to pull the plug because I was giving the other gurus the ability to give valuable advice. Now that new advice is needed, I learned my lesson.

    The wrong woman can cost a wealthy man a lot more than $100,000, and if he winds up fucking the chick behind the CVS counter when he could have had a porn star, well he doesn’t know what he’s missing.

    >”I haven’t even begun to address
    >the long-term problems that come
    >with the type of women these
    >methods will get you, because
    >all lays and women are created
    >equal, right?”

    “-Maybe you could…I don’t think the stuff from pickup101 is too much different than the way normal cool guys pickup women,”

    Define “cool guy.” I bet our definitions don’t match, just like I bet many women that you guys respect are ones I would call “slut trash” or “whore.” See, the “hidden whore” is a woman who is toxic to a man, but long after the initial lay report. I teach men how to avoid disasters like that.

    “at least not as different a lot of other methods I’ve heard.”

    Censorship rules most of the boards in this industry, so you’re never getting the whole story.

    I don’t ask for validation, recognition, or anything other than a level playing field, which this industry currently does not have. We have six to a dozen “brand names” being elevated to a status that boxes others out of the market, and which puts the burden on a very small group of men to lead the theory into the future (just like only bands with recording contracts and distribution wind up on the radio).

    As for the allegedly great stuff being taught, the public doesn’t hear much of it, but instead gets sales pitches for it, which is not really the purpose of blogs or message boards, but instead belongs in something like Google sponsored links or clearly marked advertising.

    I also don’t have students do my talking for me, and speak for myself. In fact, when my readers try to speak for me, I call them off and warn them not to do that, which is why you don’t see it from my end.

    This is not to say that Lance doesn’t have game. I’m sure he does, but it’s very telling if he winds up in an LTR once he “makes it” as a guru.

    I have a similar beef with chess coaches and chess authors who think they don’t have to train once they’ve achieved a high rating. Many simply stop playing, stop studying, and teach beginners, and they make good money for it, but the problem is that they are no longer really in the trenches.

    Even if Yuko is the Nonvirgin Mary (I want a cut if anyone uses that commercially!), the fact that Lance has sure things from his money and status will give him a confidence and patience that women pick up on. Just like a white in the 1800s who didn’t own slaves in the south still benefitted from slavery, merely because he always had the option to use them if things got bad enough (say he was wealthy and principled and times got hard).

    You talk about comparing products, but for the last few years, such a comparison with my stuff hasn’t even been possible, which is why I am putting that on hold and just building a chess product line instead. It doesn’t mean I can’t teach game, only that there is no reward for doing so.

    Now if I have chess books to sell, I will probably have an incentive to literally give away all the new theory in seduction, because doing so will result in sales of a large number of chess books, since it’s pretty much the same audience, and it’s an “extra” for people who want to reward the seduction info but wouldn’t donate straight out.

    With all due respect, if you don’t run an internet company (and I don’t count a seduction company on the internet as an internet company in the same way), you wouldn’t understand what I’m doing or what my business plan is as a whole, and I really think it’s better that way.

    This industry is just one part of a very large puzzle. The audience is still small, and things are changing very rapidly. The advertising platforms that dominate today will not dominate tomorrow, and there will be more customers for everyone to go around, which will result in the prices crashing to the ground.

  29. ForcedToRegister says:
    June 6, 2006 at 9:28 pm

    LTR Stuff

    Again, you’re assuming he didn’t continue learning and adapting, just because I said he started figuring things out in college. Pickup101 is a pretty recent thing.

    Only a couple years old, I think. He’s been living in the mansion since before that. He’s been really good since before THAT.

    ONCE he got to the point where he’s seen as a “guru” and his company became his life, it’s only natural to mention it with women. He can do the pickup without it.

    ————————————————————-

    He claims to be in an LTR, which is more or less what an AFC does go for the LTR .

    No, AFC thing to do is to stay in a relationship you’re not completely happy with because you have a scarcity mentality. Having stable MLTR with hot women is not AFC. It’s a skill.

    ————————————————————

    Status factor and his g/f stuff

    Once again, he doesn’t need “pickup guru” factor to pickup women. He was doing great BEFORE he became one.

    Now that he is one, he’s not going to give up the lifestyle he was going for since before “The Game”, especially when customers he attracts want that style or something similar.

    I’m not sure what he thinks about her on an intimate level, but I can tell he doesn’t think she’s above the rules or has a different psychology than girls. This isn’t like Mystery’s “The One”.

    ————————————————————

    “It jumps the shark. He’s no longer a regular guy but has status, a following, and likely more money why quit the other job? , or a better lifestyle if not more money. Lifestyle seduction, however, is AFC seduction, not pickup.”

    So, he’s not a regular guy anymore. He had the skillset before Pickup101, a relatively new company, and before guru status, and can still demonstrate the skillset without mentioning this “guru status”.

    I’ve seen him demo in field. I’ve bumped into him in SF on weekends. He can do this.

    He definitely quit his old job. It’d be impossible to manage both. I think you have the wrong image of what his is like. The impression I got from the workshops is that the instructors bust their assess for the company. They’re not rolling in dough.

    ———————————————————–

    “It’s also not abuout using money to get an LTR like an AFC would, either.”

    It can be about an M/LTR. Everyone has different goals. AFC is not a medical or psychlogical term based experiments. It’s something the community came up with.

    If somehow some of his behavior falls under the AFC definition which I don’t think it does , then I think the definition needs to be revised. There’s nothing wrong with eventually wanting to settle down with a girl after having sex with and dating many many women .

    I don’t know if that’s his plan, but I know he’s plan but don’t fault someone for if it is. And MLTR isn’t AFC.

    ———————————————————–

    “Cool when getting paid and getting one’s way proves nothing.”

    -I’m not really sure what you mean, there.

    ———————————————————–

    “Their customers are providing money and status, which attracts women. In fact, since women are at the seminars, the customers are giving their money indirectly to these WOMEN. That’s what AFC chumps do.

    -Uhhhh….I think there’s deeper issues going on with you. I’m not living my life to hate women or always thinking about how not to give in to them or whatever mentality that quote reflects. I enjoy women, on many levels.

    ———————————————————–

    Musings on his g/f cheating with Mystery and what community theory says about it

    -That’s assuming she’s not allowed to date other guys and maybe Mystery could. I don’t know. Who cares. And it’s not inconceivable that some community theory is wrong. Think of how much scrutiny, controlled experiments, peer reviewing by PhDs mainstream psychological theory goes through and sometimes it’s still wrong or we find a deeper truth.

    ———————————————————-

    About Yuko not divulging all in the magazine article

    Who pays for this? The students. Literally.”

    So, what? It’s a business. Refer to previous replies on this. And Yuko is smart not to get into more details. The more you tell the media the more they can spin it their way.

    **********You have some weird thoughts on this and I know a number of them to be completely wrong, so that makes me question other statements you make that I don’t know as much about. **********

    ————————————————————

    “Lance gets his money from men he teaches how to get women.
    Women like guys with money.”

    Okay, so this is basically what you’re saying over and over.
    The simple replies are:
    -DUH, no one cares.
    and
    -Yeah, but he can do it without the money.

    So, what’s left to complain about?

    ————————————————————-

    “People have broken some serious laws in competing against me. In many places my message is banned, and people don’t even get the full picture. When all else fails, censorship is the last resort.”

    -What does that have to do with Pickup101 classmates having taken many seminars and deciding this one gave them the best results. The topic wasn’t competition with you, rather knowing how to decide who good instructors are.

    ————————————————————

    “More like something REAL is at stake, so you get a REAL response, instead of some hired gun paid to be nice to some loser AFC who is paying $1,700 to try to be a man.”

    -But why go for lower quality feedback? These guys have the money to pay. I’ve heard real girls give real feedback on the street during the workshop too! It’s helpful, but also limited. Why not get both???

    ————————————————————

    “”And they’re NOT pivots, so chill out about your copyrighted word.”

    Never said anything about that, but it’s interesting you reacted that way.”

    That was pretty well implied you were refering to the paid girls as pivots.

    ————————————————————-

    “Do the students use the line “I’m like Hitch” to pick up?”

    -No, it was more like “Hi” or other fun ones if they wanted…least for daygame.

    ————————————————————–

    Four of my books are free on the web already. That’s all anyone gets out of me for free. How cute that you try to take the high road while pretending all the anonymous crap directed at me doesn’t exist.
    I don’t know what the anonymous stuff is. Honestly, I hadn’t heard of you until today. I only sporadically read comments and I haven’t in a looong time.

    I do, though, know YOU SEND OUT A REALLY WEIRD VIBE with your posts. I think that might be why people give you crap and exclude you from things or whatever else you were complaining about.

    ————————————————————–

    “Any guy who can blow $1,700 on a workshop plus travel and time costs already has the only thing he’ll ever need to get laid.”

    -Guys want much more than that. That’s why they pay.

  30. ForcedToRegister says:
    June 6, 2006 at 10:07 pm

    What was wrong with me? I was socially awkward, but I’ve gained a whole lot of momentum from the workshop and things in all areas of my life are changing. Why are you going on about chess stuff so much?

    And you’re right, I don’t know much about marketing. I do know as a consumer, though, that your posts give off a weird vibe.

    Almost like RJ’s. Like sour at the world and trying to hard. Yet, you say you have your method, so just relax and let your method work.

    **That comment about not wanting to give money back to women is weird. It rings of psychological issues. Red Flags.

  31. Blade says:
    June 7, 2006 at 12:29 am

    Ray, while I appreciate that you have all the insight of a cockroach on LSD, I think we ought to be clear about a few things here.

    - You do not pick up 10′s.. or 9′s… or 8′s… or even 7′s.

    - You are not successful with women at all.

    - You do not have any knowledge that anyone wants.

    - What are the odds you picked up an STD because you fucked a hooker and didn’t use protection? Pretty fucking high methinks. And that scenario would explain both your self-hatred and your hatred of women.

    Essentially your lack of success is self-evident. Why? Do you want to know why Ray lad?

    I’ll tell you why. Because you spend your days posting incessantly. You have too much time on your hands and you spend it trying to get a hard-on by stroking your internet e-penis. You are NOT getting laid.

    This is self-evident. You simply post pages and pages of dreck. That’s both obsessive and a clear sign you’re not getting any. For one, you’re simply too occupied by your online persona.

    Frankly, if you were getting pussy you wouldn’t be such an obsessive little asswipe. But you’re not, and thus you are.

    We know, that you want attention. You can’t get it in the real world, so you aim for it online. You are a powerless, ineffectual kickmonkey who is completely impotent in the real world.

    Yes, you’re transparent. Yes, we laugh at you all the time. Yes, your desperation shows through in every post.

    You have yourself a nice day Ray. Try going outside. Some sun outta tan up that lily white hide of yours.

  32. Iceman says:
    June 7, 2006 at 1:30 am

    Fucking hell. Who could actually be bothered to read each surgically dissected post the length of a thesis?

  33. Mischief says:
    June 7, 2006 at 3:06 am

    Ray,
    don’t ever call chess a sport again.

    Thanks in advance buddy.

  34. Mischief says:
    June 7, 2006 at 3:09 am

    ForcedToRegister, your first post above was very good.

    But hold on 1 damn second:

    What do you mean it’s not all about living in a trailer with my mom and some STDs?
    That’s been my goal since I started in this #@!~& community.
    And now that I’m close enough to almost taste it, you drop this bomb on me?

  35. Mischief says:
    June 7, 2006 at 3:16 am

    Iceman,
    present a 10,000 word thesis, eh?

    I’m on it!

    .
    .
    .
    … ah wait, shit, I forgot I have a serious backlog of jerking off I need to catch up on.
    Rain check?

  36. NlpRapist says:
    June 7, 2006 at 6:09 am

    I also don’t have students do my talking for me, and speak for myself. In fact, when my readers try to speak for me, I call them off and warn them not to do that, which is why you don’t see it from my end.

    Oh thats a riot..lol…do you, yourself believe the shit you spew out?

  37. gliblets says:
    June 7, 2006 at 7:01 am

    You know, one thing that I think has been missing from this forum lately is NEW MATERIAL. I mean, that’s kind of the point of a forum like this, isn’t it? To discuss new ways of improving our game? To that end, I would like to share with you a brand new opinion opener that I think you will like. With apologise to Style, I humbly present….

    THE KEYBOARD JOCKEY OPENER

    KJ: Hey guys, a quick question for you – Would you date a guy (point to self) who criticized everyone you were talking to in an attempt to get your attention?

    HB: Scram, jackass.

    KJ: Okay, cool, I can only stay a second. The reason I’m asking is I found a forum on the net that discussed seduction from a male perspective – Thundercats Seduction Lair (Yeah, I know it’s a silly name). Anyway, I had written a few poorly received ebooks on the subject of seduction and I thought I could use this forum as a great way to build publicity for my books. Unfortunately, I bored the tears out of everyone on the forum with thousand word, trifling, contentious rants so I didn’t actually generate any new business. But I did turn everyone there off to such a degree that no one visited the forum anymore – thus eliminating one more competitor! Soon there will be nowhere left to go to discuss seduction and my books will finally get the attention they deserve! What do you think of that?

    HB: (Shouting over the crowd) Security! Where the hell are the bouncers! (To Girlfriend) C’mon let’s get out of here – quick!

    (Note: Notice how I included some DHVs in the opener – I write my own crappy ebooks, I’m the AMOG of the forum.)

    Enjoy.

  38. InformPeople says:
    June 7, 2006 at 7:04 am

    Ray, the community is not a small market. Lance has 30 seminars a year, that is 30 x 10 guys on average x 1700 $ each…+ ebooks and DVDs sales. Do the math.

    And RJ makes more than that. So does David D. So does Mystery. So does Style. This is a multi-million dollars industry. You know that. I’m sure you dream all day long about what they’re making.

    Yet you want us to believe you are passing on this kind of money, waiting for the audience to grow bigger ? You just can’t be bothered to make a couple of petty millions, uh ?

    Fact : you failed in this market, Ray. Nobody wants you stuff. Sad but true.

    “Any guy who can blow $1,700 on a workshop plus travel and time costs already has the only thing he’ll ever need to get laid.”

    The statement of a bitter old man who never has had a genuine equal relationship with a smart woman. Poor you. Have fun at the strip club.

    We’re still laughing at you, Ray.

  39. hollow says:
    June 7, 2006 at 7:39 am

    Hi guys,
    I have a serious question to ask, that is not directly related to seduction.
    didn’t you notice a pattern?
    It seems that periodically, there will be a seduction guru that will appear on this blog and animate the discussion with his extremely unpopular comments.
    first it was Ross Jeffries, then Elvis Preston King and now it seems that every thread on this blog has its own Ray Gordon’s comment.
    Is it me turning paranoid or is it another lame thundercat’s marketing technic?
    hey thundy! are you paying these guys to show on your site to create a polemic and make your site popular while giving them a free popular support for their merchandise? if it isn’t the case and yuo find the idea attractive please share some royalties with me.
    I don’t mean to be offensive but since the Annihilation Method fiasco I lost my respect for you.

  40. NlpRapist says:
    June 7, 2006 at 8:02 am

    Hollow,

    I’m sure Thundy is ALLOWING Ray to post just because he stirs up a hornets nest with his ramblings.
    Otherwise this board would have even fewer posts since he started moderation.
    I assure you that no one in the community has any postive dealings with Ray, hense no paying Ray to post.

  41. vir says:
    June 7, 2006 at 10:33 am

    “Frankly, if you were getting pussy you wouldn’t be such an obsessive little asswipe. But you’re not, and thus you are.”

    That cracked me up. Thanks.

  42. Ray Gordon says:
    June 7, 2006 at 11:38 am

    “Ray, the community is not a small market. Lance has 30 seminars a year, that is 30 x 10 guys on average x 1700 $ each…+ ebooks and DVDs sales. Do the math.”

    Rich guy gets laid: film at 11.

    “And RJ makes more than that. So does David D. So does Mystery. So does Style. This is a multi-million dollars industry. You know that. I’m sure you dream all day long about what they’re making.”

    He’s sure because HE is obsessed with money so he assumes everyone else is.

    “Yet you want us to believe you are passing on this kind of money, waiting for the audience to grow bigger ? You just can’t be bothered to make a couple of petty millions, uh ?”

    Never said that, but he apparently needs a straw man to deflect from whenever I point out that many gurus are getting women with student money, not “game.”

    How would he know what these guys make if he’s not associated with them anyway?

    “Fact : you failed in this market, Ray. Nobody wants you stuff. Sad but true.”

    That’s libelous. People forget because they see others flaming intensely that even a remark like that can lead to a lawsuit.

    >”Any guy who can blow $1,700 on
    >a workshop plus travel and time
    >costs already has the only thing
    >he’ll ever need to get laid.”

    “The statement of a bitter old man who never has had a genuine equal relationship with a smart woman. Poor you. Have fun at the strip club. We’re still laughing at you, Ray.”

    I must have hit quite a nerve by focusing on the edge the gurus get from their money for someone to lash out like that.

    Rich guy gets laid: film at 11.

  43. Truffaut says:
    June 7, 2006 at 11:39 am

    Blade, that was the best psychoanalysis of Ray Gordon I’ve ever read!

  44. NlpRapist says:
    June 7, 2006 at 11:56 am

    Fact : you failed in this market, Ray. Nobody wants you stuff. Sad but true.”

    That’s libelous. People forget because they see others flaming intensely that even a remark like that can lead to a lawsuit.

    Can you bring any people to this board that will support otherwise?
    Like maybe just ONE student?
    If not then one could conclude you are a failure in seduction if you can’t produce anyone that has or wants your stuff.
    That dude could make you produce them in court if you sued him.

    I must have hit quite a nerve by focusing on the edge the gurus get from their money for someone to lash out like that.

    Over and over you say this…so according to you all a guy needs is money to get laid. These guys aren’t wanting to do pickups in a whorehouse Ray.

    So if you have money, I guess with your method you go into a bar and wave a wad around and wait huh? Golddiggers…you know Ray, you are so fucking full of contradictions.
    Face it, you don’t know SHIT.

    Rich guy gets laid: film at 11.

    Ray DOESNT…hes broke, and by him you can’t get laid without money….shaking head….IDIOT.

  45. Ray Gordon says:
    June 7, 2006 at 11:57 am

    “Ray, while I appreciate that you have all the insight of a cockroach on LSD, I think we ought to be clear about a few things here. – You do not pick up 10′s.. or 9′s… or 8′s… or even 7′s.”

    He says this because he stalks me 24/7/365, of course.

    “- You are not successful with women at all.”

    He says this because he stalks me 24/7/365, of course.

    “- You do not have any knowledge that anyone wants.”

    When all else fails, libel.

    “- What are the odds you picked up an STD because you fucked a hooker and didn’t use protection? Pretty fucking high methinks. And that scenario would explain both your self-hatred and your hatred of women.”

    He should be careful with the STD flames, since several gurus have them, but he’d change his rules if that were pointed out.

    To him, anyone who doesn’t put women on a pedestal must “hate” them. And by “not putting them on a pedestal” I’m not talking about passing shit tests when they want to be called on their bullshit, but instead calling them on their real bullshit, like when they get hired only because of how they look, etc. (Mystery’s “hired gun” theory). A better term is “hired slut” since quality women don’t take jobs away from ugly women.

    That aside, I tend to be positive and very thankful I don’t have HIV. The way these players operate, they definitely put themselves at risk for it.

    “Essentially your lack of success is self-evident. Why? Do you want to know why Ray lad? I’ll tell you why. Because you spend your days posting incessantly.”

    Said the man who seems to watch my posts incessantly.

    “You have too much time on your hands and you spend it trying to get a hard-on by stroking your internet e-penis. You are NOT getting laid.”

    He knows this because he’s stalking me 24/7/365, obviously. Poor guy needs a life!

    “This is self-evident.”

    The way it’s self evident that gurus use student money to attract women and fund the lifestyle they find so attractive?

    Even the women are now getting a piece of the action, it seems.

    “You simply post pages and pages of dreck. That’s both obsessive and a clear sign you’re not getting any. For one, you’re simply too occupied by your online persona.”

    Funny how someone who claims to watch someone else online all day would talk about who has a life and who doesn’t.

    I know rich men hate hearing about what REALLY gets them their women, but if they can’t handle that truth, that’s no one’s problem but their own.

    Maybe he also types two words a minute, so he thinks a long post took a long time to write. I type 110 wpm.

    “Frankly, if you were getting pussy you wouldn’t be such an obsessive little asswipe. But you’re not, and thus you are.”

    Notice that the only people who talk like this are too scared to identify themselves, even when anonymous harassment is a felony in the US now.

    He must be REALLY bothered when I point out that these “seduction gurus” are using student money to fund their lifestyle that women find so appealing.

    Rich guy gets laid: film at 11.

    “We know, that you want attention. You can’t get it in the real world, so you aim for it online. You are a powerless, ineffectual kickmonkey who is completely impotent in the real world.”

    Said the man who lacks the balls to even sign his name or who would shit his pants before ever saying something like that to my face.

    “Yes, you’re transparent. Yes, we laugh at you all the time. Yes, your desperation shows through in every post.”

    We? Is this group harassment now? Or maybe he has DID.

    Hey, if you have DID, you are not alone.

    “You have yourself a nice day Ray. Try going outside. Some sun outta tan up that lily white hide of yours.”

    Perhaps he can one day get a life of his own rather than stalking me.

    Regardless, the FACT remains that these gurus are using student money to “fund their game.” They also use the status of being gurus. They’re even cutting the women in on the action now, so the women will obviously support what they’re doing, and the women have a lot of experience in separating loser AFCs from their money, now don’t they?

    As one guru said: “Loser AFCs pay my rent!”

    Rich guy gets laid: film at 11.

    (Funny how one guru’s income went through the roof when the topic switched from how much they make to measure whether they are attracting golddiggers or not, to how successful they allegedly are in business)

  46. Ray Gordon says:
    June 7, 2006 at 12:09 pm

    >>>Fact : you failed in this market, Ray. Nobody wants you stuff. Sad but true.”
    That’s libelous. People forget because they see others flaming intensely that even a remark like that can lead to a lawsuit.>>>>>

    “Can you bring any people to this board that will support otherwise?
    Like maybe just ONE student? If not then one could conclude you are a failure in seduction if you can’t produce anyone that has or wants your stuff.”

    I’ve already had positive testimonials posted about many of my books. I don’t rely on them, because they are the favorite tool of scam artists. Anyone can manufacture positive reviews, and I believe that someone on this site accused a rather large company of doing something similar. Even non-manufactured reviews are still one person’s opinion and little more.

    I have four free books on my website for anyone who wants to try out my methods, and I’m 99 percent cheaper than a workshop and 50-70 percent cheaper than most other e-books, many of which people can buy through me and still get my stuff for free if they do.

    Lots of lawsuits have been won over remarks that understate someone’s following, audience, or customer base.

    “That dude could make you produce them in court if you sued him.”

    And once I do, I wouldn’t accept “my bad” as an apology or whatever, and would expect damages and costs.

    >>>I must have hit quite a nerve by focusing on the edge the gurus get from their money for someone to lash out like that.>>>

    “Over and over you say this…so according to you all a guy needs is money to get laid.”

    Money is a sure thing for men who want to get laid. This is obvious, since we have a sex industry. Even men who don’t directly hire prostitutes still wind up with women who have price tags.

    In FACT, every time someone speaks negatively of my income or living situation, they are admitting to themselves that they think men are losers if they aren’t earning good money. I counter by saying the man who gets laid without money has more game.

    Gurus who use student money (and of course the connections to famous people now) to get laid aren’t doing anything that hasn’t been done in LA, NYC and DC forever.

    Rich guy gets laid: film at 11.

    “These guys aren’t wanting to do pickups in a whorehouse Ray.”

    Whorehouses aren’t the only places where women are for sale. Women have price tags, and men who meet them are the ones they want. This is already known.

    In the case of the gurus, however, they are getting their money from their students, and then getting into AFC-style LTRs, in some cases where the women are using social proof to help prop up the guru so they can both reap financial rewards when the students buy in.

    This is NOT game.

    “So if you have money, I guess with your method you go into a bar and wave a wad around and wait huh? Golddiggers…you know Ray, you are so fucking full of contradictions.”

    Hey, if a guy needs to use money to get laid, so be it, but it’s not “game.” It’s using money or the fact that they have money to get laid.

    “Face it, you don’t know SHIT.”

    Obsess much?

    >>>Rich guy gets laid: film at 11.>>>>

    “Ray DOESNT…hes broke,”

    People wouldn’t even bother pointing that out if they didn’t judge others on how much money they have in the first place. Women engage in similar judgments.

    Rich guy gets laid: film at 11.

    ” and by him you can’t get laid without money.”

    Sure you can, but actually not having money is a better way to prove it than to have millions and swear up and down that some golddigging skank is with him for some other reason.

    I mean, how many HB10s swear up and down that their man is with them for something other than their looks?

    There’s a difference between a guru and a John who builds his game by being a guru, yet who acts like an AFC in his personal life (LTR, etc.) while claiming to teach pickup.

  47. Truffaut says:
    June 7, 2006 at 12:20 pm

    Ray Gordon, what is you web address? I want to check out your “products.”

    Also, why didn’t you respond to my post concerning you chess playing strength? I guess it hit a little too close to home. LOL

  48. Ray Gordon says:
    June 7, 2006 at 12:22 pm

    >”Any guy who can blow $1,700 on
    >a workshop plus travel and time
    >costs already has the only thing
    >he’ll ever need to get laid.”

    “-Guys want much more than that. That’s why they pay.”

    HBs want men to be into more than their bodies, but guess what?

  49. Ray Gordon says:
    June 7, 2006 at 12:28 pm

    >>>Ray Gordon, what is you web address? I want to check out your “products.”>>>

    “Also, why didn’t you respond to my post concerning you chess playing strength? I guess it hit a little too close to home. LOL”

    Actually, when someone libels me that badly (my last USCF rating was 1900, as anyone who did even basic research could attest), I usually just begin the paperwork to start suing them rather than appear beta by asking them to kindly stop lying about me. I had already corrected people who said this before, so my hand is being forced. I’m sure you were pretty fucking desperate to resort to such a libelous statement about me when the facts are so easy to find.

    My books can be found through a simple web search. Notice I don’t include my site in my sig. Funny how the guys who claim not to be in it for the money charge so much more than me and include their sites in their sigs.

  50. Ray Gordon says:
    June 7, 2006 at 1:01 pm

    >Also, why didn’t you respond to >my post concerning you chess
    >playing strength? I guess it hit
    >a little too close to home. LOL

    Funny how in chess, where one’s level of “game” is VERIFIABLE thanks to things like OFFICIAL RATINGS (my peak was higher than 90 percent of tournament players in the US, and that after two years of tournament play), you can’t rely on social proof, testimonials, women they are giving money to, or anything else to build one’s reputation.

    One has to actually have SKILL. You can’t win a chess game with a cheesy line or pattern, either.

    I know this is quite a quandry for you folks, since the battle plan for so long has been to try to discredit me through lies like this at every turn, no matter what I do.

    Years ago, I realized I could have cut the women in on the action and done exactly what many of these gurus do. Every “lifestyle” thing they are doing now is something I dismissed as phony when I began.

    I definitely agree that one makes more money playing that game, but that’s just a sad commentary on the AFC customer base that is so easily fooled by such things and who seem more inclined to part with their money if they think other AFCs have done so in the past, as if they are so desperate to associate with the rich that they will make them more rich just for the privilege.

    Sales in this industry are determined by just about everything other than product quality, as a recent “marketing experiment” proved, since nothing was known about the product before it was released. Perhaps that’s what the author was trying to prove, and I suspect his book will say what I’m saying here, only with much greater precision.

    As for the article in this thread, the author said his opinion of this stuff was changed by the comments of women who were benefitting financially from its teaching.

Newer Comments »

Speak Your Mind

Tell us what you're thinking...
and oh, if you want a pic to show with your comment, go get a gravatar!

CAPTCHA Image
*